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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rep View Post
    ...
    Watercare, in their wisdom, decided that this was all too expensive to operate given that the non-potable water was not metered (and thus they could not charge for it nor the wastewater charges based on metered water usage) so they simply did not construct the two tanks on land that the developer had sourced for them (that would have provided gravity feed to the downhill subdivision) and to ensure the detention ponds don't overflow, pump it to a stormwater discharge into the Waitemata Harbour. ...
    What a waste. You would think that a targeted rate could have been levied to pay for Watercare to provide the non-potable water service for the subdivision.

    Most cities have water sources some distance removed. I guess normally it is best to negotiate access without urgency and the assumed acquiescence of other parties. Maybe one day, the council will make rainwater collection tanks mandatory for all new dwellings to be used for outside or other appropriate purposes.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    Interesting outcome which i'm sure, had good intentions to lower the cost of water use in your sub-division. So what essentially happens is the water infrastructure was a waste ; probably lost through bureaucratic management.

    My uncle built his house in Auckland with full intention of not relying on the city water supply. He only pays the rates on the discharge of the water waste as his house sits on a filled water tank, some 10,000 L if I recall correctly, designed to collect rain water and supply drinking water in the house. He's been living in it for over 15 years so I assume he's earned a fair portion of the cost back. But the UV water filtration system is not cheap or perhaps.. not so effective (I had massive diarrhea 1 night drinking the tap water - when I should of boiled it). ....
    With my tank supply, in addition to the house filters, we have a kitchen tap with a good extra-fine filtering system. However during the Summer heat apart from tap water for boiling the kettle, but we buy bottled water for cleaning teeth and drinking - a reasonably expensive extra cost. I guess still not fool proof for getting rid of bacteria and nasties!
    Last edited by Bjauck; 18-05-2020 at 07:21 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    Interesting outcome which i'm sure, had good intentions to lower the cost of water use in your sub-division. So what essentially happens is the water infrastructure was a waste ; probably lost through bureaucratic management.
    It's essentially because Watercare would have to operate the system without a mechanism to charge for it and it would significantly reduce their income if the potable supply metered charge and the associated wastewater volumetric charge was not incurred. So rather than operate a system that reduces water consumption, avoids drinkable water being sprayed on gardens, washing cars and flushing toilets and reduces the impact on the marine environment, Watercare pump the treated rainwater to sea rather than provide it to the owners who paid for the system because making us pay for water makes them more revenue. And now have the gall to impose water restrictions because they squander water and have the Auckland Council blame the Waikato Regional Council.

    Also lots of sewage ends up going into the harbour every time it rains because of stormwater inflows into the wastewater system that canít cope. If homeowners and building owners had incentives to collect that rainwater then the peak flow would be reduced. About half of my roof ends up in a tank and even during winter when the tanks fill and I donít need them for the garden I tend to empty them into the stormwater or onto my lawn on sunny days to reduce the peak discharge because I understand the downstream effects.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    In Auckland wastewater is charged based on the % of water inflow via the meter . Think it is about 75%- so no matter where you divert 50% to a tank for watering the garden/lawn etc you still pay for it!
    The volumetric wastewater is based on 78.5% of the metered potable water usage. However, if you collect rainwater off the roof to divert into your tank this doesnít attract the volumetric charge and I can use to water the garden/lawn, wash my car, waterblast etc. if I do use it for the supply of my third pipe system (noting I would need a plumber to disconnect this permanently from the current potable water supply it is connected to or install a back flow prevention device) I can then flush my toilet without attracting a variable wastewater charge. Given the bungling of the use of the rainwater system as noted above, it give me the satisfaction to know Iím supplying them something to deal with without having to pay for it.

    When I used to live in Sydney during the big drought I was reported to the council several times for watering my garden or washing my car on the incorrect days (I also had a water tank underneath the floor of the house that collected all of the rainwater). The council official duly investigated and after a few times encouraged and then provided a sign saying that I had rainwater storage for my hoses. I was watering the front garden one day and guy walking along the footpath proceeded to lean over my front wall and tell me he was going to report - I asked him to back off the wall which he looked rather aggressive to until I told him to back off the wall and read the sign. He duly did so, nodded and walked off sheepishly.
    Last edited by Rep; 18-05-2020 at 07:30 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay View Post
    In Auckland wastewater is charged based on the % of water inflow via the meter . Think it is about 75%- so no matter where you divert 50% to a tank for watering the garden/lawn etc you still pay for it!
    That is good to know. My mind thought Auckland had both meters on the water going in and another meter on the out (i've been misinformed).

