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  1. #1
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    Default End of life bill

    Iím sure itís hard for a lot of people who have little or no experience with loved ones dying, but for those that do and for those who will, we have an important choice to make at the next election.

    Do we choose to enable in law the right to choose when we end our life, or not and do the hard yards to death because there is no other option.

    I donít mean to be morbid but thereís a few folks here who donít need to make this decision right now but might want to in the no so distant future.

    Two months ago we knew our mother will die from terminal illness. But we had a lovely time together, reliving our times together, it has been and was really fabulous.

    A week ago itís turned for the worseVery quickly, into hospital. If only I could have asked her then while she was fully aware, whether She would rather choose to go. The law says she has no choice.

    This week sheís unable to communicate and going out the hard way. Itís so depressing, but not because she is dying, itís because neither she or we have any choice. Her rights to decide how her Life ends are disregarded as they are not an option.

    Tonight or tomorrow, maybe the next day or the day after that, she will be dead, the hard way. And it is hard, I know she is heartbroken so extremely vulnerable and so powerless over her fate.

    My mum would be just so devastated to know these circumstances were her end. I know she would choose Ďchoiceí and she would have made that choice, avoiding this terrible awful respite end to her life.

    I hope you all think fully and carefully about your choice on the end of life bill. Put yourself into the prime position, what would you choose? Put yourself into the support for a loved one, what would you hope they choose?

    Vote with clarity and clear conscience.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    I’m sure it’s hard for a lot of people who have little or no experience with loved ones dying, but for those that do and for those who will, we have an important choice to make at the next election.

    Do we choose to enable in law the right to choose when we end our life, or not and do the hard yards to death because there is no other option.

    I don’t mean to be morbid but there’s a few folks here who don’t need to make this decision right now but might want to in the no so distant future.

    Two months ago we knew our mother will die from terminal illness. But we had a lovely time together, reliving our times together, it has been and was really fabulous.

    A week ago it’s turned for the worseVery quickly, into hospital. If only I could have asked her then while she was fully aware, whether She would rather choose to go. The law says she has no choice.

    This week she’s unable to communicate and going out the hard way. It’s so depressing, but not because she is dying, it’s because neither she or we have any choice. Her rights to decide how her Life ends are disregarded as they are not an option.

    Tonight or tomorrow, maybe the next day or the day after that, she will be dead, the hard way. And it is hard, I know she is heartbroken so extremely vulnerable and so powerless over her fate.

    My mum would be just so devastated to know these circumstances were her end. I know she would choose ‘choice’ and she would have made that choice, avoiding this terrible awful respite end to her life.

    I hope you all think fully and carefully about your choice on the end of life bill. Put yourself into the prime position, what would you choose? Put yourself into the support for a loved one, what would you hope they choose?

    Vote with clarity and clear conscience.
    So sorry to hear this Baa_baa. It sounds like your Mum has a loving family around her and right at the end I think this is what counts the most. So a tough last few days for you all, although having been through circumstances with older close family members myself, there should be no reason for your Mum to be in pain at the end, even under current law.

    It is natural to think of the 'End of Life' bill and how it relates to ones own circumstances. However, this legislation relates to all circumstances of all people. So I think you need to have that holistic overview when faced with the referendum question. The particular circumstances of those suffering a mental illness compounded by a physical condition is of concern to me. I understand that if you choose to die, under the bill as it is written now, there is a very short cooling off period to the extent that you can claim your own life in a matter of days, without even close relatives bring informed of the situation. So while my own case where I am thinking of with my own family member is somewhat akin to yours, I will be voting AGAINST this legislation. It is not sufficiently well drafted to account for the swinging mindset that some mental conditions impose.

    SNOOPY

    P.S. Thinking of you and your family over this tough few days.
    Last edited by Snoopy; 22-08-2020 at 08:29 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    Iím sure itís hard for a lot of people who have little or no experience with loved ones dying, but for those that do and for those who will, we have an important choice to make at the next election.

    Do we choose to enable in law the right to choose when we end our life, or not and do the hard yards to death because there is no other option.

    I donít mean to be morbid but thereís a few folks here who donít need to make this decision right now but might want to in the no so distant future.

    Two months ago we knew our mother will die from terminal illness. But we had a lovely time together, reliving our times together, it has been and was really fabulous.

    A week ago itís turned for the worseVery quickly, into hospital. If only I could have asked her then while she was fully aware, whether She would rather choose to go. The law says she has no choice.

    This week sheís unable to communicate and going out the hard way. Itís so depressing, but not because she is dying, itís because neither she or we have any choice. Her rights to decide how her Life ends are disregarded as they are not an option.

