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  1. #21
    Reincarnated Panthera Snow Leopard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    From what I recall, switching on years between FIF & CV does not apply to managed funds like PIE but rather, is only allowed for private individuals. As long as the funds that hold the equities can determine a fair market value (ie. any share on the stock exchange), then the FDR must be used....


    ....Again, it would be great if someone in industry can directly clarify what i've said. It's too easy to make assumptions instead of finding the facts. If the references i've made are out of date, then I stand corrected.
    It is clear that most of what you think you understand and continually criticize about the NZ tax regime is incorrect.
    We are not going to get anywhere educating you until you clear your mind and then start again from the ground up.

    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    Yes a NZ company that does NOT trade on the NZX. If it were a dual listed company, then it would give the option for NZ investors to buy Xero on the NZX and benefit from tax free capital gains? Correct me if i'm mistaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Leopard View Post
    The IRD website explains that XRO does not come under FIF at all because it is a NZ company.

    You treat it the same as, for example, Mainfreight or Turners.
    Which part did you not understand?
    om mani peme hum

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 777 View Post
    SBQ I look at it as an individual investing off shore. You appear to be creating a fund or some such thing, way out my area.

    As far as my treatment of my investment in Platinum Funds units the following cut and paste from the IRD site explains it.

    This calculator is for New Zealand tax residents who have investments in foreign companies with a purchase price of more than NZ$50,000 or who choose to use the FDR method under the FIF rules

    Your direct income share in the FIF must be less than 10% at all times in the income year if the investment is not in a grey list country, and at any time if it is in a grey list country.

    You can calculate your taxable income in four different ways:
    Use the combined FDR and CV calculator to compare and choose the lesser liability
    Use only the FDR method to calculate your taxable income
    Use only the CV method for your guarantee return investments
    Use the cost method if you donít know the market value of your investment, but have an independent valuation
    I'm not speaking from the individual that invests DIRECTLY as you are correct in the options of choice in FIF for individuals. I'm referring to all those managed funds, Kiwi Saver Funds, PIEs, you name it, where individuals send their contributions into these funds and the managers take your contributions, added them with the many other contributions from other investors, and then go buy and sell shares in their fund / portfolio. These holdings if purchasing say US equities will fall under FIF by the fund manager's liability. Furthermore, i've read (can't find the link) but such $50K FIF exemption no longer applies to each individual client that invests into such fund (well how can that be tracked and computed?). Again correct me if i'm wrong but all the info we read on IRD under FIF applies to the individual that has direct ownership of the assets. Am I missing something here?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Leopard View Post
    It is clear that most of what you think you understand and continually criticize about the NZ tax regime is incorrect.
    We are not going to get anywhere educating you until you clear your mind and then start again from the ground up.





    Which part did you not understand?
    If you find what i've said, and all the references I made online is inaccurate, then by all means, show it. At least bring it to the table instead of spewing your arrogance.

    There are many articles online about the problems of NZ's FIF and IRD's treatment of foreign pensions for those looking to reside in NZ. Why? the complexities? If my findings are incorrect, then please elaborate on how the following articles are incorrect about NZ's grossly messed up taxing scheme:

    https://www.interest.co.nz/personal-...unds-and-finds

    "The principal issues which were unclear were whether foreign superannuation schemes were subject to the Foreign Investment Fund (FIF) regime, and what was the tax treatment on transfer?
    “Probably”, and “Not sure” in case you’ve forgotten. "

    and it seems like the media has got a wind of the reporter's claim:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/78361237/migrants-say-they-are-being-handed-tax-bills-they-cannot-pay


    And over in the UK - it seems they've got a bit of wind on the same issue:

    https://uk-pension-transfer.co.nz/ta...superannuation

    As for XRO vs Mainfreight or Turners. The latter 2 trade on the NZX and therefore the NZ resident investor gets the benefit of tax free capital gain + dividend imputation credits (if any) on divs (likewise for the Kiwi Saver funds that buy those 2 companies on the NZX). For Xero, the excuse is they pay no dividends, and therefore is NOT exempted from FIF. Meaning the NZ resident owning XRO on the ASX has to pay FIF tax (and again, i'm speaking from a cost basis of well over $50K as it seems that threshold keeps coming up in discussions). All 3 of these companies are based in NZ. Is it a requirement that companies must pay dividends before NZ shareholders can get the benefit of being FIF exempted? That's what I don't understand. Again, correct me if i'm wrong.
    Last edited by SBQ; 09-06-2021 at 11:23 PM. Reason: missing link

  4. #24
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    SPG
    Yes you are right in your last sentence about it being about individuals.

