Labour govt 2020-23

[Logen Ninefingers]

As I have pointed out to you and you failed to answer , pushing up interest rates isn't going to house the now 22,000 on the social housing waitlist.
Supply is the issue . It was a big issue when National had people in cars and the waitlist was 8000..... It's a lot bigger now and we are not getting a lot of answers from the same people who derided the National Govt.

Supply is the issue? If we build more houses they get snapped up by immigrants, plus property speculators gorging on virtually free money.....and still more people will keep coming.
If you admit that places like Papamoa, Pokeno, and East Auckland are growing like Topsy then you would be saying that the current plan to cover ever square inch of NZ land in housing is simply unsustainable. Already some of our best horticultural land at Pukekohe is being covered in the growing army of houses....it never stops!!

I don't know whether you are a real estate agent, or someone who is enjoying the vurtually free money coming your way - but there is no shame in admitting that virtually free money being shovelled out by The Reserve Bank and it's vassal retail banks is what is providing the fuel for this fire.
But you won't, because it doesn't suit your agenda. The last thing you want is for interest rates to go up because then you would be paying a fair rate on borrowed money, and savers could earn a fair return.

More people will be joining the 22,000 on the waiting list - mark my words. They will be doing it because they cannot in any way afford the absurdly high rents now being charged, so they are throwing themselves on the mercy of the state. They have no option. When people are paying 85% of their income on rent they will become absolutely desperate.

I think it is shameful that people like yourself won't admit the problems being caused by ultra-low interest, simply out of pure self-interest.

[stoploss]

Supply is the issue? If we build more houses they get snapped up by immigrants, plus property speculators gorging on virtually free money.....and still more people will keep coming.
If you admit that places like Papamoa, Pokeno, and East Auckland are growing like Topsy then you would be saying that the current plan to cover ever square inch of NZ land in housing is simply unsustainable. Already some of our best horticultural land at Pukekohe is being covered in the growing army of houses....it never stops!!

I don't know whether you are a real estate agent, or someone who is enjoying the vurtually free money coming your way - but there is no shame in admitting that virtually free money being shovelled out by The Reserve Bank and it's vassal retail banks is what is providing the fuel for this fire.
But you won't, because it doesn't suit your agenda. The last thing you want is for interest rates to go up because then you would be paying a fair rate on borrowed money, and savers could earn a fair return.

More people will be joining the 22,000 on the waiting list - mark my words. They will be doing it because they cannot in any way afford the absurdly high rents now being charged, so they are throwing themselves on the mercy of the state. They have no option. When people are paying 85% of their income on rent they will become absolutely desperate.

I think it is shameful that people like yourself won't admit the problems being caused by ultra-low interest, simply out of pure self-interest.

Immigrants - you are a bit behind on the policy ...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45199034
I never said I agreed with where interest rates are , just that supply was the issue and putting rates back to 5 % isn't going to change this.
I am glad you agree that supply is the issue , I also agree that the social housing waiting list is going North and have little faith in the current governments ability to do anything about it. The sharp increase in the waitlist imo is caused by the tougher landlord rules around tenants .... So more regulation just like foreign buyer ban that has had a negative effect ....
" The last thing I want is for interest rates to go up ?"- For every dollar of debt I actually have 16 investable dollars so you are wrong on that point as well.
You sound a bit sore about low rates , maybe stop fighting it go with the flow , adapt your investment strategies to the current market .....

[Logen Ninefingers]

Immigrants - you are a bit behind on the policy ...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45199034
I never said I agreed with where interest rates are , just that supply was the issue and putting rates back to 5 % isn't going to change this.
I am glad you agree that supply is the issue , I also agree that the social housing waiting list is going North and have little faith in the current governments ability to do anything about it. The sharp increase in the waitlist imo is caused by the tougher landlord rules around tenants .... So more regulation just like foreign buyer ban that has had a negative effect ....
" The last thing I want is for interest rates to go up ?"- For every dollar of debt I actually have 16 investable dollars so you are wrong on that point as well.
You sound a bit sore about low rates , maybe stop fighting it go with the flow , adapt your investment strategies to the current market .....

You do realise the difference between foreign buyers and immigrants, surely????
This is pretty basic stuff.
I talk about immigration numbers - a policy setting that can be changed btw - and you send me a link to an article about a ban on foreign buyers.
Come on, surely you are not that clueless. I will chalk it up to you just being disingenuous, or clutching at straws.

