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  1. #5596
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    Quote Originally Posted by McGinty View Post
    Agree with you there Mr Beagle, last year I backed up my own opinion, flew up to the AGM to asked questions to (what came across as) a smug board. In the weeks following that I voted with my feet and now visit the thread only to see if the story has changed - short answer yeah - nah.

    This years AGM can will be just a fluffy summary of:

    - How the boys club couldn't make the vertical integration (multiple clips of the ticket) work and now they are looking to sell the problem parts.
    - Moving into possible new digital distractions (CL8's business model is a lemon and they aren't quick enough to see this yet)
    - Over paying for Buyright and the non recourse loans are just a one off (Still)
    - The board are worth their fee increase (justified by the total Shareholder return still the last AGM....hmmm no that's still negative)

    Just of note, did anyone else notice how Paul Byrnes was paid almost $400k additional to his director fees for his consulting services? The shareholders are certainly getting there $75k worth of value with his board fees?
    Jeez ...$400k is a lot of consultancy ...wonder what he did to earn that

    Equivalent to 0.5 cents per share (I think) ...hope his efforts were eps accretive

    Almost as much as the CEO got paid
    Last edited by winner69; 25-08-2019 at 08:25 PM.
    “In a roaring bull market, knowledge is superfluous and experience is a handicap.”

    –Benjamin Graham”

  2. #5597
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Snoops me old mate.

    Read that bit about polls again ...voting WILL be done by poll... hence no need for shareholders to demand a poll

    4. Inserting a requirement that voting at meetings of shareholders will be conducted by poll and deleting clauses which addressed shareholders rights to demand polls.
    I read it differently Winner. My interpretation of that clause change is that shareholders will be specifically banned from putting resolutions up at the AGM to be voted on.

    SNOOPY
    To be free or not to be free. That is the cash-flow question....

  3. #5598
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Jeez ...$400k is a lot of consultancy ...wonder what he did to earn that

    Almost as much as the CEO got paid
    Paul Byrnes is a clever guy who has learned the Turners modus operandi well.

    Maintain seat on board (Ticket clipped). Use that position to recommend the most wonderful consultant (himself) to drive future strategies (Ticket Clipped). And what better place to discuss these forward thinking strategies than at the new Paul Byrnes owned restaurant (Ticket Clipped).

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 25-08-2019 at 08:27 PM.
    To be free or not to be free. That is the cash-flow question....

  4. #5599
    percy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    Paul Byrnes is a clever guy who has learned the Turners modus operandi well.

    Maintain seat on board (Ticket clipped). Use that position to recommend the most wonderful consultant (himself) to drive future strategies (Ticket Clipped). And what better place to discuss these forward thinking strategies than at the new Paul Byrnes owned restaurant (Ticket Clipped).

    SNOOPY
    Yes Hugh Green picked him years ago.
    Right man then,right man today.
    AIR brought in outside consults at a huge cost.
    TRA brought in Paul Byrnes.Sensible.Huge savings.
    Now were look forward to benefitting from his consultancy.
    Last edited by percy; 25-08-2019 at 08:36 PM.

  5. #5600
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    Paul Byrnes is a clever guy who has learned the Turners modus operandi well.

    Maintain seat on board (Ticket clipped). Use that position to recommend the most wonderful consultant (himself) to drive future strategies (Ticket Clipped). And what better place to discuss these forward thinking strategies than at the new Paul Byrnes owned restaurant (Ticket Clipped).

    SNOOPY
    ......and all done at arms length
    “In a roaring bull market, knowledge is superfluous and experience is a handicap.”

    –Benjamin Graham”

  6. #5601
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    I read it differently Winner. My interpretation of that clause change is that shareholders will be specifically banned from putting resolutions up at the AGM to be voted on.

    SNOOPY

    You may be correct ...I don’t really know. Need to see the full constitution y

    But if you are right well it sounds rather (what’s the word I need) ...can’t silence shareholders can we.
    “In a roaring bull market, knowledge is superfluous and experience is a handicap.”

    –Benjamin Graham”

  7. #5602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    Agree 100% mate. I am not planning on attending. Got myself all wound up and chomping on the lead for a full barking session last year and he wasn't there !
    Can't be bothered this year...timid shareholders will vote him to stay on.
    Not going this year either.
    Went last year.
    Found Byrnes bordering on confrontational and definitely defensive.
    Baker, the Chairman, was listening in with full audio and the ability to speak but never announced he was there listening and could speak.
    Creepy, deceptive and unprofessional.
    Went to road show last year also. Share price was all down hill from there.
    No longer a shareholder.
    NUF said.
    Hope it does well but have put my investment elsewhere.

  8. #5603
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    Default More Insurance Profit Mysteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    4/ I leave the most significant part of my 'profit normalisation' until last. Have a look at AR2019, note 34c, part of the insurance activities notes.

