Labour govt 2020-23

[jonu]

The rod Ardern has made for her own back is beginning to lash.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...?ocid=msedgntp

The expectations she has given to Maori in her efforts to sideline the Maori Party and hog the Maori seats, are beginning to paint her into a corner of her own making. It's only just getting a head of steam. This is where playing "Identity Politics" will lead you. Down the rabbit hole of racism and discrimination.

By the way, I was royally screwed over by ACC but I don't fit the demographic her woke policies are directed at.

[jonu]

Marxism? Sure, most undemocratic systems tend to behave that way (including some dictatorships who called themselves marxist), but what you are describing was and is typical for fascism and proto fascism (including Trumpism).

Maybe you should learn about history before embarrassing yourself.

Embarrass myself? I'm still waiting for your list of successful Communist regimes on the US Presidential thread. You know, where you defended the slaughterer Lenin and Communism in general. Too embarrassed to return to it perhaps?

You are a "bad faith" argument proponent BlackPeter. This has been demonstrated to you by another poster.

[fungus pudding]

The rod Ardern has made for her own back is beginning to lash.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/natio...?ocid=msedgntp

The expectations she has given to Maori in her efforts to sideline the Maori Party and hog the Maori seats, are beginning to paint her into a corner of her own making. It's only just getting a head of steam. This is where playing "Identity Politics" will lead you. Down the rabbit hole of racism and discrimination.

By the way, I was royally screwed over by ACC but I don't fit the demographic her woke policies are directed at.

'They are us' except when they're not.

[BlackPeter]

Embarrass myself? I'm still waiting for your list of successful Communist regimes on the US Presidential thread. You know, where you defended the slaughterer Lenin and Communism in general. Too embarrassed to return to it perhaps?

You are a "bad faith" argument proponent BlackPeter. This has been demonstrated to you by another poster.

Such a short post and still full of untruths. Is it you, Donald?

Show me one post where I mentioned (or defended) Lenin.

Show me one post where I said communism is a successful system.

I am saying that you don't understand communism. Most dictatorships are happy to suppress and kill people and to commit genocide. Has nothing to do with the tag they like to give themselves.

Fascists are killing people and committing genocides (Franco, Mussolini, Hitler), various religious regimes have killed people and committed genocides throughout history. Christians (look at the European history of e.g. the 30 year war or the time of the crusades), Moslems (e.g. Iran, Ottoman empire) as well as Budhists (Myanmar) used to kill and are killing and committing genocides and yes, communist (or so called communist) dictatorships did that as well (e.g. Sowjetunion as well as China, though - China is these days communist only by name).

Suppressing and killing people has not more to do with the ideas of communism as with religious faith. Only the fascists use it as part of their ideology.

Anyway - it was a mistake to take you so quick off the ignore list, you are now back where you belong ... no need to respond, unless you want to apologize for spreading porkies.

[jonu]

Such a short post and still full of untruths. Is it you, Donald?

Show me one post where I mentioned (or defended) Lenin.

Show me one post where I said communism is a successful system.

I am saying that you don't understand communism. Most dictatorships are happy to suppress and kill people and to commit genocide. Has nothing to do with the tag they like to give themselves.

Fascists are killing people and committing genocides (Franco, Mussolini, Hitler), various religious regimes are killed people and committed genocides throughout history. Christians (look at the European history of e.g. the 30 year war or the time of the crusades), Moslems (e.g. Iran, Ottoman empire) as well as Budhists (Myanmar) used to kill and are killing and committing genocides and yes, communists (or so called communist) dictatorships did that as well (e.g. Sowjetunion as well as China, though - China is these days communist only by name).

Suppressing and killing people has not more to do with the ideas of communism as with religious faith. Only the fascists use it as part of their ideology.

Anyway - it was a mistake to take you so quick off the ignore list, you are now back where you belong ... no need to respond, unless you want to apologize for spreading porkies.

Oh I'll reply alright.

Let's begin with post #4392 on the US Presidential thread

Incredibly stupid and ignorant post.

Sure - communist regimes all across the world inflected lots of pain on their own and other people, but this was not due to the teachings of Marx and Lenin, but because bad and evil people used their philosophy to abuse power. What e.g. Stalin and Mao did to their (and other) people had not more to do with communism than what crusades, witch hunts, inquisition and child abuse have to do with the Christian faith. Sure - communism does not work, this is true, but its teachings are not worse than e.g. the teachings of the Church.

Interesting side note - Stalin was educated in a seminar for catholic orthodox priests. Who was responsible for his murderous regime - communism or the Christian church?

Any extremists are bad, no question about that - but I can't see what e.g. was wrong with the democratically elected communist government in Chile which the US government choose to removed by supporting a undemocratic and cruel regime of the right wing crook Pinochet?

