Comvita - CVT

[Joshuatree]

Yeah its always been the worst taste wise; it used to be the least valued honey.Food Manufacturers would buy it in bulk because it was by far the cheapest and blend it in to mask the strong slightly unpleasant flavour.

[Ogg]

Just another version of old news ...or somethig new?

just buy a bog standard bush honey and save heaps.

Yep, I've been doing that for a few years now.

All Manuka honey has the active ingredient. The "tested stuff" just has a guarantee that it has a certain level.

However, it's industry standard to test an entire batch once, and then label everything. If the results come back low, then they just retest it on another sample until it passes.

What's interesting is that you can actually pay and get a test done yourself at a lab (do a google search). I've done it once, (it's under $100). I bought a third party brand on trademe. This guy was an independent producer who claimed his stuff was really high. I got it tested and it came back way lower. It was still "OK" but was way under what he said.

The industry is full of problems and needs regulation. The UMF and MGO standards are really just marketing gimmicks. There need to be a new standard that is recognised worldwide and independently managed. This would kill Comvita share price though.

The best thing to do is buy "untested Manuka honey", but make sure it's 100% Manuka honey. Don't buy the multiflora stuff either, that's where they blend other honey and it only contains 10% Manuka.

I've found the untested "Arataki Manuka Honey" at the supermarket the best as it's 100% Manuka honey and you're not paying sky high tested prices. It's still semi expensive but it's like playing lotto. You might get a good batch, then the next week get a bad batch. Obviously you wouldn't know but in the long term it would average out. This produces the best price to benefit ratio. Just my 2 cents.

Arataki Untested:

Arataki-Manuka-Honey.jpg

Arataki Tested:

Attachment 8245

[Sideshow Bob]

Seems like a no-brainier for the industry that they have to come up with an independent, clear scientifically based standard - for long term value for the entire industry. Otherwise it becomes who has the biggest marketing budget and promote their 'standard'. I wouldn't have thought it would be too hard, but a lot of vested interests. I guess a few must have something to hide/lose and be doing something dodgy - otherwise would be into it.

[GTM 3442]

Seems like a no-brainier for the industry that they have to come up with an independent, clear scientifically based standard - for long term value for the entire industry. Otherwise it becomes who has the biggest marketing budget and promote their 'standard'. I wouldn't have thought it would be too hard, but a lot of vested interests. I guess a few must have something to hide/lose and be doing something dodgy - otherwise would be into it.

Also a whacking great patent/trademark enforcement budget. But that might have too long a timeframe to suit New Zealand business.

[Ogg]

Seems like a no-brainier for the industry that they have to come up with an independent, clear scientifically based standard - for long term value for the entire industry. Otherwise it becomes who has the biggest marketing budget and promote their 'standard'. I wouldn't have thought it would be too hard, but a lot of vested interests. I guess a few must have something to hide/lose and be doing something dodgy - otherwise would be into it.

The problem isn't the scientific method. It's how the results are presented to the public.

It's kind of similar to the financial ratings industry, where you have Moody's, S&P and Fitch Ratings. They are all using the same method but they all represent ratings differently. For example, Aa1 vs AA+

With Manuka honey they're just measuring the non-peroxide activity. All the UMF system does is convert it to a readable number, while the MGO system measures the methylglyoxal compound but it's scientifically the same thing. The third party producers do the same test, but label their honey different, normally they say 30+, or 20+ "Active", which looks similar to the UMF standard but doesn't contain the words UMF (which is the patented part).

Comvita have done a really good job promoting their rating system that it's kind of became the defacto system. The label "UMF" has become a generic trademark. It's a similar problem that Xerox had in the 1970's when everybody started saying "Xerox" and they were in danger of losing their trademark.

Comvita have to be careful because they need to protect their IP but also balance the market and enable fair competition. What I think should happen is that Comvita should be forced to allow others to use their UMF system for a small reasonable fee. At the moment they won't allow anybody to use it. Third party producers should be able to use it for a reasonable fee that's been set by the government. This would probably hit Comvita's share price in the short term but it would be the best for the industry long term.

[jonu]

The problem isn't the scientific method. It's how the results are presented to the public.