    Tonight or tomorrow, maybe the next day or the day after that, she will be dead, the hard way. And it is hard, I know she is heartbroken so extremely vulnerable and so powerless over her fate.

    My mum would be just so devastated to know these circumstances were her end. I know she would choose Ďchoiceí and she would have made that choice, avoiding this terrible awful respite end to her life.

    I hope you all think fully and carefully about your choice on the end of life bill. Put yourself into the prime position, what would you choose? Put yourself into the support for a loved one, what would you hope they choose?

    Vote with clarity and clear conscience.
    Hold onto those wonderful memories and the fact that you had a fabulous time over the past 2 months.
    Hospitals generally are not one of the places I would choose to die.
    Hospice beds or home are usually very peaceful ways to pass away .
    Hospice nurses and doctors and most gp,s can enable a quicker and more peaceful death under existing legislation .We are allowed to use medication that relieves symptoms and sometimes these may hasten death without directly killing.
    Seldom is a request to relieve symptoms denied-you may have to push a bit in a hospital if you feel she is suffering.
    I really hope your mother passes peacefully and you hold no regrets.

  4. #4
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    Yes, went through this my Dad late last year and starting this process with my mum. With both of them I know they would have liked the choice. It has been an eye opener how we adapt to circumstance as people in our final stages of life, both have lived long full lives and both were well prepared for their passing. Their only fear was the final chapter and possible pain and suffering.

    Thoughts with you.

  5. #5
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    Will you vote YES for 'choice' or vote NO for 'no choice'. It's about individual choice, which currently you don't have.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/3001...of-our-society

  6. #6
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    Hi Baa Baa,

    My sincere sympathy mate, sounds tough. I agree people should have the choice. I dread what you and your family are going through...I dread it every day and feel the clock ticking down. I am on the same journey with my Mum who was diagnosed with terminal liver cancer in early July and given 5-8 months to live as at 9 July, (now 2.5 - 5.5 months). Since then like you and your family we have been meeting up heaps reminiscing about old times and its been wonderful to hear my Mum talk about her early days before I was born and talk about our time together as a family. It is a special time and we feel very blessed to have had this time together and opportunity.

    She turned 91 yesterday and we made quite a fuss but I feel the weight of the future bearing down on me knowing what's coming. The good news is major advances in pain management have been made and hospices are better than they used to be 20 years ago...but I am with you mate 100%, people deserve the right to choose, subject to all the necessary checks and balances.

    I asked my Mum if she'd like the choice if the time comes and the pain is severe and she said yes. I asked her yesterday if she could would she flick the 91 around the other way and go back to 19 and start over again would she ? No I've seen enough I'm ready for heaven told me. If I'm a good dog I might get to see her there in due course.

    Stay strong mate.
    Best wishes
    Roger
    Last edited by Beagle; 27-09-2020 at 08:10 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    I’m sure it’s hard for a lot of people who have little or no experience with loved ones dying, but for those that do and for those who will, we have an important choice to make at the next election.

    Do we choose to enable in law the right to choose when we end our life, or not and do the hard yards to death because there is no other option.

    I don’t mean to be morbid but there’s a few folks here who don’t need to make this decision right now but might want to in the no so distant future.

    Two months ago we knew our mother will die from terminal illness. But we had a lovely time together, reliving our times together, it has been and was really fabulous.

    A week ago it’s turned for the worseVery quickly, into hospital. If only I could have asked her then while she was fully aware, whether She would rather choose to go. The law says she has no choice.

    This week she’s unable to communicate and going out the hard way. It’s so depressing, but not because she is dying, it’s because neither she or we have any choice. Her rights to decide how her Life ends are disregarded as they are not an option.

    Tonight or tomorrow, maybe the next day or the day after that, she will be dead, the hard way. And it is hard, I know she is heartbroken so extremely vulnerable and so powerless over her fate.

    My mum would be just so devastated to know these circumstances were her end. I know she would choose ‘choice’ and she would have made that choice, avoiding this terrible awful respite end to her life.

    I hope you all think fully and carefully about your choice on the end of life bill. Put yourself into the prime position, what would you choose? Put yourself into the support for a loved one, what would you hope they choose?

    Vote with clarity and clear conscience.
    Baa, you have my empathy at this time, our family has been through similar in recent years and I was hesitant to respond but feel I need to.

    Firstly, this proposal isn't about when we end our life, but when someone ends it for us. It is an important distinction.

    Death isn't something new to us, why is it suddenly now that we should be considering this? If anything there is less need of it than even 30 years ago, let alone centuries.

