ATM - A2 Milk Corporation Limited

[couta1]

2 days ago you sounded pretty enthusiastic about where the SP was heading, & critical of those expressing caution.
Doesn't quite square up with what it appears you were actually thinking, i.e. the reverse, expecting the price to drop (& therefore selling & rebuying at a lower price).
Or have I missed something?

I'm still enthusiastic about the long term trajectory of the sp hence why I'm actually holding more shares than I did last week, selling and rebuying more is a bullish strategy from my perspective.

[Cyclical]

Yeah, we might be off topic here, but it's quite relevant to what one or two of us are up to with this stock...

you still would have to pay tax at some stage , just in a different year and it would be more tax than your 33k example cause you made more. so its all relative. unless your claiming tax losses and then not declaring your tax on the gain. that would be naughty.

Not necessarily. It would be prudent to use caution so as not to appear as blatant tax avoidance, however, at this point in time you may consider yourself as a trader (and let's face it, most of us have probably been doing a fair bit of trading this FY given the market turmoil, for whatever personal reasons) and you're up significantly while you've been swapping in and out of shares deciding where to put your funds long term... As things settle down, you dial back on the trading, realise some losses here and there that negate the previously realised gains. And then you might think, right, ATM looks like a good long term prospect and you think they'll be paying a dividend in the coming years, I'll buy a shed load at about the same price I sold them for the other day, but sit on them for the years ahead and quit "trading" at that point. Does that mean you pay tax on capital gains in the years ahead?

I don't trade but recently set up a third account for that purpose. My understanding of trading is you pay trade on any capital gain off set by any losses and while some say if I don't sell the gains then NO TAX. But eventually you will sell booking a gain then pay tax......... simply put one can use a yearly starting cash profit/loss balance for holdings and pay/refund tax accordingly?

Probably best this topic is taken to the off market section but as an aside you are confusing trading profit with capital gain on a long term hold, the latter is not taxable under current NZ law.

I'll run with that until I learn otherwise.

if your a trader your a trader no matter the lenght of time held unless i believe separate entities are used and kept that way. so your pay tax no matter what.

Once a trader, never an investor? So because the kid traded a few shares with his paper round money back in '87, he's tainted forever as a trader and will be treated as such for tax purposes for the remainder of his life? Seems rough.

ATM's looking good to short ;-)

[bull....]

Yeah, we might be off topic here, but it's quite relevant to what one or two of us are up to with this stock...



Not necessarily. It would be prudent to use caution so as not to appear as blatant tax avoidance, however, at this point in time you may consider yourself as a trader (and let's face it, most of us have probably been doing a fair bit of trading this FY given the market turmoil, for whatever personal reasons) and you're up significantly while you've been swapping in and out of shares deciding where to put your funds long term... As things settle down, you dial back on the trading, realise some losses here and there that negate the previously realised gains. And then you might think, right, ATM looks like a good long term prospect and you think they'll be paying a dividend in the coming years, I'll buy a shed load at about the same price I sold them for the other day, but sit on them for the years ahead and quit "trading" at that point. Does that mean you pay tax on capital gains in the years ahead?





I'll run with that until I learn otherwise.



Once a trader, never an investor? So because the kid traded a few shares with his paper round money back in '87, he's tainted forever as a trader and will be treated as such for tax purposes for the remainder of his life? Seems rough.

ATM's looking good to short ;-)

thats why you need different entities to separate your intentions. anyway couta and I should start chanting hammertime since hes shorting now

[dreamcatcher]

thats why you need different entities to separate your intentions. anyway couta and I should start chanting hammertime since hes shorting now

Haha. A chanting Mr bull with a slight difference to couta who OWNS his shorted shares

[dreamcatcher]

Trading profit and capital gain is the same thing its upwards SP momentum except 'Traders' pay tax on any profit offset by their losses but can buy/sell daily without any limits.

'Investors' buy and hold for longer then a year. Cannot offset losses but any capital appreciation becomes tax free.

Agree with @bull regarding two unquestionable separate accounts.

[couta1]

Haha. A chanting Mr bull with a slight difference to couta who OWNS his shorted shares

Glad you noticed the difference and my OWN shares are the only ones I will ever short.

[winner69]

Trading profit and capital gain is the same thing its upwards SP momentum except 'Traders' pay tax on any profit offset by their losses but can buy/sell daily without any limits.

'Investors' buy and hold for longer then a year. Cannot offset losses but any capital appreciation becomes tax free.

Agree with @bull regarding two unquestionable separate accounts.

But doesn’t the taxman look at ‘Dreamcatcher Trading’ and ‘Dreamcatcher Buy and Hold’ just as one (not 2) Mr Dreamcatcher and class him a trader

My first ‘discussion’ with IRD re trading was that they noticed I had 2 stocks that had never and were never likely to pay a dividend so claimed I was only in for trading gains (I gather they trawled through a couple of share registers). I was forced to disclose other ‘investing activities’ and was deemed a trader and a told once a trader always a trader etc etc.

[Blue Skies]

I'm still enthusiastic about the long term trajectory of the sp hence why I'm actually holding more shares than I did last week, selling and rebuying more is a bullish strategy from my perspective.

Cheers Couta, just checking you hadn't lost confidence in the co outlook or anything like that.
Using the opportunity for small top ups myself but not sure how long & much lower it will go before resuming heading north.

[couta1]

But doesn’t the taxman look at ‘Dreamcatcher Trading’ and ‘Dreamcatcher Buy and Hold’ just as one (not 2) Mr Dreamcatcher and class him a trader

My first ‘discussion’ with IRD re trading was that they noticed I had 2 stocks that had never and were never likely to pay a dividend so claimed I was only in for trading gains (I gather they trawled through a couple of share registers). I was forced to disclose other ‘investing activities’ and was deemed a trader and a told once a trader always a trader etc etc.

As you say I doubt 2 separate accounts means a lot, its all about frequency of trading and history etc, because we don't have a CGT and the current trading rules are grey they should just introduce a brightline test like they do with property but lessen the timeframe. Those that trade full time as a job wouldn't come under the brightline test so no probs.

[dreamcatcher]

But doesn’t the taxman look at ‘Dreamcatcher Trading’ and ‘Dreamcatcher Buy and Hold’ just as one (not 2) Mr Dreamcatcher and class him a trader .

As my LTH investment portfolio goes back years and cannot be used for trading.

Hence "Dreamcatcher Trading" a totally separate account which always 'pays tax' whether it buys/sells/holds its status never changes its sole purpose to make profit. Clear as mud I believe imo.