It's kind of similar to the financial ratings industry, where you have Moody's, S&P and Fitch Ratings. They are all using the same method but they all represent ratings differently. For example, Aa1 vs AA+

With Manuka honey they're just measuring the non-peroxide activity. All the UMF system does is convert it to a readable number, while the MGO system measures the methylglyoxal compound but it's scientifically the same thing. The third party producers do the same test, but label their honey different, normally they say 30+, or 20+ "Active", which looks similar to the UMF standard but doesn't contain the words UMF (which is the patented part).

Comvita have done a really good job promoting their rating system that it's kind of became the defacto system. The label "UMF" has become a generic trademark. It's a similar problem that Xerox had in the 1970's when everybody started saying "Xerox" and they were in danger of losing their trademark.

Comvita have to be careful because they need to protect their IP but also balance the market and enable fair competition. What I think should happen is that Comvita should be forced to allow others to use their UMF system for a small reasonable fee. At the moment they won't allow anybody to use it. Third party producers should be able to use it for a reasonable fee that's been set by the government. This would probably hit Comvita's share price in the short term but it would be the best for the industry long term.

Ogg, you obviously have a fair amount of industry knowledge, yet quite a lot of what you have said in your last two posts is incorrect or similar to the misinformation that you claim to be debunking (particularly the reference to Arataki's manuka honey in post 332). It is my understanding that Comvita are very keen for everybody to use the UMF standard.

By way of disclosure I have recently become a Comvita employee after contracting to them for a number of years, but in no way am I speaking on behalf of the company.

[Ogg]

Ogg, you obviously have a fair amount of industry knowledge, yet quite a lot of what you have said in your last two posts is incorrect or similar to the misinformation that you claim to be debunking (particularly the reference to Arataki's manuka honey in post 332). It is my understanding that Comvita are very keen for everybody to use the UMF standard.

By way of disclosure I have recently become a Comvita employee after contracting to them for a number of years, but in no way am I speaking on behalf of the company.

There are some licensed UMF agents. Comvita are keen for everybody to use it at the "right price". The price is so high that most don't use it. There's nothing wrong about this as it's their right and their IP. The problem is that the general public are being mislead and don't understand the system. It's a huge competitive advantage and it's now became an antitrust issue.

I've never worked in the industry, just done alot of research online.

I don't have anything against Comvita. It's a great company...I'm just bummed I didn't buys shares at $4.

[jonu]

I would suggest that "most don't use it" because it suits their purposes, not because of expense. By not using UMF or the MGO scale they are angling to obtain a premium for low grade honey by fudging what it really is.

Again my views are are my own and not that of the company.

[kiwidollabill]

Ok, I have a fair amount of industry knowledge around this so I'll try and set a few things straight.

The UMF grading system is not Comvitas, it is managed by the UMFHA http://www.umf.org.nz/. Each member is charged a few k in levys a year, the majority of the honest (and some of the dishonest) players use this system.

The lion share of all manuka testing is now done via Analytica Laboratories who have pioneered (with aid of UMFHA and govt research funding) a number of validated tests to identify what 'manuka' is (c.f. Kanuka, Australian Honeybush etc) and how it can be graded. In concert with UoA they have developed the handheld device mentioned in the article. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...honey-launched, the market for this device is not really identifying fakes, but more for production control.

So the 'industry' has been working pretty hard to get a standard established, the biggest ones at fault are MPI. When this broke https://www.mpi.govt.nz/food-safety/...oney-products/ the Chinese CIQ gave MPI at absolute earful, there is now a real risk the Chinese will ignore any NZ based standard for Manuka honey. The most recent release about tightening up import standards are also as a direct result of this.

As for Mr Bray..... he has a vested interest in ensuring that the pollen analysis continues to incorrectly classify Kanuka honey as Manuka (since Kanuka is the majority species over the SI).

[winner69]

So all this weekend discussion is just 'noise' and won't have any effect on the CVT share price?

Life goes on and CVT will still sells heaps of product and make ever increasing profits which will result in a higher share price and bigger dividends

Results announcement tomorrow - that bee exciting