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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    When New Zealand was a welfare state New Zealanders got lots of government help such as state housing, free tertiary education, State Advances loans, capitalizing the family benefit. And it was targeted mainly at white middle class. You not have benefited from any direct financial assistance from the government, but they did provide the infrastructure to help as many New Zealanders as possible succeed. And now those who have succeeded are reluctant to allow similar assistance through a welfare state to others, especially to Maori.
    Bollocks moka. Don't be rewriting history like that. A good proportion of houses in northland were built with Maori Affairs loans in the 60s (basically the same as the State Advances model). East Cape probably the same. All NZers were able to access free tertiary education, and huge numbers of Maori took up trade apprenticeships in the 60s and were housed in hostels in Auckland and Christchurch and other parts of the country.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonu View Post
    Bollocks moka. Don't be rewriting history like that. A good proportion of houses in northland were built with Maori Affairs loans in the 60s (basically the same as the State Advances model). East Cape probably the same. All NZers were able to access free tertiary education, and huge numbers of Maori took up trade apprenticeships in the 60s and were housed in hostels in Auckland and Christchurch and other parts of the country.
    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    A bit of a mind game there when you say Kiwi's (not just maori) think they are over represented in all the statistics you mention. You dismiss the fact that outcomes for Maori are worse in health, education and employment than for white New Zealanders.

    [/URL]
    moka, I have one simple question which I really appreciate if you can enlighten us on :

    NZ had to import workers by the hundreds of thousands from the Islands during the late 1960s and early 1970s to work in the factories and services industries - why weren't the Maori interested in those jobs?

    I worked in a car assembly plant which employed several hundred people on 2 shifts and there wasn't a single Maori in the workforce - just Pacific Islanders and Pakeha.

    What intrigued me at that time was that the plant was within walking distance from the huge state housing areas of Mt Wellington, Panmure and Glen Innes in Auckland, where to today, the tenants are predominately Maori.

    Genuine question and you may be able to help & put things in some perspective for us?
    Last edited by Balance; 04-11-2020 at 08:31 PM.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    moka, I have one simple question which I really appreciate if you can enlighten us on :

    NZ had to import workers by the hundreds of thousands from the Islands during the late 1960s and early 1970s to work in the factories and services industries - why weren't the Maori interested in those jobs?

    I worked in a car assembly plant and there wasn't a single Maori in the workforce - just Pacific Islanders and Pakeha.

    What intrigued me at that time was that the plant was within walking distance from the huge state housing areas of Mt Wellington, Panmure and Glen Innes in Auckland, where to today, the tenants are predominately Maori.

    Genuine question to try and put things in some perspective.
    A little more on that theme - I used to do a bit of Tramping and have walked almost every tramping track in the South Island, many several times. Our tracks attract people from all over the planet; I've encountered Canadians, Nth. and Sth. Americans , Australians, Germans, French, Asians, Swiss, Japanese, Irish, Sth. Africans and Poms to name a few. However I've yet to see a Maori out tramping. I often think of this when I hear about their special attachment to the land and bush. Amen.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    A little more on that theme - I used to do a bit of Tramping and have walked almost every tramping track in the South Island, many several times. Our tracks attract people from all over the planet; I've encountered Canadians, Nth. and Sth. Americans , Australians, Germans, French, Asians, Swiss, Japanese, Irish, Sth. Africans and Poms to name a few. However I've yet to see a Maori out tramping. I often think of this when I hear about their special attachment to the land and bush. Amen.
    There are certainly a lot of tracks n the South Island - you must be very fit. I presume that does not include hunting tracks?

    About 87% of the Maori population lives in the North Island. Compared with about 75% of the total population. So you would need to factor in the cost and time involved in inter-island travel?

    You have said that you are not "overly" racist and that you would certainly not criticise someone who was. Perhaps that has affected those you ended up talking to? If you also met other NZers, good on you if you asked whether they were of Maori descent or not.

    Is recreational tramping as important to Maori as it is for Americans and Brits for example (or the Americans and Brits who can afford to come to NZ and were attracted by NZ Tourism ads featuring outdoor adventures?)

    However I see you have phrased your post as a non-negotiable statement. "It is so."
    Last edited by Bjauck; 04-11-2020 at 07:37 PM.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    There are certainly a lot of tracks n the South Island - you must be very fit. I presume that does not include hunting tracks?

    About 87% of the Maori population lives in the North Island. Compared with about 75% of the total population. So you would need to factor in the cost and time involved in inter-island travel?

    You have said that you are not "overly" racist and that you would certainly not criticise someone who was. Perhaps that has affected those you ended up talking to? If you also met other NZers, good on you if you asked whether they were of Maori descent or not.

    Is recreational tramping as important to Maori as it is for Americans and Brits for example (or the Americans and Brits who can afford to come to NZ and were attracted by NZ Tourism ads featuring outdoor adventures?)

