Nat/act/nzf 2023

[Panda-NZ-]

When are we going to see cost of living improvements.

When is a lower real minimum wage, 90 day trials and business expertise & management skills in govt now going to provide a jobs boom.

[Panda-NZ-]

The rest of the stuff is simply a reverse culture war

[Bjauck]

QUOTE xafalcon They would sell to another party that values them more highly than the current owners - just like any other sale and purchase arrangement, from toilet paper to jumbo jets The house does not disappear. So home ownership rates may stop declining.

People generally don't "invest" into their own home. They buy for reasons of stability, ability to customise, develop a family environment, show off to their friends etc Everybody invests their capital into their house. Some cannot afford home ownership though as they are outbid by those buying to rent out. It is still one of the most effective and tax efficient ways of building a nest egg, if you can afford it.

Many people have purchased rentals because they or their parents got burned by other options - shares, bullion, small businesses, finance company deposits etc True, the tax rules are not the only reason so much of NZ household wealth is invested in real estate.

A house is always there, it's tangible, and can be lived in if circumstances change. Hence "safe as houses” Notwithstanding deficient building codes, and the effects of climate change on weather and rising sea levels?

Rentals do not provide the windfall profits that you see printed in the papers, online etc. They are steady returns, beat inflation, but like other low-risk options they provide only modest returns. Different areas of NZ have experienced different returns. Owners can have the help of leverage to be able to purchase. Inflationary government policies assist the capital gains aspect. Hence the concern over the current tax system not treating different asset classes and income sources fairly, and resulting in warped and unproductive allocation of capital in NZ.

And without private landlords, any government would be screwed. And it only takes a small minority to sell their rental, and the market get tipped into shortage again, and rents spiral upwards again. A delicate balance needs to be found. Shortage of housing stock is an issue. However if a landlord sells a house it is either to another landlord or to an owner-occupier.

[xafalcon]

When are we going to see cost of living improvements.

When is a lower real minimum wage, 90 day trials and business expertise & management skills in govt now going to provide a jobs boom.

We will see cost of living improvements once mortgage holders start re-fixing at lower rates. But the blue team and RBNZ can't claim any credit for inflation reduction, as these effects were primarily imported. Domestic inflation is still well above historical levels thanks to overspending local councils, theiving insurance companies and local trades people to name just a few. If NZD continues to fall, or the middle east conflict gets nasty, the imported deflation will quickly become imported inflation, and there is no lever to pull to get that under control (though Adrian will likely respond antway, too late and too forcibly once again)

The jobs boom will happen when enough of our brightest and best workers have left for greener pastures leaving their roles vacant, so long as government doesn't open flood gates of immigration to suppress wages growth (which they are likely to do). So I'm not seeing any boom or even a small pop under this blue team

[Bjauck]

xafalcon: Whatever will "generation offend" do about this? How will they cope with no longer being agreed with, or listened to? In NZ they skip over to Australia for a better lifestyle and keep in touch with the oldies via ComputerScreen.

Bring it on. It's what the whole world needs - a reality check of the whole PC culture Yep old Putin started the trend. Everybody knows their place when PC “disappears”.

But our spineless leader is far too woke to follow. He spends way too much time trying to be likeable in the vein hope of being re-elected. His constant trash-talking of Seymour's treaty bill is sickening, and frankly undemocratic A politician being likeable to try to get elected. What next?

[xafalcon]

QUOTE xafalcon They would sell to another party that values them more highly than the current owners - just like any other sale and purchase arrangement, from toilet paper to jumbo jets The house does not disappear. So home ownership rates may stop declining.

People generally don't "invest" into their own home. They buy for reasons of stability, ability to customise, develop a family environment, show off to their friends etc Everybody invests their capital into their house. Some cannot afford home ownership though as they are outbid by those buying to rent out. It is still one of the most tax effective ways of building a nest egg, if you can afford it.

Many people have purchased rentals because they or their parents got burned by other options - shares, bullion, small businesses, finance company deposits etc True, the tax rules are not the only reason so much of NZ household wealth is invested in real estate.

A house is always there, it's tangible, and can be lived in if circumstances change. Hence "safe as houses” Notwithstanding deficient building codes, and the effects of climate change on weather and rising sea levels?

Rentals do not provide the windfall profits that you see printed in the papers, online etc. They are steady returns, beat inflation, but like other low-risk options they provide only modest returns. Different areas of NZ have experienced different returns. Owners can have the help of leverage to be able to purchase. Inflationary government policies assist the capital gains aspect. Hence the concern over the current tax system not treating different asset classes and income sources fairly, and resulting in warped and unproductive allocation of capital in NZ.

And without private landlords, any government would be screwed. And it only takes a small minority to sell their rental, and the market get tipped into shortage again, and rents spiral upwards again. A delicate balance needs to be found. Shortage of housing stock is an issue. However if a landlord sells a house it is either to another landlord or to an owner-occupier.

I have said my piece. I disagree with your perspective, as you do with mine. It's not my intention to try to convince others that I'm correct, rather I'm just putting my current thoughts out there. And maybe time will even prove me wrong?

I'll leave it at that

PS I do realise that houses don't disappear when sold......

And i prefer the handle PooTin for the Russian dictator

[Aaron]

The 2 state solution was a proposal to allow Palestinians to have their own separate state (country). So it is not similar to NZ, where maori want a separate system within a single country.

Tino rangatiratanga means "self-determination, sovereignty, independence, autonomy. The term itself is rooted in a Māori worldview, and there is no one English term which fully encapsulates its meaning."

