South Canterbury Finance Limited

[Enumerate]

Hmm - nearly time to invoke Godwins Law and get this thread closed down.

I believe I am making a valid point:

Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.

Allan Hubbard as inalienable property rights that have been usurped by the state. This is the second week of AH in Statutory Management and yet there is no word of justification for this singular and outrageous step. If it transpires that Statutory Management was invoked to take decision making capability away from Allan due to the state's interest in protecting itself from embarrassment due to the Retail Deposit Guarantee (as has been implied); this is, ipso facto, the actions of a fascist state.

If thugs had met Mr Hubbard, in the street and stole the VW ... there would be outrage. Just because the thugs turn up in suits, use the subtle violence of state regulation and promise to act "in the public interest" (whatever that means; and whenever it is, exactly, that they will tell us what it means) - there is no difference in the basic thuggery.

It is darkly appropriate that Adam Feeley, in his promotional picture for the SFO, is posting with a dark shadow cast across the SFO logo. Chilling.

Leave Allan Hubbard Alone!

[minimoke]

I believe I am making a valid point:

Fascists believe that a nation is an organic community that requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.

Allan Hubbard as inalienable property rights that have been usurped by the state. This is the second week of AH in Statutory Management and yet there is no word of justification for this singular and outrageous step. If it transpires that Statutory Management was invoked to take decision making capability away from Allan due to the state's interest in protecting itself from embarrassment due to the Retail Deposit Guarantee (as has been implied); this is, ipso facto, the actions of a fascist state.

If thugs had met Mr Hubbard, in the street and stole the VW ... there would be outrage. Just because the thugs turn up in suits, use the subtle violence of state regulation and promise to act "in the public interest" (whatever that means; and whenever it is, exactly, that they will tell us what it means) - there is no difference in the basic thuggery.

It is darkly appropriate that Adam Feeley, in his promotional picture for the SFO, is posting with a dark shadow cast across the SFO logo. Chilling.

Leave Allan Hubbard Alone!

An interesting perspective Enumerate.

If AH has inalienable property rights that would suggest we are in a libertarian society - which we aren't. We actually have very limited property rights - most of which are tied up in some law or other. There is also an argument that depositors into AH trusts also have property rights and the state has stepped in to protect them. If you want to discuss property rights we probably also should discuss fair dealing - which is "If I borrow money off you and I promise to put that money into a property mortgage then that is what I will do".

As I recall the State did have justification for the Stat Man and in an announcement from the Minister - it was stated in part as "The main objectives are to prevent fraud and reckless company management, to protect investors and to enable the orderly administration of a company's affairs."

Your "thuggery" analogy in the context of AH and Fascism is perhaps misplaced. It has been reported that a southern MP had her car door kicked and damaged by AH supporters. It is these supporters, like the proletariat who are rising up against capitalism. It is nearly like Southerners see themselves as a separate race who protest against the Wellington oppressors. Its as if AH, as the supreme leader, is superior and is free to sit outside the norms of recognised business practice. It is the SCF depositors who do not want individual rights - they want collectivism through the Deposit Guarantee. Their view is a New Order where business can be done on a handshake, money flowing through a maze of interparty lending in culture of frugality.

As for reading the tea leaves and interpreting a shadow falling across a flag I think SCF already had a very dark shadow falling over it pre Stat Man and that was of its making not Feely's. Standrd and Poors was already moving towards a full eclipse.

And I'll reiterate - I'm sure AH should be recognized for his achievements - but if there is a suspicion of wrong doing then he should be removed from his pedestal (even if temporarily) until the issues are worked out. I'd also say that the government has set a new threshold for intervention. I'm looking forward to Hotchin and Watson being placed in Stat Man while ALF works to protect their interests from the activities of these two men.

I am sure the State is trying to protect its (being the tax payer) interests in the Deposit Guarantee scheme - but this scheme relates to SCF, not AH's trusts. That the State invokes its powers on an individual which will undoubtedly impact on a corporation (SCF) stretches the logic you are trying to apply.

[Enumerate]

Miini, perhaps you can answer a very simple question: "What is the public interest that is being defended by AH Stat Mngment?".

Your first attempted answer is clearly insufficient. What fraud is being prevented? What reckless company management is being prevented? What protection is being afforded to investors in orderly administration?

Basic questions .... I would have thought that after one and a half weeks ... we would have an answer.

