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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    Fulton Hogan is in the essential sectors and allowed to operate during the lockdown.

    Some in the contracting business have been laughing their heads off with the structure of the wage subsidy - money for jam.

    Their work were simply deferred and they more than made up by working extra hours after the lockdown - call it deferred rather than lost revenues. But they got the subsidies.

    Then there were those who deferred invoicing for work already done so they could claim their revenues were down 30%.

    The stories go on and on.
    Money for jam if you are unethical, and that is the issue - unethical behaviour. Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand talks about ethics rather than morals, but they are clear that maintaining ethical standards is important. They say “There are already reports emerging that some in the business community have engaged in unethical behaviour in order to access government grants and wage subsidies – for example, by altering the time at which sales or invoicing would normally occur in order to qualify.”

    https://www.charteredaccountantsanz....ring-this-time
    Some members have also told us about the pressure to provide advice or engage in actions contrary to the high ethical standards we each committed to when we became Chartered Accountants.
    There may be those who seek to enlist advisers as co-conspirators to commit fraud.

    Community expectations have never been higher. At a time when our nations desperately need our help to ensure financial support goes to those who genuinely qualify within the law, it is important that we remain hypervigilant and hold fast to our shared values and Code of Ethics.

  2. #122
    Hunting for more dog food Beagle's Avatar
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    My sense moka is I could spend forever trying to articulate my point of view and my time would be wasted. You've made up your mind and although I would concede I could have articulated my point of view considerably more eloquently than I have on this thread, the core message is clear enough (despite perhaps quite some abrasiveness and clumsiness on my part). I am not going to repeat it, my viewpoint is clear enough for anyone to see who is prepared to look past whatever abrasiveness may have got up their nose.

    Everyone is entitled to their point of view, I have mine and others have theirs. Ultimately the board of each company will decide and sometimes its best to agree to disagree, most especially so with friends of mine who hold a different view than I do about this matter. Sadly this thread did go pretty toxic and I have to acknowledge my own part in that which I regret, (but its fair to say I was quite surprised by some people jumping so quickly to judge me...definitely some disappointments there), but its time for me to move on and let this go. From a mental health point of view I can feel the toxicity in this thread which is a sign for me to let it go and move on.

    For the record, over the weekend I took the opportunity to clearly articulate my view to the board of HLG and invited them to contact me further to discuss if they wish. This morning I received confirmation they have received my email. One thing I know I can rely on is that Tim Glasson has an extremely experienced owners eye on this business and whatever decision he and the board make will be what they think is in the best interests of the company.

    My sense is some people will want to argue and debate this matter a LOT more and its become quite circular...people trying to relitigate their viewpoint coming from slightly different angles. I simply can't be bothered going round and round in circles anymore which should in no way whatsoever be interpreted as a backdown on my viewpoint.
    Last edited by Beagle; 16-11-2020 at 05:22 PM.
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    Money for jam if you are unethical, and that is the issue - unethical behaviour. Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand talks about ethics rather than morals, but they are clear that maintaining ethical standards is important. They say “There are already reports emerging that some in the business community have engaged in unethical behaviour in order to access government grants and wage subsidies – for example, by altering the time at which sales or invoicing would normally occur in order to qualify.”

    https://www.charteredaccountantsanz....ring-this-time
    Some members have also told us about the pressure to provide advice or engage in actions contrary to the high ethical standards we each committed to when we became Chartered Accountants.
    There may be those who seek to enlist advisers as co-conspirators to commit fraud.

    Community expectations have never been higher. At a time when our nations desperately need our help to ensure financial support goes to those who genuinely qualify within the law, it is important that we remain hypervigilant and hold fast to our shared values and Code of Ethics.
    Unethical?

    You mean like using taxpayers' funds to buy votes?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    My sense moka is I could spend forever trying to articulate my point of view and my time would be wasted. You've made up your mind and although I would concede I could have articulated my point of view considerably more eloquently than I have on this thread, the core message is clear enough (despite perhaps quite some abrasiveness and clumsiness on my part). I am not going to repeat it, my viewpoint is clear enough for anyone to see who is prepared to look past whatever abrasiveness may have got up their nose.

    Everyone is entitled to their point of view, I have mine and others have theirs. Ultimately the board of each company will decide and sometimes its best to agree to disagree, most especially so with friends of mine who hold a different view than I do about this matter. Sadly this thread did go pretty toxic and I have to acknowledge my own part in that which I regret, (but its fair to say I was quite surprised by some people jumping so quickly to judge me...definitely some disappointments there), but its time for me to move on and let this go. From a mental health point of view I can feel the toxicity in this thread which is a sign for me to let it go and move on.

    For the record, over the weekend I took the opportunity to clearly articulate my view to the board of HLG and invited them to contact me further to discuss if they wish. This morning I received confirmation they have received my email. One thing I know I can rely on is that Tim Glasson has an extremely experienced owners eye on this business and whatever decision he and the board make will be what they think is in the best interests of the company.