    If you invest in any of those Funds then there is no more tax to concern you as the funds handle it all and being PIE income does not need any attention.Those funds send you an annual tax statement which you simply file in your trash. That info appears in your myIR with the IRD simply for them to ensure you are using the correct PIR. With regard to the $50,000 it would not apply to these investments because it would not be necessary however if you want to invest direct in an offshore based fund or foreign shares as well then I am sure you must be able to use it. If not then every Kiwisaver member could not which would rule out a lot of people using it and then the exemption would have little purpose.

    I have investments in PIE Funds (Mike Taylor) and Kiwisaver, but if I was to invest direct offshore again then I wouldn't hesitate to apply the $50,000 if I needed it.

    I do think it would be worth your while to find a specialist on FIF and take your personal situation to them. It would cost you an hour of their time but would be beneficial.
    Last edited by 777; 09-06-2021 at 11:28 PM.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by 777 View Post
    SPG
    Yes you are right in your last sentence about it being about individuals.

    If you invest in any of those Funds then there is no more tax to concern you as the funds handle it all and being PIE income does not need any attention.Those funds send you an annual tax statement which you simply file in your trash. That info appears in your myIR with the IRD simply for them to ensure you are using the correct PIR. With regard to the $50,000 it would not apply to these investments because it would not be necessary however if you want to invest direct in an offshore based fund or foreign shares as well then I am sure you must be able to use it. If not then every Kiwisaver member could not which would rule out a lot of people using it and then the exemption would have little purpose.

    I have investments in PIE Funds (Mike Taylor) and Kiwisaver, but if I was to invest direct offshore again then I wouldn't hesitate to apply the $50,000 if I needed it.

    I do think it would be worth your while to find a specialist on FIF and take your personal situation to them. It would cost you an hour of their time but would be beneficial.
    Thanks for clarifying. I agree without a doubt, the individual gets a better tax treatment under FIF than if it was a ie PIE Fund which has to use FDR year after year (no switching to CV on years of paper loss). I remember some years ago the managed fund industry crying out because of online discount brokers like Sharesies and Hatch taking away their clients. I think for the vast majority, that $50K cost basis exemption makes things attractive.

    It's great to be informed through the forum but as you say, best to seek financial advise. Well I did but none of the financial advisors could give me tax advice and said I should see a tax accountant instead. When time comes nearer, then I will but I will only go to the big larger accounting firms like KPMG, Delloite etc. as they have a much larger tax library and will put it to them straight in comparison to say if one moves overseas etc. Cheers!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post

    As for XRO vs Mainfreight or Turners. The latter 2 trade on the NZX and therefore the NZ resident investor gets the benefit of tax free capital gain + dividend imputation credits (if any) on divs (likewise for the Kiwi Saver funds that buy those 2 companies on the NZX). For Xero, the excuse is they pay no dividends, and therefore is NOT exempted from FIF. Meaning the NZ resident owning XRO on the ASX has to pay FIF tax (and again, i'm speaking from a cost basis of well over $50K as it seems that threshold keeps coming up in discussions). All 3 of these companies are based in NZ. Is it a requirement that companies must pay dividends before NZ shareholders can get the benefit of being FIF exempted? That's what I don't understand. Again, correct me if i'm wrong.
    I think SL is saying that its not considered foreign and therefore doesn't need an exemption. While it IS listed on the ASX it is a NZ company so the answer on this forum is simple but you seem to be overcomplicating it.

    https://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/...panies/1830488
    For clarity, nothing I say is advice....

