Labour govt 2020-23

[Bjauck]

...
Google define civilisation and you will find various definitions similat to above. Your question - 'who was more civilised? ' It's a no-contest.

You answered a somewhat different question to the one I posed.

Cambridge dictionary: A civilized society or country has a well developedsystem of government, culture, and way of life and that treats the people who live there fairly
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...lish/civilized

So who failed that definition more abjectly?

[BlackPeter]

Certainly not the Maoris - which is not a criticism, but an observation. They lagged far behind most of the world in transport, science, communication and so much else that civilisation brought us; their political structure was tribal, they had no written language in much the same way as so much the world once lagged behind the mighty Roman Empire and their contribution to civilisation.
Stable food supply. Here are seven marks of a civilised society.
Social structure.
System of government.
Religious system.
Highly developed culture.
Advances in technology.
Highly developed written language.

Google define civilisation and you will find various definitions similat to above. Your question - 'who was more civilised? ' It's a no-contest.

I don't think this is the point.

Clearly - Maoris are (as a race) neither better nor worse than the Europeans, neither more nor less cruel than the Europeans ... they are just as human (with all the good, the bad and the ugly) as we all are (if we ignore for a couple of minutes the bots on some of the conspiracy threads ... .

And of course - they have been at the time Europeans arrived here in an earlier stage of their development (which is reflected in their level of "being civilised", like their form of "government", their norms and their technology at that time), not different to e.g. a bunch of Europeans would have been who started rowing 5000 years ago and ended up in a small group on some remote island without any contact to the rest of the world.

Our big technological advantage came not from being better or more intelligent in any way, shape or form, but from living on a continent with lots of other people. That's the thing - if you live together on a huge continent (Eurasia) with (over the centuries) tens and hundreds of millions of other people, than you need only one in say ten million with one good idea and everybody can (and does) copy it (like using a wheel for transport, using iron for tools, developing black powder for propelling bullets, developing better crops to feed your people, furthering medicine).

If you live however together with just some tens of thousand of people without communication to the rest of the world on a remote island, than the odds are not good that all the one in ten million geniuses you need to develop modern technology are part of your group - nothing to copy, and you stay behind.

Was it good for this group of people to be "colonized" by the people who happened to have the opportunity to copy good ideas form others due to growing up on the large continent? Well, it certainly helped them to further their technological development. Whether it did help them to further their well being is a different question ... and as discussed earlier, the answer to that is clearly very personal and subjective.

Quite amusing however when members of the occupiers try to tell the people who got occupied and cheated that clearly colonisation was good for them. Maybe, we should leave it to the Maoris to make this judgement call?

[Balance]

I don't think this is the point.

Was it good for this group of people to be "colonized" by the people who happened to have the opportunity to copy good ideas form others due to growing up on the large continent? Well, it certainly helped them to further their technological development. Whether it did help them to further their well being is a different question ... and as discussed earlier, the answer to that is clearly very personal and subjective.

Quite amusing however when members of the occupiers try to tell the people who got occupied and cheated that clearly colonisation was good for them. Maybe, we should leave it to the Maoris to make this judgement call?

You forgot to mention inbreeding because of the limited gene pool.

[fungus pudding]

You answered a somewhat different question to the one I posed.

Cambridge dictionary: A civilized society or country has a well developedsystem of government, culture, and way of life and that treats the people who live there fairly
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...lish/civilized

So who failed that definition more abjectly?

If you consider the synonyms and antonyms of civilised, you will agree with me that you failed.

What is the synonym of Civilised?
courtly, cultured, delicate, elegant, graceful, humane, nice, polite, refined, tender, urbane.

Antonyms: atrocious, barbarian, barbaric, barbarous, brutal, cruel, inhuman, merciless, rude, savage, uncivilized, uncouth, untamed.

[Getty]

I don't think this is the point.

Clearly - Maoris are (as a race) neither better nor worse than the Europeans, neither more nor less cruel than the Europeans ... they are just as human (with all the good, the bad and the ugly) as we all are (if we ignore for a couple of minutes the bots on some of the conspiracy threads ... .