    My sense is some people will want to argue and debate this matter a LOT more. I simply can't be bothered anymore which should be in no way whatsoever be interpreted as a backdown on my viewpoint on this whole matter.
    I am guessing that comment was aimed at me. While I have no interest in engaging in any further dialogue with you regarding this I would like to clarify my position.

    I was perfectly entitled to enter into this discussion at any time if I so wished.

    I was also perfectly entitled to have an opinion on what you were saying about other posters. I am not one to stand by and say nothing if I think someone is being treated unfairly or being attacked for having a different opinion to you. I felt your accusations against Moka in particular were unpleasant, unfair and uncalled for.

    If you genuinely believe Bull or Moka are attempting to manipulate the share price for their own personal gain you should report them to the appropriate authority. I am not a lawyer but I would think making blind accusations on here about someones character could be construed as defamatory.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by RupertBear View Post
    I am guessing that comment was aimed at me. While I have no interest in engaging in any further dialogue with you regarding this I would like to clarify my position.

    I was perfectly entitled to enter into this discussion at any time if I so wished.

    I was also perfectly entitled to have an opinion on what you were saying about other posters. I am not one to stand by and say nothing if I think someone is being treated unfairly or being attacked for having a different opinion to you. I felt your accusations against Moka in particular were unpleasant, unfair and uncalled for.

    If you genuinely believe Bull or Moka are attempting to manipulate the share price for their own personal gain you should report them to the appropriate authority. I am not a lawyer but I would think making blind accusations on here about someones character could be construed as defamatory.
    Chill, RupertBear - nobody but nobody knows who Bull or Moka are out there. Or for that matter, who the heck you are.

    You are entitled to write and say anything you want but a note of caution, birds of a feather stick together.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    Chill, RupertBear - nobody but nobody knows who Bull or Moka are out there. Or for that matter, who the heck you are.

    You are entitled to write and say anything you want but a note of caution, birds of a feather stick together.
    I am totally chilled Balance, life is good, no worries at all

    I am perfectly happy to stand up for people I perceive have been wronged, I dont care who they are. Geepers I might even stand up for you one day

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    Chill, RupertBear - nobody but nobody knows who Bull or Moka are out there. Or for that matter, who the heck you are.

    You are entitled to write and say anything you want but a note of caution, birds of a feather stick together.
    Well i wouldnt compare bull with moka other than the fact that they both agree re the wage subsidy, even though I don't agree with moka on a lot of things he is a well researched individual who makes a valuable contribution to the forum , bull on the other hand is only here to try and influence sp movements for his own gain.
    Last edited by couta1; 16-11-2020 at 06:42 PM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by couta1 View Post
    Well i wouldnt compare bull with moka other than the fact that they both agree re the wage subsidy, even though I don't agree with moka on a lot of things he is a well researched individual who makes a valuable contribution to the forum , bull on the other hand is only here to try and influence sp movements for his own gain.
    Well said Couta, I also believe Moka makes a valuable contribution to the forum

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by RupertBear View Post
    Well said Couta, I also believe Moka makes a valuable contribution to the forum
    I agree, moka is very level headed, calm and reasoned analysis supported by research, and unflappable. Whether I agree or not. Quite refreshing really, I cannot understand how it is inflammatory. I suppose owing a company tends to influence how we react to perceived criticism, but if 90% of communication is visual then a discussion group is a poor remaining 10% source of information to draw conclusions from.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Businesses are expected to act lawfully - within the law. When you step into uncodified "morals" to whose moral code are you referring, what are the relevant details and where are the boundaries drawn?

    Non-shareholders' impartiality may also be questioned.
    I was a bit slow to realise that accountants and other professionals do have a code of ethics, and I called it morals rather than ethics. I did note you called it a moral code implying it was a written code. Interesting that there are several accountants, lawyers and other professional who post on sharetrader and no-one else mentioned the code of ethics when we were discussing morals.

    Chartered Accountants Australia and New Zealand provide resources specifically for Covid on their website.
    CA Advisory Group - CAAG provides counselling and support for CAs facing ethical dilemmas or weighing career decisions.
    COVID-19 Resources hub - This dedicated hub is regularly updated to ensure members are equipped to navigate the serious long-term economic and business impacts from this pandemic.
    https://www.charteredaccountantsanz....ring-this-time

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    We'll see. I reckon a test of the all time high of $6.48 is imminent and almost certain to be resoundingly broken. A lot of people have forgotten about the ~ $50m cash (83 cents cash per share) on their balance sheet and its clear with that, combined with higher sales and dramatically lower interest rates (warranting another 1.5 PE on their own compared to this time last year), the shares are worth considerably more today that when they were $6.48 about a year ago. I have learned never to sell shares in a clearly defined uptrend.

