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Thread: PIEs on NZSX

  1. #1
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    Default PIEs on NZSX

    Where can I find a list of PIEs among NZX listings? Obviously the listed property trusts are (not that any of their web sites say so) - but is there a list of others somewhere?

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    All Smartshares Index funds and KFL , MLN , BRM are also listed PIEs

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    Just the property companies and the Fisher three that I know of. Some of SPG is a dividend rather than a PIE distribution. Something to do with stapled securities which I don't fully understand.

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    I invest in a few Smartshare ETFs and they are all PIEs

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    I invest in a few Smartshare ETFs and they are all PIEs
    Yet there is no mention of this on their website - or on any other websites as far as I can see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    Yet there is no mention of this on their website - or on any other websites as far as I can see.
    It is silly how difficult it is to find but in the "product disclosure statement" on their website, this is what it says:
    "How will your investment be taxed?
    Each fund is a listed portfolio investment entity (PIE).
    As a listed PIE, each fund will pay tax on taxable income
    at the rate of 28%. See section 6 for more information."
    Last edited by iceman; 05-05-2021 at 12:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    It is silly how difficult it is to find but in the "product disclosure statement" on their website, this is what it says:
    "How will your investment be taxed?
    Each fund is a listed portfolio investment entity (PIE).
    As a listed PIE, each fund will pay tax on taxable income
    at the rate of 28%. See section 6 for more information."
    Is that flat rate 28%? I was under the assumption PIEs pay tax at RWT of UP TO 28% max. ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    Is that flat rate 28%? I was under the assumption PIEs pay tax at RWT of UP TO 28% max. ?
    No. All listed PIE's pay at 28%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    It is silly how difficult it is to find but in the "product disclosure statement" on their website, this is what it says:
    "How will your investment be taxed?
    Each fund is a listed portfolio investment entity (PIE).
    As a listed PIE, each fund will pay tax on taxable income
    at the rate of 28%. See section 6 for more information."
    It's more than silly. It doesn't help the company or the shareholders to make it so difficult to find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    It's more than silly. It doesn't help the company or the shareholders to make it so difficult to find.
    Lol well as I mentioned before, taxation is never 'openly' discussed by NZ financial advisors, then why should the various managed funds be transparent about the whole tax situation?

    I'm shocked to see how a PIE fund pays 28% considering the NZ public companies (who these managed funds hold) also pay a corporate tax rate of 28%. Doesn't seem a lot is left over for the individual investor after taxes and fund management fees take their cut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    Lol well as I mentioned before, taxation is never 'openly' discussed by NZ financial advisors, then why should the various managed funds be transparent about the whole tax situation?

    I'm shocked to see how a PIE fund pays 28% considering the NZ public companies (who these managed funds hold) also pay a corporate tax rate of 28%. Doesn't seem a lot is left over for the individual investor after taxes and fund management fees take their cut.
    That would be double taxation which does not happen. Tax paid is taken into account. It is why there are imputation credits now on all dividends, to some extent, to stop double taxation. Beyond me though the exact process followed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    Lol well as I mentioned before, taxation is never 'openly' discussed by NZ financial advisors, then why should the various managed funds be transparent about the whole tax situation?

    I'm shocked to see how a PIE fund pays 28% considering the NZ public companies (who these managed funds hold) also pay a corporate tax rate of 28%. Doesn't seem a lot is left over for the individual investor after taxes and fund management fees take their cut.
    They use the imputation credits passed to them from listed company when these listed PIEs gets dividends from companies they hold ...its not double taxation as u are assuming . Also what they make on from switching or buy and sell stocks is passed to investors as excluded income with no tax deducted or payable .

    Actually listed PIEs are the most efficient way of investing ...even better then direct investment especially if u on highest rate of 39% where now u have to pay yourself 6% additional tax on companies dividend with 28% imputations credits + 5% Dividend Withholding Tax already paid ( 33% deductions ) .

    Thats another reason all these Fisher funds listed PIEs managed funds doing so well ...BRM is selling at 31% over NAV today ...amazing

    These listed PIEs have a distinct tax advantage ...they deduct and attach imputation credit of 28% with every dividend which u may or may not elect to declare in IR3 . As their 28% tax from $ 1 flat rate is final tax also u have the liberty to not disclose it legally as per advise written on their dividend statements . But if it suits an investor then he can elect to include PIE's dividend in his IR3 and use the benefit of 28% imputation credits attached

    Its the best way to do retirement planning as just buy and forget them ...direct credit to bank every 3 months ...no need do anything further

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    Quote Originally Posted by alokdhir View Post
    They use the imputation credits passed to them from listed company when these listed PIEs gets dividends from companies they hold ...its not double taxation as u are assuming . Also what they make on from switching or buy and sell stocks is passed to investors as excluded income with no tax deducted or payable .

