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  1. #1361
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enumerate View Post
    The SCFHAs seem to holding up despite all the SCF knocking.

    A tiny parcel traded at 15cents, today. There seems to be a big gap between the bid and the ask.

    I felt sure that we would see sub-10cents following the release of the Statutory Manager's report.

    Perhaps they are all held by canny South Island Scotsmen? Maybe the only ones doing the selling are the Aucklanders? I hope they haven't gone short
    Perhaps the smart money was waiting for ALF's confirmation of the Five Mile sale - ALF up 17% today.

  2. #1362
    ShareTrader Legend Beagle's Avatar
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    Or the really smart money its sitting quietly in KIPGC where investors therein sleep extremly well at night while the GFC rages on around them and they pick up a solid 8.95% return and wait for everything to get cheaper.

    Enumerate, why would the end of year financial statements be any quicker than the interim ones, perhaps there could be some speed increase because the Auditors are slightly more familiar with AH's incredible corporate web, but any significant increase in timeliness would appear to be unrealistic....but then again, oh i'd better not go there again.

    Disclosure of Interest, I have quite a few of the abovementioned security.
    Last edited by Beagle; 15-07-2010 at 02:10 PM.

  3. #1363
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Alan reckons assets are $128m. The Stat Man reckon its $132m
    Alan reckons he has $88m of clients cash. The Stat Man reckons its $96m
    Alan reckons hes got $40m of his own skin in the game. The Sta Man reckons its $36m.
    If you cite your references you will read that the Stat Manager is referring to investors in Aorangi that could include some Hubbard interests. Hubbard is referring to non-Hubbard interests. Apples and oranges - if you care to cite the proper details. Also, Allan says "approximately" - maybe he is recounting from memory as at that time he was in Statutory Management.

    Alan reckons its a Mortgage Company. The Stat Man thinks its morphed into a finance company
    Alan says it has loans and mortgages. The Stat Man reckons the money has gone, in part, to AH's own financial interests and trusts. Some loans appear not to be secured by land and some loans appear to have no registered security.
    Alan is silent on Aorangi money going into Trusts (Otipua Charitable Trust, Oxford Charitable Trust, Regent Charitable Trust, Morgan Charitable Trust, Benmore Charitable Trust, and
    Wai-iti Charitable Trust.) formed in March 2010 into which he was transferring his personal assets.
    Alan is silent on Aorangi money going to Te Tua Trust. The Stat Man says this Trust was giving interest free loans and it seems some of those loans are in arrears.
    No here you are being more mischievous. As far as I can tell, Allan has not expressed any view on any of this - it is you putting words into his mouth. You are also representing the Statutory Managers position with a great deal more definition than even the Statutory Manager, himself.

    So ... are you laying a trap for those with weak minds and a nervous disposition?

    I am reminded of my Kipling:

    IF you can keep your head when all about you
    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
    But make allowance for their doubting too;
    If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
    Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
    Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
    And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

    If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
    If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
    And treat those two impostors just the same;
    If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

    Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
    And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

    If you can make one heap of all your winnings
    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
    And lose, and start again at your beginnings
    And never breathe a word about your loss;
    If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
    To serve your turn long after they are gone,
    And so hold on when there is nothing in you
    Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

    If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
    ' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
    if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
    If all men count with you, but none too much;
    If you can fill the unforgiving minute
    With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
    Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
    And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
    There, much better now ... words should be used to express the truth about things ... not "twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools",

    Nothing beats a bit of Kipling ...
    Last edited by Enumerate; 15-07-2010 at 02:53 PM.
    Do not consider my postings as investment advice. I am here to share research and to speculate on what might be. The boundary between fact and conjecture might not always be clear - best to treat all comments as speculation.

  4. #1364
    Speedy Az winner69's Avatar
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    You guys finally seem to be agreeing that Alan's money go round stopped functional a little while ago ..... once his access to SCF cash dried up Alan, Aorangi etc etc was broke .... the cupboard was bare ..... probably couldn't pay any interest (in cash) or repay investors anyway

    Somebody needed to sort the mess out .... both for investors and SCF sake
    Last edited by winner69; 15-07-2010 at 02:39 PM.