    The professions that have strongly advocated against this Bill see beyond the emotion, to the inevitable problems that will arise around vulnerable people. The point that surely no one can argue with, being that the priority must be that we have equitable palliative care available to all, rather than a cheaper, easier option of ending lives, appears to be falling on deaf ears amongst many politicians. No surprises there.

    Admittedly, no one is guaranteed an easy death. Nor are they guaranteed an easy life. A civilised society bears the responsiblity of endeavouring to look after and value its most vulnerable. It is an often quoted definition of a decent society.

    The anti campaign have run some very compelling stories of people who were diagnosed with terminal illnesses and would have qualified to be euthanaised under this legislation. Many years later they are still alive. People in such situations aren't likely to be making rational decisions.

    I hope your family pulls together during this time with your Mum. I recall the period we went through with a lot of mixed emotions, but an enduring reinforcement of family bonds and an outpouring of love for our Mum in her last days. Kia Kaha.

  8. #8
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    Baa Baa Thanks for starting this thread. It is not an easy subject to discuss and think about.

    I know that if I had a painful terminal illness I would like the choice of ending my life.

    I think that those who are concerned that the bill does not have enough safeguards are insulting our health professionals. They are a group of highly dedicated people who daily make difficult decisions and judgement calls. There are rare cases of rogue behaviour and those people disciplined. While some health professionals oppose the bill there are many who support it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    Baa Baa Thanks for starting this thread. It is not an easy subject to discuss and think about.

    I know that if I had a painful terminal illness I would like the choice of ending my life.

    I think that those who are concerned that the bill does not have enough safeguards are insulting our health professionals. They are a group of highly dedicated people who daily make difficult decisions and judgement calls. There are rare cases of rogue behaviour and those people disciplined. While some health professionals oppose the bill there are many who support it.
    At the risk of being blunt moka, you have that choice now. What you don't have is the ability to demand someone else do it for you. I use the word demand deliberately. If passed into law, euthanasia will be seen as a human right.

    As for insulting health professionals, among the biggest concerns I have seen expressed from them, has been the subtle messages and coercion that are relayed to the patient, who is already in a vulnerable position, possibly by health professionals, but equally likely by family members and society in general. There is no plausible way to safeguard against this. It will occur and be often, impossible to detect.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    At the risk of being blunt moka, you have that choice now. What you don't have is the ability to demand someone else do it for you. I use the word demand deliberately. If passed into law, euthanasia will be seen as a human right.
    It's not that simple, 'to demand and get'. Basically as the Bill stands now after tireless consultations and numerous changes, one requests assisted death from their health professional and if they agree, a second health professional must also assesses the request. If they both agree then technically they have made the decision that the person is allowed an assisted death. The health professionals also have the right to decline to assess the request for assisted death and/or decline to administer an assisted death.

    Firstly it's all about choice. If we vote NO and the Bill does not pass, we are denying peoples' rights to make a choice. If we vote YES and the Bill does pass, we are enabling choice, that people and health professionals can choose to uptake assisted death, or not. It becomes a choice whereas now there is no choice.

    Is it perfect? Well of course not, no law is perfect or fits the ideals, rights and beliefs of all people. But law and process can be improved over time. Currently there is no choice, we must first decide whether we vote YES to enable choice, or NO to deny choice. I do not feel that it is right to deny choice. I will vote YES for the rights to choice.

  11. #11
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    No brainer for me.

    Lost both my dad and brother to cancer the last two years. The last week of both their respective lives and the way they were made to suffer was nothing short of cruelty.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    It's not that simple, 'to demand and get'. Basically as the Bill stands now after tireless consultations and numerous changes, one requests assisted death from their health professional and if they agree, a second health professional must also assesses the request. If they both agree then technically they have made the decision that the person is allowed an assisted death. The health professionals also have the right to decline to assess the request for assisted death and/or decline to administer an assisted death.

    Firstly it's all about choice. If we vote NO and the Bill does not pass, we are denying peoples' rights to make a choice. If we vote YES and the Bill does pass, we are enabling choice, that people and health professionals can choose to uptake assisted death, or not. It becomes a choice whereas now there is no choice.

    Is it perfect? Well of course not, no law is perfect or fits the ideals, rights and beliefs of all people. But law and process can be improved over time. Currently there is no choice, we must first decide whether we vote YES to enable choice, or NO to deny choice. I do not feel that it is right to deny choice. I will vote YES for the rights to choice.
    Exactly my thoughts for exactly the same reasoning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    It's not that simple, 'to demand and get'. Basically as the Bill stands now after tireless consultations and numerous changes, one requests assisted death from their health professional and if they agree, a second health professional must also assesses the request. If they both agree then technically they have made the decision that the person is allowed an assisted death. The health professionals also have the right to decline to assess the request for assisted death and/or decline to administer an assisted death.