    Actually listed PIEs are the most efficient way of investing ...even better then direct investment especially if u on highest rate of 39% where now u have to pay yourself 6% additional tax on companies dividend with 28% imputations credits + 5% Dividend Withholding Tax already paid ( 33% deductions ) .

    Thats another reason all these Fisher funds listed PIEs managed funds doing so well ...BRM is selling at 31% over NAV today ...amazing

    These listed PIEs have a distinct tax advantage ...they deduct and attach imputation credit of 28% with every dividend which u may or may not elect to declare in IR3 . As their 28% tax from $ 1 flat rate is final tax also u have the liberty to not disclose it legally as per advise written on their dividend statements . But if it suits an investor then he can elect to include PIE's dividend in his IR3 and use the benefit of 28% imputation credits attached

    Its the best way to do retirement planning as just buy and forget them ...direct credit to bank every 3 months ...no need do anything further
    Exactly why it would be good to have access to a list of all the possibilities, or at least have their websites clearly identified

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    Quote Originally Posted by 777 View Post
    ....Something to do with stapled securities which I don't fully understand.
    Stapled securities are shares in two (or more) companies that are bought, held, and sold together.
    In the old days of share certificates you got two (or more) certificates physically stapled together and you were not allowed to remove the staple.

    Usually the individual companies are very closely related but there are tax advantages in them being separate entities.

    With SPG you get one share in Stride Property and one share in Stride Investment Management, and their dividends are listed separately.

    Hope that helps
    om mani peme hum

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    Thanks Snow Leopard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Leopard View Post
    Stapled securities are shares in two (or more) companies that are bought, held, and sold together.
    In the old days of share certificates you got two (or more) certificates physically stapled together and you were not allowed to remove the staple.

    Usually the individual companies are very closely related but there are tax advantages in them being separate entities.

    With SPG you get one share in Stride Property and one share in Stride Investment Management, and their dividends are listed separately.

    Hope that helps
    That's it. Stride Property group, which is a PIE and SIML which is non pie. Which brings me back to my moan. Nowhere on Strides website does it mention the PIE ansd non-pie aspect of stride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    That's it. Stride Property group, which is a PIE and SIML which is non pie. Which brings me back to my moan. Nowhere on Strides website does it mention the PIE ansd non-pie aspect of stride.
    That is nothing to moan about. Moan about this instead:

    Even though SPG is a PIE not all of the dividend amount is PIE related:
    look at their last div statement

    and this situation is to a variable extent true for many other PIE entities as well.

    So try feeding that into your tax return without making a mistake.
    om mani peme hum

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    Quote Originally Posted by 777 View Post
    That would be double taxation which does not happen. Tax paid is taken into account. It is why there are imputation credits now on all dividends, to some extent, to stop double taxation. Beyond me though the exact process followed.
    I didn't mention dividends as both entities should be mutually exclusive. The corporation pays their 28% tax. If they choose to pay the profits in dividends, then I understand that the PIE funds (like any individual holding the same stock) will get some imputation dividend tax credit. Keep in mind, don't assume all dividends paid are 100% imputed tax credited.

    In the issue if the company holds the profits and the share prices increases, what impact does this have on the PIE funds? If this comes as being tax free capital gains on the NZX listed company; then why the fuss of PIEs talking about 28% tax? So what exactly is 28% being applied to in these PIE funds? (on the dividend INCOME or on the CAPITAL gain???)

    I agree above that it seems PIEs do have a better advantage having a max 28% tax for those on the higher income brackets. Quite sad those that this really only benefits the rich and high income earners ; strange incentive and something I doubt I would ever see applied in N. American managed funds. There really should not be any tax benefit for ALL investors in ALL income classes ; hence why the taxation of capital gains and/or dividends are tax free upon the withdrawal of funds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Leopard View Post
    That is nothing to moan about. Moan about this instead:

    Even though SPG is a PIE not all of the dividend amount is PIE related:
    look at their last div statement

    and this situation is to a variable extent true for many other PIE entities as well.

    So try feeding that into your tax return without making a mistake.
    That is SIML you have posted. Not SPG.

    SPG.JPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    That is SIML you have posted. Not SPG.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Leopard View Post
    ....So try feeding that into your tax return without making a mistake.
    Hopefully I have covered my bases on that

    And hopefully this is the statement I meant
    om mani peme hum

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