  5. #1365
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    Where's Balance when you need him ... maybe he is feeling the squeeze?

    I am aware that there are at least three of you guys against just me ... I currently have you all totally outnumbered ... maybe Balance can join to restore the ... Balance.
    Last edited by Enumerate; 15-07-2010 at 02:55 PM.
    Do not consider my postings as investment advice. I am here to share research and to speculate on what might be. The boundary between fact and conjecture might not always be clear - best to treat all comments as speculation.

  6. #1366
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enumerate View Post
    If you cite your references
    The references are:
    - First Statutory managers report available here: http://www.interest.co.nz/sites/defa...July%20(2).pdf
    - Press release issued by AH on 21 june and available here. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1006/S00574.htm

    I accept that AH says his figures are approximate. However I do not accept that a man who does business on a handshake and note book does not have a closer recollection of the fund details - especially when he was aware that people were looking at his books. It is he that is quoting figures to support his position in his press release - it is for him to be as accurate as possible or in the alternative remain silent. It is he that chose to leverage his integrity in the press release - a man of integrity might also have mentioned the other issues being looked into (like the other trusts) to provide a fuller picture. You'll note I chose not to even raise the issue of Hubbard Financial Management in that post - having done so at this time could well have been mischievous since we don't know much about that and AH sure hasn't let on anything

    This is sure an enlightening thread. You've bought us Ayn Rand and Kipling in just two days. Hopefully we are in for more treats as the SCF safge moes on.

  7. #1367
    Speedy Az winner69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enumerate View Post
    Where's Balance when you need him ... maybe he is feeling the squeeze?

    I am aware that there are at least three of you guys against just me ... I currently have you all totally outnumbered ... maybe Balance can join to restore the ... Balance.
    Alan and Percy seem to have gone to ground .... they were your allies mate

  8. #1368
    Legend peat's Avatar
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    where is Balance ?
    well I'm just a Business student in the first week of 2nd semester and I cant keep up with this thread on top of my necessary reading so I wouldnt be surprised if actual working people cant keep up!!
    For clarity, nothing I say is advice....

  9. #1369
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Alan and Percy seem to have gone to ground .... they were your allies mate
    As I said, I already have you guys outnumbered ... any more on my side would be terribly unfair.
    Do not consider my postings as investment advice. I am here to share research and to speculate on what might be. The boundary between fact and conjecture might not always be clear - best to treat all comments as speculation.

  10. #1370
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enumerate View Post

    Nothing beats a bit of Kipling ...
    So how would Kipling interpret this chain of events.

    Someone quotes Alan Hubbard as being an incredibly generous man (the citation will be on the Facebook site somewhere)

    Now Farmer Brown has a spare $500k and decides to invest it in a mortgage company called Aorangi.

    Its an investment so he expects a return on that investment.

    Being a mortgage company he probably figures the money is going into a mortgage. He may even presume that where that mortgage sits in priority ranking will be reflected in the interest earn on his investment. Being a Farmer he'll probably understand a mortgage is for something to do with land and or buildings. Also being a farmer he's probably had his own mortgage at some time and will recollect signing documents with the lender. The guy behind the Mortgage company is an Accountant - all be it a tad old fashioned - but even in the good old days ledgers were kept and the quill was never far from a pot of ink. And as a religious man (hear goes my turn now) he might refer to Deuteronomy 23-20 "Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury..."

    So he slips the old accountant $500k to be invested in a mortgage.

    But what does he discover a bit further down the track. A Stat Man report which suggests:
    - his money which he though went out as a mortgage may not have had land as a security
    - if it did go to land it may not have had the land as security and the security of that land was held by a superior lender
    - the money did not go to a "foreigner" but to a "Brother"
    - that Deuteronomy (23-19) has been taken literally and money lent to the Brother has been on lent and not been charged interest.

    So it seems it wasn't Alan who was being generous - but his "Brother"

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