Instead, it seems as if you are satisfied by suspicion and innuendo. I, however, am not. Neither is our conventional system of justice which holds sway when Adam Feeley has stopped abusing his regulatory powers.

Allan Hubbard's investors in Aorangi have the same property rights as Allan. Both parties have sufficient remedies in the conventional justice system for any dispute. What is the problem here - an investor didn't get a prospectus when he invested? Do you seriously believe that Statutory Management is the solution to this problem?

Your point about MP's getting their doors kicked is irrelevant. People who support Allan Hubbard do so for a range of reasons. My concerns are with fundamental principles of justice. I am sure the MPs will get a kicking of the electoral kind if they don't pay enough attention to this issue.

It is the SCF depositors who do not want individual rights - they want collectivism through the Deposit Guarantee

So here it is ... the essence of your argument.

The Retail Deposit Guarantee is collectivist nonsense at it's worst. It was, and is, bad commercial policy. Is has always been unsound to expect the tax payer to guarantee the security of people who have entered into commercial arrangements of their own free will.

If property rights are an aspect of liberty, Benjamin Franklin said it best:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Mini, it seems you have given up; I have not.

[minimoke]

Miini, perhaps you can answer a very simple question: "What is the public interest that is being defended by AH Stat Mngment?".
...
Mini, it seems you have given up; I have not.

I'm afraid I can't answer your question. I am not privy to the workings of AH's trusts, nor to the complaints made against him, nor the information presented to the regulators that encouraged them to move in the manner they did. Nor do I know nor understand how information on this matter was likely to be passing through the regulators hands around the same time they approved the Deposit Guarantee extension. Nor do I understand how it is that Southerners get special protections (the Stat Man / Deposit Guarantee) when ALF investors get laid over a barrel with their pants down and the Govt doesn't step in.

In a fascist country I suspect the oppressors would move quickly against a wrongdoer - perhaps dragged out the door never to be seen again. Fortunately here in NZ our wheels of justice turn somewhat slower. Just look to see how long it took for charges to be brought against Petrecivic this week - when did he buy that launch?

Rest assured I haven't given up. However I'm trying to keep the personality separate from the issue. Why regulators moved against AH personally - I don't know the full picture. I am confident (though accept that confidence may be misguided) that they would not have moved given the ripples such action would undoubtedly cause unless there was a very good reason/s to do so.

If it is found they didn't have good reasons then as investors we're all ****ed!

[winner69]

Welcome to fascist New Zealand.

Do you actually think Diplock is calling the shots?!?

Maybe, just maybe, the shots aren't even being called from NZ .....

[westerly]

Great discussion between minimoke and Enumerate

One thing that seems to be forgotten with the Govt. guarantee is it originated with the GFC and was introduced to maintain confidence in the banks and extended at the same time to include finance coy's
etc. In Sept 09 the Govt. was up $85m with fees above what they had paid out.
SCF has supposedly $2b in assets so any Govt. loss would probably be minimal. The Receiver if SCF failed would be working for the Govt. so Torchlights prior charge would be settled in cash and they would have to bid for assets in competion on the open market. The big losers would be those who have borrowed from SCF as the would be forced to look for alternative finance. Marac may gain in that situation.
As a Cantabrian I sometimes think we would be better off if we did renounce the North Island

Westerly

[Pumice]

I can’t figure it out.
Is AH guilty until proven innocent.... or
Innocent until proven guilty.

[Enumerate]

While we wait for the SFO to do the business on Allan Hubbard, I wonder if we should idle the time by speculating what they will find.

I'll start things going ...

I bet they will find that Allan Hubbard has been hiding Lord Lucan in the basement of his house in Timaru ...

[Enumerate]

I can't figure it out.
Is AH guilty until proven innocent.... or
Innocent until proven guilty.

Nice.

It seems, more rather, that he is guilty until proven guilty.

[minimoke]

While we wait for the SFO to do the business on Allan Hubbard, I wonder if we should idle the time by speculating what they will find.

I'll start things going ...

I bet they will find that Allan Hubbard has been hiding Lord Lucan in the basement of his house in Timaru ...

I'll bet theres an Area 48 in one of his back paddocks which is holding the aliens that were spotted off the Kaikoura coast - you know who is funding Waihopai now don't you!!

On another note - who was it that got the SCFHA's at 10c on opening yesterday - then bumped back to 15c before closing which coincides with SCF's end of financial year?