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  1. #471
    Speedy Az winner69's Avatar
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    Would appear the trustee couldn't agree what ANF assets were worth to meet some ratio. Nobody can really argue over what one owes but what happens if i reckon my house is worth $1m but the bank says its worth only $800k .... I say I am solvent but the bank says i am insolvent

    One day we might know who was right but I would conjecture that in this case both the trustee and ANF were wrong ... prob both made their reasonable assessment of what ANF assets were worth when in reality prob less than both estimates.

    At least ALF lives for another day while the taxpayer picks up the mess for ANF

  2. #472
    Speedy Az winner69's Avatar
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    What a loser Loughlin is ..... Chris Lee (or was it his off sider) will be gutted ..... Allied may have that 'fighting spirit' Chriss admired but when they need really need a fighter Loughlin packs a sad an run aways

    I thought Loughlin had more mettle than this and he has gone down more than 1 notch in my estimation .... but he'll say he is taking the blame and doing the honourable thing

    Admission of failure I reckon and says he wasn't too convinced about with his case in calling the trustee a wally and bring his company down.
    Last edited by winner69; 21-08-2010 at 06:33 AM.

  3. #473
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    Looking through the ALF accounts and based on recent announcements, I am thinking maybe around $34m in equity left in stand-alone ALF? That would be enough to meet the bank equity covenant of $20m from end of Sept. The minimum EBITDA ratio probably more of a problem, but has been waived before. The tough ones are the leverage and interest cover ratios that are suspended until end of Sept... not sure what the specifics are there.

    ... so I'm speculating need a significant capital injection to pay down ALF bank debt by 30 Sept. Seems to me that any money to be made here on a recovery will be made by a new investor or perhaps not made at all.

    Interesting though that probably things weren't as "down to the wire" as made to look in the news when considering some comments one poster made on 17th August.

  4. #474
    Speedy Az winner69's Avatar
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    Good old Arthur Lim has it all summed re ANF demise "For Allied Farmers it means a chunk of their shareholders' funds have just disappeared off the face of the earth."

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=10667728

    Al least Alan will be happy ... ALF didn't give a fair chunk of the Hanover assets away to prop up ANF .... bondholders big sigh of relief

  5. #475
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    Can someone tell me where the Westpac and other party loans (total about $46m) secured over the Hanover estimates came from? Presumably (according to the ALF HY breakdown of acquisition) they were acquired as part of the Hanover assets? There are no cash inflows from borrowings to suggest they were new loans at HY10.

    However, I can't find any reference in the ALF notice of meeting to acquiring any liabilities. Nor can I find any similar loans in the Hanover Charging Group accounts of Jun 2009. So I am curious as to at what point these loans were taken out, where the cash went and where they were accounted for in the process of transferring Hanover assets to Allied.

  6. #476
    Speedy Az winner69's Avatar
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    ALF has had $20m-$30m Westpac loan for some years now .... I think that they felt they had had enough and got a bit nervous about it and just wanted out

    I'm pretty sure that nothing related to Westpac came through from Hangover

  7. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Good old Arthur Lim has it all summed re ANF demise "For Allied Farmers it means a chunk of their shareholders' funds have just disappeared off the face of the earth."

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=10667728

    Al least Alan will be happy ... ALF didn't give a fair chunk of the Hanover assets away to prop up ANF .... bondholders big sigh of relief
    Absolutely!

    In theory at least, it should make the capital raising easier, but unfortunately most 'investors' aren't switched on enough to see the reality of the situation - they'll just read the bad news in the paper (that ALF's finance company went into receivership) and think that its all bad for ALF, so likely it will make it harder.

    Ah well. Still enjoying the ride!

    Alan.

  8. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    ALF has had $20m-$30m Westpac loan for some years now .... I think that they felt they had had enough and got a bit nervous about it and just wanted out

    I'm pretty sure that nothing related to Westpac came through from Hangover
    But according to the HY accounts, there is $31m from Westpac and $15m from other parties (note 4) secured over Hanover Assets and included in the reconciliation of acquired value (note 10). These are on top of the other Westpac loans to ALF. So there still reads to me to be $79m+ of ALF debt of which $46m is secured over Hanover assets. The $46m is is borrowings by the Asset Management Services group (i.e. the bit set up to manage Hanover assets). Terms for this debt were still under discussion at HY reporting and therefore classified as "current".

    I would think it might be of some significance to ALF holders and Hanover investors as to how this debt came about so as to know whether there was any transfer of value or rights of which investors were unaware.

  9. #479
    Speedy Az winner69's Avatar
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    Doesn't Note 10 say they 'acquired' $40.910m of borrowings from Hanover

    The infamous $175m written down value of the hanover assets were $220m assets less the borrowings.

    So no new 'real' borrowings ... just seems that the Hangover guys managed to get rid of some debt as well in the deal

    Murkier and murkier all this seems to get

    Do you have any idea what the arrangements are between ANF and Spiers and ALF ... all that seems to have been structured to confise people

    And I still wonder what happened to the that $7.5m that Aust outfit 'committed' so Westpac would give them a bit more time ... all smoke and mirrors

    Some call this outfir AL LIED now

    Hope bond holders are safe though

  10. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Doesn't Note 10 say they 'acquired' $40.910m of borrowings from Hanover
    Yes - except that there wasn't that amount of debt in the Hanover Group Charging group accounts at June 2009 that were released prior to the transfer - not bank debt. May have been in the overall Hanover Finance Ltd accounts, at least in part (they are on the companies office - the charging accounts aren't, but I retrieved a cached copy from the Hanover site the day after the deal). So if the debt went with the assets to Allied, then I am wondering if it was actually individual loans against individual projects such as Matarangi, that were then re-financed across all of the Allied assets... which must surely have transferred risk from the banks to the Hanover investors?

    Maybe there is more detail in the Grant Samuel report which I never got to get a copy of... but none of the docs I can find say anything about transferring liabilities with those assets, eh?

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