Secondly, for you to say "I'm glad you agree that supply is an issue" indicates you didn't bother to read my post. The issue is the supply of ultra-cheap money + government subsidies and policy settings that are fuelling the market. A lot of people are just flipping amongst themselves. Bob and Suzie buy a house for $850,000 and flip it for $1.2 million. Now Bob and Suzie are on the move to another purchase. And around and around we go. How much of the market is made up of this sort of carry-on?

You sound a bit sore about low rates , maybe stop fighting it go with the flow , adapt your investment strategies to the current market .....

What I'm 'sore' about is the destruction of a capitalist system that had depositors and investors at it's heart, and it's replacement with total Central Bank control as manifested by suppression of interest rates for over a decade & 'Quantative Easing' as a means of feeding government spending and feeding property speculators with dirt-cheap funds.
Apparently we are getting 'richer' when you look at property prices....but when you look at our nations debt levels and surging inequality, we are actually getting poorer.

[Balance]

Every eligible Singaporean is guaranteed a new flat built by the government there - based upon their income.

Sounds like socialism mate. The government builds all these boxy flats here in NZ while Balance enjoys dirt-cheap money at someone else's expense, sipping champagne in his mansion.

That's the fate of NZ's next generation: "Let them eat cake! Let them live in a box in a tower block!"

Let's end the farce of favouring borrowers and speculators over savers, and start gradually pushing up interest rates. Let's turn of the tap of virtually free money that is powering the housing market. Let it stand or fall on it's on feet!!

Fact check :

1. Singapore is infinitely more capitalist and free market than NZ (especially today) will ever be. The government there recognized a long long time ago that affordable housing is a basic requirement for its people & a human right and put in place a massive home building program to make that happen. No difference from NZ during the state housing building sprees of the 50s, 60s and 70s. Difference is that Singapore put in a long term policy & strategy - NZ decided to chop and change, and created a disaster.

2. Most of us on ST are investors and by inference, dirt-cheap money means we have no choice but to invest our hard earned savings wisely in other asset classes be them shares, properties or businesses. We sip champagne with our crayfish & caviar because we invest well, not because we borrow cheap money and spend like Cynical Cindy with an unlimited credit card.

3. Nothing wrong with tower blocks when they are built with superb facilities like recreations (parks, pools, gyms etc), shops, restaurants and superb infrastructure (walking distance to air-con public transport!).

Compare and contrast with the shoe-boxes built in NZ, especially in Auckland CBD.

Compare and contrast with the shoebox 3 level terrace units being built all over Auckland now to house state tenants and for Kiwibuild!


4. Stop the ever expanding welfare system in NZ which we all know is ballooning out of control - that's the simple answer to start ending ALL OF NZ's problems.

[dobby41]

A lot of people are just flipping amongst themselves. Bob and Suzie buy a house for $850,000 and flip it for $1.2 million. Now Bob and Suzie are on the move to another purchase. And around and around we go. How much of the market is made up of this sort of carry-on?

Do you have a number for 'a lot of people'?
So, how much of the market is made up of this sort of things?

(PS - flipping is a business and taxed but that doesn't help property prices.)

[dobby41]

Fact check :

1. Singapore is infinitely more capitalist and free market than NZ (especially today) will ever be. The government there recognized a long long time ago that affordable housing is a basic requirement for its people & a human right and put in place a massive home building program to make that happen. No difference from NZ during the state housing building sprees of the 50s, 60s and 70s. Difference is that Singapore put in a long term policy & strategy - NZ decided to chop and change, and created a disaster.

4. Stop the ever expanding welfare system in NZ which we all know is ballooning out of control - that's the simple answer to start ending ALL OF NZ's problems.

I'd agree that having a long-term strategy and being able to implement it via being the Govt for a long period helps.
But note that their idea of housing and ours isn't the same - I doubt many in NZ would be willing to live like the Singaporeans.

Of course, providing state-subsidised housing is a form of social welfare that you want to reduce.
But to the list of social welfare, I'd add the corporate welfare in the form of Working for Families that allows businesses to pay people less than a living wage because the taxpayer subsidises it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I'd agree that having a long-term strategy and being able to implement it via being the Govt for a long period helps.
But note that their idea of housing and ours isn't the same - I doubt many in NZ would be willing to live like the Singaporeans.

Of course, providing state-subsidised housing is a form of social welfare that you want to reduce.
But to the list of social welfare, I'd add the corporate welfare in the form of Working for Families that allows businesses to pay people less than a living wage because the taxpayer subsidises it.

I agree. The issue is the feeling of entitlement amongst middle NZ who say things like "I pay my taxes, I deserve a hand out" or think that exponential capital gains are fair and just because they "work hard".
Currently we are a nation of people that are rorting the system for all it is worth, and putting the cost on the ever increasing national debt.
There is no easy way out of this either as the whole house of cards is built on subsidies. Dirt-cheap interest rates are a subsidy paid to borrowers at the expense of savers, and then you have direct subsidies paid by the government in the form of deposit grants to first home buyers.