    @ Bjauck

    I guess there's probably no 100% foolproof way to be sure storage water can be super safe to drink out of the tap unless there's massive chlorination. Fancy UV systems? Fancy filtration? I dunno, I would be more willing to pay for the bottled water like yourself.

    The same uncle did say that there's an issue of running the house on rain collection water in the city. There's some clause in gov't that says "If there's a clean supply of water available, then THAT must be used as source for drinking water and must be connected". Something along the lines that a house can not exclusively be reliant on their rain water collection system for water supply ; and that it is all due to meeting the 'quality' standard of the water. Of course in rural areas there is no choice but it's interesting to hear the motive of the gov't wanting to enforce water supply on dwellings when there are options such as delivered bottled water available.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rep View Post
    It's essentially because Watercare would have to operate the system without a mechanism to charge for it and it would significantly reduce their income if the potable supply metered charge and the associated wastewater volumetric charge was not incurred. So rather than operate a system that reduces water consumption, avoids drinkable water being sprayed on gardens, washing cars and flushing toilets and reduces the impact on the marine environment, Watercare pump the treated rainwater to sea rather than provide it to the owners who paid for the system because making us pay for water makes them more revenue. And now have the gall to impose water restrictions because they squander water and have the Auckland Council blame the Waikato Regional Council.

    Also lots of sewage ends up going into the harbour every time it rains because of stormwater inflows into the wastewater system that can’t cope. If homeowners and building owners had incentives to collect that rainwater then the peak flow would be reduced. About half of my roof ends up in a tank and even during winter when the tanks fill and I don’t need them for the garden I tend to empty them into the stormwater or onto my lawn on sunny days to reduce the peak discharge because I understand the downstream effects.

    The volumetric wastewater is based on 78.5% of the metered potable water usage. However, if you collect rainwater off the roof to divert into your tank this doesn’t attract the volumetric charge and I can use to water the garden/lawn, wash my car, waterblast etc. if I do use it for the supply of my third pipe system (noting I would need a plumber to disconnect this permanently from the current potable water supply it is connected to or install a back flow prevention device) I can then flush my toilet without attracting a variable wastewater charge. Given the bungling of the use of the rainwater system as noted above, it give me the satisfaction to know I’m supplying them something to deal with without having to pay for it.

    When I used to live in Sydney during the big drought I was reported to the council several times for watering my garden or washing my car on the incorrect days (I also had a water tank underneath the floor of the house that collected all of the rainwater). The council official duly investigated and after a few times encouraged and then provided a sign saying that I had rainwater storage for my hoses. I was watering the front garden one day and guy walking along the footpath proceeded to lean over my front wall and tell me he was going to report - I asked him to back off the wall which he looked rather aggressive to until I told him to back off the wall and read the sign. He duly did so, nodded and walked off sheepishly.
    it goes to show how people are quick at making assumptions right off the bat, even for someone as close as being your neighbour.

    There's definitely a shortage of "Look before you ask" in this world.

    As for the Watercare... again no shortage of greed.

    Here in Christchurch I was about to build another house but the plans have been put on hold - perhaps after a couple of years, I may restart and consider rain water collection system. However, the section is on flat ground and i'm certain the water table is low (underground tank storage?).

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    What a waste. You would think that a targeted rate could have been levied to pay for Watercare to provide the non-potable water service for the subdivision.

    Most cities have water sources some distance removed. I guess normally it is best to negotiate access without urgency and the assumed acquiescence of other parties. Maybe one day, the council will make rainwater collection tanks mandatory for all new dwellings to be used for outside or other appropriate purposes.
    The scheme had $7.2m 'invested' in it - and that doesn't count the cost of the third pipe infrastructure that was put in place within the homes. At the time of their decision, Watercare stated that as the treated stormwater would not be treated to drinking water standards that it would put at risk the A Grade drinking water rating as apparently people can't be trusted not to drink out of the toilet or notice that every outside tap in Stonefields had a sign that the water from it is not safe to drink and that there would be a risk of inadvertent drinking from outside taps.

    They also tried to say that New Zealand doesn't have a regulatory framework to control cross-pipe contamination and that could lead to someone incorrectly plumbing a tap into the third pipe. I'm no plumber but every element of the piping system that used the third pipe (which is not unknown elsewhere in the world) was clearly marked with a purple coloured pipe and fittings - any competent plumber would have been aware of the third pipe when looking at the two water tobies (one blue for potable water and one purple for the third pipe).