And of course - they have been at the time Europeans arrived here in an earlier stage of their development (which is reflected in their level of "being civilised" like their from of "government", their norms and their technology at that time), not different te e.g. a bunch of Europeans would have been who started rowing 5000 years ago and ended up in a small group on some remote island without any contact to the rest of the world.

Our big technological advantage came not from being better or more intelligent in any way, shape or form, but from living on a continent with lots of other people. That's the thing - if you live together on a huge continent (Eurasia) with (over the centuries) tens and hundreds of millions of other people, than you need only one in say ten million with one good idea and everybody can (and does) copy it (like using a wheel for transport, using iron for tools, developing black powder for propelling bullets, developing better crops to feed your people, furthering medicine).

If you live however together with just some tens of thousand of people without communication to the rest of the world on a remote island, than the odds are not good that all the one in ten million geniuses you need to develop modern technology are part of your group - nothing to copy, and you stay behind.

Was it good for this group of people to be "colonized" by the people who happened to have the opportunity to copy good ideas form others due to growing up on the large continent? Well, it certainly helped them to further their technological development. Whether it did help them to further their well being is a different question ... and as discussed earlier, the answer to that is clearly very personal and subjective.

Quite amusing however when members of the occupiers try to tell the people who got occupied and cheated that clearly colonisation was good for them. Maybe, we should leave it to the Maoris to make this judgement call?

Do you concede the Europeans treated Maori a lot better, than Maori treated Moriori?

[BlackPeter]

You forgot to mention inbreeding because of the limited gene pool.

True ... but wasn't this the problem in the European royal houses as well?

And if you consider that all Caucasians can be genetically traced back to only 7 females some ten thousand of years ago (after the last ice age), than I am not sure it would be up to us to point with the finger, brother ;

And didn't mention somebody our "advanced" religion? If that would be the case than we are all brothers and sisters created by the inbreeding of Adam and Eve's children. Pretty disgusting and worst example for inbreeding anybody could think about.

Always good to be careful to point with the finger - it is always three fingers pointing back to you.

[Balance]

True ... but wasn't this the problem in the European royal houses as well?

And if you consider that all Caucasians can be genetically traced back to only 7 females some ten thousand of years ago (after the last ice age), than I am not sure it would be up to us to point with the finger, brother ;

And didn't mention somebody our "advanced" religion? If that would be the case than we are all brothers and sisters created by the inbreeding of Adam and Eve's children. Pretty disgusting and worst example for inbreeding anybody could think about.

Always good to be careful to point with the finger - it is always three fingers pointing back to you.

I am not pointing any fingers - simply pointing out the obvious.

[BlackPeter]

Do you concede the Europeans treated Maori a lot better, than Maori treated Moriori?

Not quite sure, whether the Moriori history is already fully researched and understood (if it is, than I don't know about it enough), but I am sure it is fair to say that

Some Europeans treated some Maori better than some Maori treated some Moriori.

I am however sure that it is as well true that some Europeans treated some Maori much worse than some Maori treated some Moriori.

There have been some good and decent Europeans as well as bad, and the same is true for the Maoris.

Generalisations are often convenient but always wrong ...

The other thing you need to consider is the time in which these things happened. Maoris have been quite lucky that Europeans discovered them rather late in history when humanistic ideas started to float around in Europe. Still hundred years before Europeans have been quite happy to capture and kill indigenous people at their whim (e.g. in Africa and / or the Americas) whenever it suited them unless they have been more useful as slaves.

[Balance]

https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...26-p58m8e.html

How the Aussies treated the aboriginal people during colonial times.

[JBmurc]

Nothing to be said about the Labour govt?

This thread seems to be drifting further and further away from its subject.

I heard this morning that Labour Blew 50mill+ on the cycleway bridge idea ... but they have no extra funds for core NZ needs ..nurse pay rise - phamac etc

I'd hate to know the total amount this Bunch of incompetents has blown on pet projects that never had a hope of going ahead ...and its not like its even our money as we had to borrowed 50Bill from the FED - JUNE21