Tino Rangatiratanga for Maori means a two state solution. You can't have sovereignty without a separate state. And membership to that new state would be dependent on your race and I guess they still want membership to the state of NZ as well.

Very confusing, no wonder people are getting upset when there are no clear boundaries and no successful precedent for a way forward that keeps everyone happy.

[Daytr]

The family home is somehow different? How is that?

A family home is just as much an investment as any business - it generates a return for the investor through eliminated rental payments, it generates capital gain when sold

And just because some other countries are doing something, doesn't mean it is a good idea or that we need to follow them. America has free access to guns, but we don't follow that lead. Saudi Arabia stones criminals, but we don't do that. Singapore has the death penalty, we don't

Application of taxes can't be on a case by case basis otherwise distortions will be created. A classic example is rental property mortgage interest tax deductibility. The red team decided to tax rental businesses on revenue rather than profit, the only business in NZ that is taxed this way. Warnings were ignored. And rents increased 25-40% as a result, and they will never return to previous levels even though the tax change is being reversed

If a CGT is introduced, the exact same thing will happen in whatever sectors are targeted. People don't spend their lives building their retirement funds to have it taken it away through an envy tax grab

The government needs to cut its cloth to suit income, just like its citizens have to. Our family never got any paid maternity leave, why is this now so generous, and what benefit does this welfare provide NZ inc - zero, its a dumb spend. Tax payer funded child care, we never got that, another dumb spend. Emergency motel housing, ditto. Paying redress for 200 year old deeds done by the English monarchy, ditto, take it up with Charlie boy. Socialising the cost of farming activities while allowing farmers to retain all profits is also dumb spending. Signing up to climate change agreements while NZ contributes a massive 0.01% while the big boys get off scott-free, yet another ridiculous spend

I could go on......

Show me hard evidence that capital gains taxation is beneficial

Typically, when selling the family home you need to buy another, I.e. you could be moving town for work etc. Being taxed on the family home say 25% when you have to purchase another wouldn't work and it would prevent freedom of movement etc. Having your own has utility of course, but tax is already paid on the money paying off the hose.

No one needs a rental property; it is an investment not for your own utility.
The problem we have as if you are wealthy it doesn't pay to have income, it pays to invest and have that tax free gain.
I'm not comparing NZ to Saudi Arabia, I'm comparing it to Australia, the UK, USA, Canada etc.
The evidence is obvious, its another source of Government income that spreads the tax burden and as I said other taxes in theory could be reduced.

As for your other questions, literally times have changed and most households to even afford a home for their kids need a double income.
You really went on a tangent with the other stuff and its not worth a response to be frank. The world changes and you either adapt or get left behind.
NZ is being left behind to protect the already wealthy.

[xafalcon]

Typically, when selling the family home you need to buy another, I.e. you could be moving town for work etc. Being taxed on the family home say 25% when you have to purchase another wouldn't work and it would prevent freedom of movement etc. Having your own has utility of course, but tax is already paid on the money paying off the hose.

No one needs a rental property; it is an investment not for your own utility.
The problem we have as if you are wealthy it doesn't pay to have income, it pays to invest and have that tax free gain.
I'm not comparing NZ to Saudi Arabia, I'm comparing it to Australia, the UK, USA, Canada etc.
The evidence is obvious, its another source of Government income that spreads the tax burden and as I said other taxes in theory could be reduced.

As for your other questions, literally times have changed and most households to even afford a home for their kids need a double income.
You really went on a tangent with the other stuff and its not worth a response to be frank. The world changes and you either adapt or get left behind.
NZ is being left behind to protect the already wealthy.

A lengthy reply, but you didn't answer the only question I posed, except with a wishy washy generalisation of the typical verbiage that proponents always dole out, with the addition of hope that other taxes may be lowered (good luck with that one, if they won't even inflation adjust PAYE bands there is zero chance IMO)

Proponents of CGT often can't identify the problem that a CGT would solve. It generally comes down to envy of successful people vs how their own lives turned out. Are you one of those, or can you put forward a coherent and factual reasoned explanation without assumptions that invalidate any serious analysis

Your position with non-CGT on family home is not rational. House values would simply adjust to meet the market, and relocation payments would increase to reflect. The tax is not crippling. Eg $1M house appreciates by 3%pa, held for 5 years, 3% sales commission, CGT at your 25% = $31,400. And you house nets $1.094M for your next purchase

Including family homes would allow the tax rate to fall from 25% to 10% to yield the same tax amount

And tax is also paid on any money paid towards a rental property. I've done this for over 30 years and it's a fact

I assume you also see CGT applying to businesses. Which also operate at zero profit as cash flow is placed back into the business. Eg farms, plumbers, mechanics, etc etc

[Bjauck]

A lengthy reply, but you didn't answer the only question I posed, except with a wishy washy generalisation of the typical verbiage that proponents always dole out, with the addition of hope that other taxes may be lowered (good luck with that one, if they won't even inflation adjust PAYE bands there is zero chance IMO)

Proponents of CGT often can't identify the problem that a CGT would solve. It generally comes down to envy of successful people vs how their own lives turned out. Are you one of those, or can you put forward a coherent and factual reasoned explanation without assumptions that invalidate any serious analysis
…

Surely the successful folk are those who earn huge incomes from personal expertise and effort. Huge incomes are taxed heavily. Whereas those who have capital gains boosted by inflation and general market conditions could be seen as riding society’s coat tails?