    An article at the time had the following comments:

    "Stonefields, a village-style residential development in what was the Mt Wellington quarry, has branded itself with environmental "sustainability". The basis of that brand was a dual water supply. Every house built so far has both a drinking-water supply and a "third pipe", bringing surface water from a central reservoir to toilets and outside taps. The system may have saved water from the metropolitan supplier, Watercare Services, but saving water is not the supplier's prime concern...

    ...But few complaints have been heard from the residents since we reported Watercare has pulled the plug. Their third pipe now carries the same treated water as every other pipe.

    Thanks to the Waikato River, Auckland will never be short of water. There is no point conserving the water for its own sake if it must be replaced by a costly supply of inferior standard, no matter how interesting or exciting the environmental engineering involved.

    More water falls on Auckland than the city can use. Only a fraction of Stonefields' stormwater was to be channelled into the third pipe. Most would have drained to the Tamaki inlet. Reducing stormwater pollution of the sea around Auckland is the real challenge. Collecting tanks and treatment may be the answer, and if the water can be put to a cost-effective use, all the better. But recycling for a needless purpose at greater cost is not sustainable.
    Last edited by Rep; 20-05-2020 at 08:50 AM.

  7. #27
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    I am able to collect all shower water and water the garden by hand watering can over the summer, garden, vegs, flowers and fruit trees 120 + lts per day, adds upo but the real benefit is beating the A C at their game.

  8. #28
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    Default 18 reasons we have a water crisis

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12333838

    Very deep and troubling look into the water crisis which concludes with this is just the start of a very serious problem.

    I think heads need to roll and legislative changes need to be made.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12333838

    Very deep and troubling look into the water crisis which concludes with this is just the start of a very serious problem.

    I think heads need to roll and legislative changes need to be made.
    A perfect storm of causes!
    Why does the NZ Herald make so many items into powerpoint presentations. There is so much padding, photos, animated graphs and with just a thin ribbon of text in the centre of the page! It makes reading the article quite laborious.

  10. #30
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    Yes they sure made a meal of it but on the other hand I am very glad they did. Someone needs to be held accountable for this fiasco.
    No butts, hold no mutts, (unless they're the furry variety).

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    Yes they sure made a meal of it but on the other hand I am very glad they did. Someone needs to be held accountable for this fiasco.
    True - a good article but the viewer/reader has to work hard to read it to the end!

  12. #32
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    .................................................. ......
    Last edited by greater fool; 10-08-2020 at 01:33 PM.

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    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/06/1...e-the-water-is

    (may be behind the paywall)

    Have a sense of deja vu about the first part of the article but I'm glad that someone has brought this up.

    I have two rainwater tanks that don't need a building consent, neighbour consent or have boundary issues but it also means that I had to install two smaller tanks (and I think I can fit in a couple more although they aren't particularly attractive) but they are far less obtrusive than the fast growing tree on the boundary of a neighbour that keeps shading out my washing line and overhanging the fenceline - fortunately I have a ladder, a chainsaw and a legal right to trim that tree back to the boundary!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rep View Post
    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/06/1...e-the-water-is

    (may be behind the paywall)

    Have a sense of deja vu about the first part of the article but I'm glad that someone has brought this up.

    I have two rainwater tanks that don't need a building consent, neighbour consent or have boundary issues but it also means that I had to install two smaller tanks (and I think I can fit in a couple more although they aren't particularly attractive) but they are far less obtrusive than the fast growing tree on the boundary of a neighbour that keeps shading out my washing line and overhanging the fenceline - fortunately I have a ladder, a chainsaw and a legal right to trim that tree back to the boundary!
    Check


    2. Court of Appeal decision in Yandle v Done



    3. S. 333 PLA 2007



    4. s.334 ibid



    There was also a District Court decision in Krill v. Rampling [2016] NZDC 9207 which applied and followed Yandle but ordered the applicant to pay for the trees to come down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiora View Post
    Check


    2. Court of Appeal decision in Yandle v Done



    3. S. 333 PLA 2007



    4. s.334 ibid



    There was also a District Court decision in Krill v. Rampling [2016] NZDC 9207 which applied and followed Yandle but ordered the applicant to pay for the trees to come down.
    Neighbouring property is rented. The tree tends to grow over my fence and another neighbour. Iíve pruned the tree a few times back to boundary on my side as well as (with permission) on behalf of my neighbour who is usually more than happy for me to prune it back to her boundary.