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by peat View Post
    I think SL is saying that its not considered foreign and therefore doesn't need an exemption. While it IS listed on the ASX it is a NZ company so the answer on this forum is simple but you seem to be overcomplicating it.

    https://app.companiesoffice.govt.nz/...panies/1830488
    I get that - and no one is disagreeing that Xero is not a NZ company, this is very obvious.

    What is not obvious is, why should a NZ company be subjected to FIF - just because they trade on an overseas stock exchange? It's not a complicated question and it may be simply that NZ has very skewed tax laws just like the difference between owning multiple houses vs owning foreign shares under FIF. We can turn the tables around and question why foreign companies listed on NZX get the benefit of being FIF exempt for NZ shareholders?

    I'm not trying to pick battles here and i'm not being ignorant. I've spoken to local financial advisors around FIF and not surprisingly, they don't give me a clear distinct answer because taxation is not part of the CFP role in NZ (but they are mandatory knowledge for CFP in Canada and in the US). All the questions I see answered in Canadian 'money guide online advice blah blah blogs' start from the angle of taxation when it comes to investments in retirement planning (and it covers all different asset classes). I mean something so critical to the overall end disposable income to the investor and yet taxation is not clearly spelled out in NZ. It is complicated (well complicated enough that IRD themselves don't appear to know what they're doing for those bringing their pension over from the UK to NZ: ref my online link above).

    Perhaps the biggest con I see is one should not have to pay $300/hour for a tax accountant, just to find out why some NZ companies (like XRO) attract FIF while some others don't.

  8. #28
    Reincarnated Panthera Snow Leopard's Avatar
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    Statement of Fact:

    XRO, a NZ company listed on the ASX, is not subject to the FIF rules.
    om mani peme hum

  9. #29
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    What am I missing here from IRD's FIF Exemption Checker:

    https://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax/i...ent-fund-rules

    The wording for BHP:

    The ASX Ticker Code you have entered relates to BHP Group Ltd.
    Based on the information you have provided, the income from the shares qualifies for the Australian share exemption provided the shares were held at 1 April 2020 or were acquired on the market during the year.
    This means income from the shares is taxed under the general income tax rules, the same as investments in New Zealand. They are not attributing interests for tax purposes and therefore fall outside the FIF rules.




    The wording for XRO:

    Result: XRO

    The ASX Ticker Code you have entered relates to Xero Ltd.
    Based on the information you have provided, your income for 1 April 2020 to 31 March 2021 does not qualify for the Australian share exemption.

    This is because Xero Ltd is a New Zealand company and not a FIF. Income from the shares is taxed under the general income tax rules.


    Clarify?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    The wording for XRO:

    Result: XRO


    The ASX Ticker Code you have entered relates to Xero Ltd.
    Based on the information you have provided, your income for 1 April 2020 to 31 March 2021 does not qualify for the Australian share exemption.

    This is because Xero Ltd is a New Zealand company and not a FIF. Income from the shares is taxed under the general income tax rules.



    Clarify?
    I believe , but dont know for absolute sure that it is exactly what has been said

    it doesnt qualify for an exemption - because it doesnt need to. because it is not foreign.

    thats how I read it.

    who is missing the point here ? I dont think its me but could be ?
    For clarity, nothing I say is advice....

  11. #31
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    Also for IVV as mentioned above. . .

    Result: SPY
    The ASX Ticker Code you have entered relates to SPDR S&P 500 ETF Trust.

    Based on the information you have provided, your income for 1 April 2020 to 31 March 2021 does not qualify for the Australian share exemption.

    Other exemptions apply to certain ASX listed investments under certain circumstances. Please consult your accountant, tax advisor, broker, or the relevant investment fund.

    If the investment is a FIF, the income will generally be taxed under the:

    fair dividend rate (FDR) method
    comparative value (CV) method
    cost method (CM)
    deemed rate of return (DRR)
    You can find information about these methods on our website under Foreign investment funds

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