[Balance]

I'd agree that having a long-term strategy and being able to implement it via being the Govt for a long period helps.
But note that their idea of housing and ours isn't the same - I doubt many in NZ would be willing to live like the Singaporeans.

Of course, providing state-subsidised housing is a form of social welfare that you want to reduce.
But to the list of social welfare, I'd add the corporate welfare in the form of Working for Families that allows businesses to pay people less than a living wage because the taxpayer subsidises it.

NZers are being very very badly served by the high density housing being built now to supply the desperately short housing market. Come to Auckland's largest urban housing regeneration project, Tamaki Regeneration and observe the mess that NZ is making of the regeneration - small units squeezed tightly together, cheek to jowl, with bugger all facilities and carparks! Then, look at the messy 6 to 10 storey high rises being built now all over Auckland. And people are buying and moving into them.

Singapore's HDB ain't no state subsidized housing provider! It is a highly profitable entity in its own right!

Two of my good friends returned from Singapore after working there on expat terms for a decade - they know everything to know about housing and integrated developments as she is ex-Fletcher Building and he is ex Fonterra.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Fact check :

1. Singapore is infinitely more capitalist and free market than NZ (especially today) will ever be. The government there recognized a long long time ago that affordable housing is a basic requirement for its people & a human right and put in place a massive home building program to make that happen. No difference from NZ during the state housing building sprees of the 50s, 60s and 70s. Difference is that Singapore put in a long term policy & strategy - NZ decided to chop and change, and created a disaster.

2. Most of us on ST are investors and by inference, dirt-cheap money means we have no choice but to invest our hard earned savings wisely in other asset classes be them shares, properties or businesses. We sip champagne with our crayfish & caviar because we invest well, not because we borrow cheap money and spend like Cynical Cindy with an unlimited credit card.

3. Nothing wrong with tower blocks when they are built with superb facilities like recreations (parks, pools, gyms etc), shops, restaurants and superb infrastructure (walking distance to air-con public transport!).

Compare and contrast with the shoe-boxes built in NZ, especially in Auckland CBD.

Compare and contrast with the shoebox 3 level terrace units being built all over Auckland now to house state tenants and for Kiwibuild!


4. Stop the ever expanding welfare system in NZ which we all know is ballooning out of control - that's the simple answer to start ending ALL OF NZ's problems.

4. Stop the ever expanding welfare system in NZ which we all know is ballooning out of control - that's the simple answer to start ending ALL OF NZ's problems.

The problem at the heart of NZ's problems is that we have chucked free market capitalism in the bin, and have put all our eggs in one basket: the property ponzi scheme. All the moves we now make are made with two eyes on how it will effect the property market. Hence ongoing interest rate suppression and the crazy money printing experiment that we have embarked on.

If housing supply was really the issue, then why does the state drop it's nuts every time the market looks like it might drop?

We have a government desperate to maintain the illusion that the market is affordable and first home buyers can still get in....so they pay 'deposit grants', and these will only increase. This is a subsidy. This is welfare. This is a rort of the taxpayer.

The Reserve Bank has 'printed' tens of billions for a 'funding for lending' programme, and by far and away the place the retail banks are pumping this money is into housing. Again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with supply.

Interest rate suppression is criminal, IMO. It is clearly a measure designed to distort the market unfairly, and deprives depositors of their rightful returns. This is not capitalism!

[Logen Ninefingers]

NZers are being very very badly served by the high density housing being built now to supply the desperately short housing market. Come to Auckland's largest urban housing regeneration project, Tamaki Regeneration and observe the mess that NZ is making of the regeneration - small units squeezed tightly together, cheek to jowl, with bugger all facilities and carparks! Then, look at the messy 6 to 10 storey high rises being built now all over Auckland. And people are buying and moving into them.

Singapore's HDB ain't no state subsidized housing provider! It is a highly profitable entity in its own right!

Two of my good friends returned from Singapore after working there on expat terms for a decade - they know everything to know about housing and integrated developments as she is ex-Fletcher Building and he is ex Fonterra.

Do you think we might be slightly behind the 8 ball?

HDB take loans from the government for the construction of public housing and in turn provide mortgage loans to citizens to purchase the flats. The Home Ownership for the People program was launched in 1964, but mass adoption only took off in 1968 with amendments to Central Provident Fund that enable its use for the payments of the monthly mortgages to HDB. [7]