    I could serve a PLA notice but itís cheaper and more expedient to just trim branches and the roots.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rep View Post
    Neighbouring property is rented. The tree tends to grow over my fence and another neighbour. Iíve pruned the tree a few times back to boundary on my side as well as (with permission) on behalf of my neighbour who is usually more than happy for me to prune it back to her boundary.

    I could serve a PLA notice but itís cheaper and more expedient to just trim branches and the roots.
    If you have even a reasonably good relationship with the neighbour, it's best to preserve it by trimming the tree on your boundary yourself. Neighbourhood disputes can get ugly and costly, and we've seen a significant rise in our neighbourhood since the PM encouraged people to dob in thy neigbhour. A few are abusive towards each other.

  17. #37
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    Heads need to roll. Water"care" has been anything but careful. Gross incompetence by their top executives https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12340116

    All this filthy weather in Auckland and the dams have only gone from 42% to 44%. It doesn't look good at this stage ! https://www.watercare.co.nz/
    Last edited by Beagle; 15-06-2020 at 07:23 PM.
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  18. #38
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    Watercare

    Even if the Waikato River take was increased tomorrow, Watercare can't treat the currently consented take of 175 million litres a day as the treatment plan hasn't got the capacity for it. The treatment plant at Tuakau would need a capacity upgrade to be able to handle their current take (which is scheduled to be completed in August) let alone if the consented take was increased.


    https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/300...n-auckland-dam

    I'd heard rumours about this from some good sources - there's an existing Watercare Dam in the Hunuas that was built in 1967 that they haven't used since 2005 (which presumably is pretty full). Whilst it is the smallest dam in the Hunuas it holds 1.1 gigalitres of water - but Watercare decided it wasn't worth upgrading the Papakura Treatment Plant and decided it didn't need the dam from a supply point of view. It could supply 6 million litres a day (in context that's about 1/3rd of the requested daily savings that households are supposed to make under the current water restrictions). But they can't bring the dam on stream immediately because they have to spend nearly $58m to bring it back on line by building a new treatment plant.

    But don't worry there's a new reservoir in Pukekohe that will handle 50 million litres in August. I let you do the math on 1.1 gigalitres vs 50 million litres - clue 1.1 times 10 to the power of 9 vs 5 to 10 to the power of 7. And there will be a new treatment plant in Onehunga, another bore in Pukekohe and the plans to upgrade the Tuakau plant to treat Waikato River water.

    Would you not expect with rising population and climate models that it would be desirable to add some resilience into the water supply system by upgrading the Papakura treatment plant but Watercare's modelling said she'd be right until 2028- instead we are in the situation now that the Mayor and Watercare expect businesses coming out of COVID to plan for water restrictions? Really?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12332146
    Last edited by Rep; 26-06-2020 at 11:40 AM. Reason: clarify Tuakau capacity and we'd be okay until 2028

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rep View Post
    ...

    Would you not expect with rising population and climate models that it would be desirable to add some resilience into the water supply system by upgrading the Papakura treatment plant but Watercare's modelling said she'd be right until 2028- instead we are in the situation now that the Mayor and Watercare expect businesses coming out of COVID to plan for water restrictions? Really?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...ectid=12332146
    Unfortunately, it is the usual ambulance at the bottom of the cliff response. The last couple of decades, It looks like there has been a disconnect and lack of co-operation between central and local government. Central government opened up NZ to a liberal immigration environment to bring in young adults to help bolster the workforce to support the aged and ageing NZers. However there had not been a well-funded co-ordinated and concerted plan to ensure that services and infrastructure were supplied to the places these new residents settle.

    Add to that the impact of climate change and the need to respond to swings in weather and rainfall patterns, then a concerted approach from both central and regional government for managing supplies in needed.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 27-06-2020 at 10:02 AM.

  20. #40
    Hunting for more dog food Beagle's Avatar
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    https://www.watercare.co.nz/

    Lot of rain this week, (2 weeks of normal rain in one day on Wednesday and a lot more yesterday). Dams were around ~ 45% at the start of this week and are now pushing 54%, up ~ 9% just this week !!

    Ground is now saturated so with more showers forecast for the next 3 days we should see a lot of whatever rain falls in the catchment areas run off into the dams.
    No butts, hold no mutts, (unless they're the furry variety).

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