The enemy are not the communists, the enemy are extremists and bad people - and you find them in all undemocratic political movements as well as in most religions.




My emphasis in Bold. And you're telling me I don't understand Communism. The 20th Century taught us where Communism leads. A descent into moral and societal chaos, brutality, genocide and absolute State control.

[Panda-NZ-]

So your "effective solution" is to look after ourselves so well that we don't need to look after anyone else.

What are you on about now?

It's about removing welfare, and people actually wanting that, because its no longer needed for a biological issue.

It could reduce taxes down to 10% but I don't want that at all because I'm generally social democrat as the alternatives produce disaster every decade or so without an effective intervention.

[peetter]

Oh I'll reply alright.

Let's begin with post #4392 on the US Presidential thread

Incredibly stupid and ignorant post.

Sure - communist regimes all across the world inflected lots of pain on their own and other people, but this was not due to the teachings of Marx and Lenin, but because bad and evil people used their philosophy to abuse power. What e.g. Stalin and Mao did to their (and other) people had not more to do with communism than what crusades, witch hunts, inquisition and child abuse have to do with the Christian faith. Sure - communism does not work, this is true, but its teachings are not worse than e.g. the teachings of the Church.

Interesting side note - Stalin was educated in a seminar for catholic orthodox priests. Who was responsible for his murderous regime - communism or the Christian church?

Any extremists are bad, no question about that - but I can't see what e.g. was wrong with the democratically elected communist government in Chile which the US government choose to removed by supporting a undemocratic and cruel regime of the right wing crook Pinochet?

The enemy are not the communists, the enemy are extremists and bad people - and you find them in all undemocratic political movements as well as in most religions.




My emphasis in Bold. And you're telling me I don't understand Communism. The 20th Century taught us where Communism leads. A descent into moral and societal chaos, brutality, genocide and absolute State control.

I think it's pointless really to explain to him. He defended communism in so many post claiming we don't understand it and he does. You know, if he did it, it would definitely work...

Just look at his posts, it's hard to find some without mentioning Republicans in US, Trump or Boris Johnson. There are clearly some issues there.

[jonu]

I think it's pointless really to explain to him. He defended communism in so many post claiming we don't understand it and he does. You know, if he did it, it would definitely work...

Just look at his posts, it's hard to find some without mentioning Republicans in US, Trump or Boris Johnson. There are clearly some issues there.

Am inclined to agree. BP certainly has an unhealthy Trump fixation.

"...if he did it, it would definitely work". Bang on! BP is exactly the sort of person you don't want to be anywhere near running anything.

[BlackPeter]

Oh I'll reply alright.

Let's begin with post #4392 on the US Presidential thread

Incredibly stupid and ignorant post.

Sure - communist regimes all across the world inflected lots of pain on their own and other people, but this was not due to the teachings of Marx and Lenin, but because bad and evil people used their philosophy to abuse power. What e.g. Stalin and Mao did to their (and other) people had not more to do with communism than what crusades, witch hunts, inquisition and child abuse have to do with the Christian faith. Sure - communism does not work, this is true, but its teachings are not worse than e.g. the teachings of the Church.

Interesting side note - Stalin was educated in a seminar for catholic orthodox priests. Who was responsible for his murderous regime - communism or the Christian church?

Any extremists are bad, no question about that - but I can't see what e.g. was wrong with the democratically elected communist government in Chile which the US government choose to removed by supporting a undemocratic and cruel regime of the right wing crook Pinochet?

The enemy are not the communists, the enemy are extremists and bad people - and you find them in all undemocratic political movements as well as in most religions.




My emphasis in Bold. And you're telling me I don't understand Communism. The 20th Century taught us where Communism leads. A descent into moral and societal chaos, brutality, genocide and absolute State control.

OK - so I mentioned Lenin. Fair enough. However - you said in you post I "defended the slaughterer Lenin".

I didn't. I mentioned his teachings, which btw - have little to do with some of his actions.

You are spreading porkies again.

Donald, go home. You missed your chance to apologize ;

[FTG]

BP & Jonu,

From an observers perspective it appears that you are both throwing around "labels" with a little too much free abandon. Potentially indicating that there is scope to deepen your real understanding on what these labels actually mean. On a positive note, you both seemed to be interested and engaged with the political sphere (well, at least in a theoretical manner). So something to consider; perhaps you are looking at the "same thing" but have have quite a different understanding on what you think you are seeing?

So.....let me ask you. When you use the labels Communism & Fascism, what is the actual definition of those words that you are referring to. i.e What actually is Communism?
Once you clearly articulate here what these mean to you, then I suspect it's going to reveal to yourselves and everyone else here one of the reasons why you are going hammer & tongs at each other!

oh, and if you can try and keep your definitions succinct & rational, rather than waffly & passive agressive towards each other that would be great. :-)