    However I see you have phrased your post as a non-negotiable statement. "It is so."
    My fitness days are gone sorry to say. No, I do not ask Nz'ers if they are of Maori descent. It reveals itself when talking to them. And as far as the cost of coming from the Nth. Island - all the French and Germans come from Europe. The land is just not important to Maoris obviously. I have asked several Nth Island tramping club members about this, and it appears they do not take to tramping there either. To generalise, they simply have no interest in the land or the bush unless hunting for something to kill which is a no-no on DOC tracks. I presume your last sentence refers to my amen ending, with which I framed the sentence. I don't know what phrasing my post means. Likewise I have no idea what amen means - but I use it, perhaps incorrectly, as an emphatic full-stop. 'The end.'

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    moka, I have one simple question which I really appreciate if you can enlighten us on :

    NZ had to import workers by the hundreds of thousands from the Islands during the late 1960s and early 1970s to work in the factories and services industries - why weren't the Maori interested in those jobs?

    I worked in a car assembly plant which employed several hundred people on 2 shifts and there wasn't a single Maori in the workforce - just Pacific Islanders and Pakeha.

    What intrigued me at that time was that the plant was within walking distance from the huge state housing areas of Mt Wellington, Panmure and Glen Innes in Auckland, where to today, the tenants are predominately Maori.

    Genuine question and you may be able to help & put things in some perspective for us?
    I wasn’t aware that NZ had to import workers by the hundreds of thousands from the Islands during the late 1960s and early 1970s to work in the factories and services industries. However the 1960s was full employment, easy to find jobs. Lots of Maori worked for the railways, Ministry of Works, driving trucks, so perhaps they preferred driving a truck or bulldozer to working in a factory, I would.

    https://teara.govt.nz/en/graph/24362...ment-1896-2006
    Graph of unemployment showing about 1% unemployment from 1946 to 1966. I think this is unemployment figures not benefit figures. There was a stigma attached to going on a benefit in those days.
    I wonder if there were many Maori living in those state houses back in the 1960s. I have talked to quite a few white middle class baby boomers who were brought up in state houses, with fathers in white collar jobs, which surprised me.

    https://nzhistory.govt.nz/culture/we...king-ends-meet
    State housing has at various times discriminated against particular groups within society. Premier Richard Seddon had decreed that workers' dwellings would be built for (Pākehā) married couples with children; Māori, single people, and the elderly need not apply.
    The 1930s and '40s schemes also favoured nuclear families above others in society. Since the 1960s state housing has targeted the poor and those who face discrimination in the private rental market, including Māori, Pacific Islanders and solo mothers.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    A little more on that theme - I used to do a bit of Tramping and have walked almost every tramping track in the South Island, many several times. Our tracks attract people from all over the planet; I've encountered Canadians, Nth. and Sth. Americans , Australians, Germans, French, Asians, Swiss, Japanese, Irish, Sth. Africans and Poms to name a few. However I've yet to see a Maori out tramping. I often think of this when I hear about their special attachment to the land and bush. Amen.
    So if Maori don’t go tramping like Europeans do does that mean that they are in some way inferior?
    They go pig hunting, fishing, diving for sea food, play rugby. They don’t really do cricket though.
    Maori and Pacific Island men had traditionally been attracted to more physical sports, such as rugby union and rugby league said Adam Parore, the first Maori to play for New Zealand.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crowe-...ABGJNJ3SYAJMY/

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    However the 1960s was full employment, easy to find jobs. Lots of Maori worked for the railways, Ministry of Works, driving trucks, so perhaps they preferred driving a truck or bulldozer to working in a factory, I would. [/I]
    I think you have supplied the answer - government jobs were easy, paid well and very flexible - we know that in the 60s and 70s, the government departments & workforce were the least productive & inefficient part of NZ workforce.

    Guess the Maori never made the best of the period of unparalleled prosperity in NZ in the 60s and 70s. A great time to get educated, be healthy, buy homes and build up wealth when there was full employment and opportunities were aplenty.

    Whose fault was that?
    Last edited by Balance; 04-11-2020 at 11:09 PM.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    So if Maori don’t go tramping like Europeans do does that mean that they are in some way inferior?
    They go pig hunting, fishing, diving for sea food, play rugby. They don’t really do cricket though.
    Maori and Pacific Island men had traditionally been attracted to more physical sports, such as rugby union and rugby league said Adam Parore, the first Maori to play for New Zealand.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crowe-...ABGJNJ3SYAJMY/
    I don't know why you question if Maoris might be inferior. Is it something you just assume, or do you have some evidence? It's certainly never occurred to me.
    BTW I've never heard of anyone doing cricket. How does anyone do that?

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    I'd like to see how you'd survive the New York underground late at night if you don't have the ability to make judgements based on appearance.
    Since we are way off topic I might as well continue. You can’t judge by appearances as the case of serial killer Ted Bundy showed.

    Bundy was able to do what he did, get away with it for so long and become the subject of a series and film all these years later for a disturbing reason: He was a mild-mannered, well-educated, attractive white man.
    If you're an attractive white male, you get away with certain things. Media reports focus on the "oh but he's such a good guy" angle complete with "he would never do something like this" and "he had his whole life ahead of him".
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertain...MJO5ESGGYJ5GY/

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