    Firstly it's all about choice. If we vote NO and the Bill does not pass, we are denying peoples' rights to make a choice. If we vote YES and the Bill does pass, we are enabling choice, that people and health professionals can choose to uptake assisted death, or not. It becomes a choice whereas now there is no choice.

    Is it perfect? Well of course not, no law is perfect or fits the ideals, rights and beliefs of all people. But law and process can be improved over time. Currently there is no choice, we must first decide whether we vote YES to enable choice, or NO to deny choice. I do not feel that it is right to deny choice. I will vote YES for the rights to choice.
    Why is this "Choice" a priority now, at this point in history, when we have the best palliative care in history?

    What has changed to make this "choice" necessary at this point in time?

    This law cannot be made perfect, that is the problem. Its mistakes are final. One of the strongest arguments against the death penalty is the same reason. It is something we can not afford to get wrong. This country already has an elder abuse problem. Why further enable it?

  14. #14
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    I am voting no. I haven't had any personal experience around it and I am unsure how many people this bill will even affect, I am assuming not many, but I would be concerned as older people can be pretty vulnerable and people who have just been diagnosed with a terminal illness won't exactly be thinking straight.

    I would hope authorities are lenient on offenders if it is shown it was a mercy killing rather than murder under the current law but it seems like a slippery slope to say it is OK to kill someone.

    You always have the choice to take a handful of pills if that is how you want to go. Why does it seem in a lot of these cases the dying patients don't make the choice while they can still do something about it. It sounds more like the surviving family not wanting to go through seeing someone they loved and respected go through a lot of pain and indignity rather then the dying person wanting to end it.

    Sorry if this opinion is insensitive to anyone on here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unhuman View Post
    No brainer for me.

    Lost both my dad and brother to cancer the last two years. The last week of both their respective lives and the way they were made to suffer was nothing short of cruelty.
    Hear hear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron View Post



    You always have the choice to take a handful of pills if that is how you want to go. Why does it seem in a lot of these cases the dying patients don't make the choice while they can still do something about it.
    Because under the present law a handful of pills isn't available. My mate did make the choice while he still could. He had to hang himself because he knew he wouldn't have a choice after he became physically incapable. It almost certainly hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davflaws View Post
    Because under the present law a handful of pills isn't available. My mate did make the choice while he still could. He had to hang himself because he knew he wouldn't have a choice after he became physically incapable. It almost certainly hurt.
    To be honest I have never considered how I might top myself I would have thought there would be better options than hanging. Asphyxiation by cars fumes might be easier for family members who find me. Maybe take up skydiving as a bucket list thing if your terminal, just don't tell anyone your not pulling the rip cord on your first solo jump. A google search brings up a number for lifeline so not much help there.

    No doubt your mate was in a tough spot but my concern is for the little old lady who "doesn't want to be a bother to anyone" and has a piece of **** whispering in her ear that she might be better off ending things.

  18. #18
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    It's obviously not important to some people, to actually inform themselves by reading the Bill and form an opinion. Preferring ignorance and conjecture makes your vote all the more inconsiderate and maybe you should just abstain from voting on something you know little or nothing about.

    • Suicide is not illegal.
    • Turning off life support is not illegal.
    • Denying life saving treatment is not illegal.
    • Refusing life saving treatment is not illegal.
    • Administering accelerant drugs is not illegal.
    • Comatosing a patient until death is not illegal.


    Choosing assisted death is illegal.

    Go figure.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    It's obviously not important to some people, to actually inform themselves by reading the Bill and form an opinion. Preferring ignorance and conjecture makes your vote all the more inconsiderate and maybe you should just abstain from voting on something you know little or nothing about.

    • Suicide is not illegal.
    • Turning off life support is not illegal.
    • Denying life saving treatment is not illegal.
    • Refusing life saving treatment is not illegal.
    • Administering accelerant drugs is not illegal.
    • Comatosing a patient until death is not illegal.


    Choosing assisted death is illegal.

    Go figure.
    Who are you addressing here Baa? I haven't seen any of those claims made here.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    Who are you addressing here Baa? I haven't seen any of those claims made here.
    Yeah, not you Jonu, I had the random thought reading Aarons posts, that there's probably heaps of people who will vote without having fully informed themselves. It is what it is eh.

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