    Closing price today at $6.43 is really only the equivalent of $6.19 ex divvy and compared to the metrics of WHS and BGR and taking into account the cash on HLG's balance sheet I still think HLG is on an absolute basis on its own merits compelling value at this level and even more so when compared to it peers.
    $50m cash and received NZ$5.18m wage subsidy so HLG did have significant cash reserves which it could have used.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/122889993/hallenstein-glasson-profit-falls-4-to-27m-no-plans-to-repay-wage-subsidies

    Hallenstein Glasson, which claimed $8.4 million in government support in New Zealand and Australia due to Covid-19, posted a net profit after tax of $27.8 million, down 4.3 per cent but in line with the top of its forecast range released last month.
    In New Zealand, Glassons received $2.69m in wage subsidies for 451 staff and Hallenstein Brothers received $2.48m for 415 staff, totalling $5.18 million. In Australia, the company also accessed job seeker payments, totalling $4.98 million.


  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by couta1 View Post
    Well i wouldnt compare bull with moka other than the fact that they both agree re the wage subsidy, even though I don't agree with moka on a lot of things he is a well researched individual who makes a valuable contribution to the forum , bull on the other hand is only here to try and influence sp movements for his own gain.
    Ha .I just started reading this thread.
    Couts, Just for the record, I sometimes find Bulls post useful

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    I was a bit slow to realise that accountants and other professionals do have a code of ethics, and I called it morals rather than ethics. I did note you called it a moral code implying it was a written code. Interesting that there are several accountants, lawyers and other professional who post on sharetrader and no-one else mentioned the code of ethics when we were discussing morals....
    The "moral code" individuals have is unwritten. A code can be unwritten. It seemed to me that you had been referring to unwritten uncodified morals.

    As you are now referring to a professional body's code of ethics, then you are correct, it will be a formalised document encompassing morals deemed relevant for the profession. Certainly if a business pressurised its accountants to breach their ethics to "cook the books" in order to justify their application for the wages subsidy, then they should not keep the subsidy. Is that what you think has happened with some companies?

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    $50m cash and received NZ$5.18m wage subsidy so HLG did have significant cash reserves which it could have used.
    ...
    Did the mere fact that HLG had cash reserves when they applied for the subsidy mean that they were legally obliged to use them and not to apply for the subsidy?
    Last edited by Bjauck; 17-11-2020 at 06:46 AM.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiora View Post
    Ha .I just started reading this thread.
    Couts, Just for the record, I sometimes find Bulls post useful
    Yes actually you are right, when he starts down ramping a stock, it's a fantastic buy signal.

  16. #136
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    Thank you for the link moka. I either wasn't aware or had forgotten that HLG had already clearly articulated their position on the wage subsidy. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/ind...wage-subsidies
    I am very comfortable with their approach and it presents no moral or ethical dilemmas for me whatsoever.

    I am going to conclude any further comment on this matter with noting that they went into this serious pandemic with modest liquidity which you can read about in the interim report I have provided a link to below. Management of this company have an excellent track record of adapting their business to cope with adversity and you can read about the steps they took to cope with Covid 19 in their annual report for which I have also provided a link below.
    For those of you who are time poor I would direct you to pages 33-34 and some may wish to also read pages 10-13 of the annual report but to gain a good understanding of this excellent company I recommend reading both reports in full.

    Interim Report http://nzx-prod-s7fsd7f98s.s3-websit...597/321891.pdf
    Annual Report http://nzx-prod-s7fsd7f98s.s3-websit...283/333885.pdf

    LOL Couta1. Thanks for the much needed humor above. A very appropriate comment to end this toxic thread on.

    Let me conclude by saying I am a very happy holder of HLG shares and am very comfortable with the way the business is being run. This is my FINAL concluding remark in this thread and I am not under any circumstances going to allow myself be drawn into further circular and repetitive discussion on this thread.
    Last edited by Beagle; 17-11-2020 at 06:52 AM.
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  17. #137
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    I note in todays announcment from Napier Ports

    “The recovery was so strong that the Board moved to repay the Government wage subsidy for which we qualified and accepted in the early stages of the health crisis."
    “What the wise man does in the beginning, the fool does in the end”

  18. #138
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    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123...half-profit-13

    The company, which received $14.2m of government wage subsidies, is paying $44m of dividends to its shareholders from its first-half profits.

    It has spent $50m on its pandemic response since January, mostly on extra staff costs and personal protective equipment. It has had no cases of Covid-19 among its 12,000 residents or 6,100 staff.


    Ryman’s board believed that because the company had spent about three times the wage subsidy on Covid-19 measures, it “balanced out” and was appropriate to pay a dividend, he said.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balance View Post
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/123...half-profit-13

    The company, which received $14.2m of government wage subsidies, is paying $44m of dividends to its shareholders from its first-half profits.

    It has spent $50m on its pandemic response since January, mostly on extra staff costs and personal protective equipment. It has had no cases of Covid-19 among its 12,000 residents or 6,100 staff.


    Ryman’s board believed that because the company had spent about three times the wage subsidy on Covid-19 measures, it “balanced out” and was appropriate to pay a dividend, he said.
    Any COVID measures witch-hunters should hunt down more deserving targets. I agree with the Ryman Board.

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