    FY2019 FY2018
    Change in Discount rate ($0.207m) ($0.120m)
    Difference between actual and assumed experience $5.745m $2.491m
    Life Investments Contracts: Difference between actual and assumed experience $0.266m $0.294m
    Total $5.804m $2.664m

    Now go to note 7, p55 in AR2019 and you will see that the $2.664m figure is reported as a 'Fair value gain on Contingent Consideration' for FY2018. Yet the equivalent figure for for FY2019 is missing, no doubt subsumed in the new expanded for this year Insurance divisions wider profits. I consider that $5.804m not repeatable and a figure that should be removed from operational profits, just like in FY2018. I don't know why Turners seem to have changed their policy on this but I am calling them out. Take out that $5.804m gain from the Turners Insurance arm operating profit (declared $8.227m for FY2019) and you will find how profitable the underlying insurance division really was in FY2019.
    The following table (from the respective Annual Reports 'Insurance Related Disclosures: Section C 'Surplus after taxation from insurance activities arose from') shows why profits from Turners insurance division, in the past, could largely be ignored in the overall profit picture. Yet over the last couple of years we certainly can't say the same. This is why I see 'insurance' as such an important piece of the profit puzzle to consider going forwards.

    FY2019 FY2018 FY2017 FY2016 FY2015
    Insurance Contracts: Change in Discount rate ($0.207m) ($0.120m) $0.164m ($0.119m) ($0.311m)
    Insurance Contracts: Difference between actual and assumed experience $5.745m $2.491m ($0.552m) $0.062m $0.138m
    Life Investments Contracts: Difference between actual and assumed experience $0.266m $0.294m $0.420m $0.599m $0.696m
    Total Insurance Profit Contribution (after tax) {A} $5.804m $2.664m $0.032m $0.542m $0.523m
    Declared Turners NPAT {B} $22.329m $23.192m $17.609m $15.573m $18.069m
    Insurance Adjustment/NPAT {A}/{B} 26.0% 11.5% 0.18% 3.48% 2.89%
    Insurance Return on Assets (NPAT) above Contract Liailiities $1.022m $0.823m $0.383m $0.307m $0.243m

    There is a reason for this. On 31st March 2017 the 'Autosure' vehicle insurance business was acquired. That means that FY2018 and FY2019 include results from 'Autosure', whereas previous years did not.

    I previously wrote:

    "I consider that $5.804m (for FY2019) not repeatable and a figure that should be removed from operational profits,"

    But I am not sure that my opinion on that score is right.

    Particularly interesting, I thought, was that Turners separated out 'Investment returns on assets in excess of insurance contract and investment contract liabilities' (AR2019 p86). I read this to be the insurance profit that can be pocketed by Turners shareholders. Fair enough and this was just over a million dollars, $1.022m, for FY2019 out of a grand total of NPAT attributable to insurance activities of $6.990m: nice.

    However, if you then move forwards to 'note I' the 'Disaggregated information' you will see the insurance profit of $6.990m split up into 'Statutory' profit of $2.834m and 'Shareholder' profit of $4.156m. This seems to contradict the information presented in section C. Is the profit we shareholders can book $1.022m or $4.156m? I don't know the answer. But it gets worse.

    If you look at the 'Operating Segments' part of the Annual Report (p53), you will see total operating profit for insurance is $8.227m. This doesn't quite tie in with the information under the 'Insurance Related Disclosures: Disaggregated Information' section of AR2019' where profit before tax is quoted to be $8.577m (The explanation for the $0.350m difference may be found on p91 of AR2019: The $350k represented a revaluation of an investment property that had already been disclosed under 'Property Plant & Equipment). Of the declared insurance earnings of $8.577m (AR2019 page 90), only $5.099m of 'shareholder earnings' -before tax- occurred over FY2019. So how is it that Turners can claim a larger $8.227m worth of insurance earnings over FY2019 in the 'Operating Segment' earnings on page 53?

    The only answer I can come up with is that Turners are claiming profits that actually belong to the likes of life policy holders as their own. I hope someone can tell me that I am reading these figures the wrong way. Because if I am right, then these 'insurance profits' claimed by Turners look very dubious.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 31-08-2019 at 09:57 PM.
    To be free or not to be free. That is the cash-flow question....

  9. #5604
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    Quote Originally Posted by biker View Post
    Not going this year either.
    Went last year.
    Found Byrnes bordering on confrontational and definitely defensive.
    Baker, the Chairman, was listening in with full audio and the ability to speak but never announced he was there listening and could speak.
    Creepy, deceptive and unprofessional.
    Went to road show last year also. Share price was all down hill from there.
    No longer a shareholder.
    NUF said.
    Hope it does well but have put my investment elsewhere.
    Boards hate AGMs to start with ....a burden they reluctantly put up with. You can sense many Chairman muttering under their breath ‘bloody shareholders’

    But need to appease them ...one day you might want more cash from them.
    “In a roaring bull market, knowledge is superfluous and experience is a handicap.”

    –Benjamin Graham”

  10. #5605
    percy
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    Well I am doing a Grant Baker this year.
    Not attending the agm.Was going to watch it live,then our neighbour asked me to collect her from the airport, when she returns from her travels.
    You gussed it 11.05 am Wednesday 18th.!!!
    Will watch later on Youtube.

  11. #5606
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    Quote Originally Posted by percy View Post
    Well I am doing a Grant Baker this year.
    Not attending the agm.Was going to watch it live,then our neighbour asked me to collect her from the airport, when she returns from her travels.
    You gussed it 11.05 am Wednesday 18th.!!!
    Will watch later on Youtube.
    Doing the full Grant Baker eh?
    Will your neighbour's suitcases fit into the luggage compartment of your Ferrari Percy? ;-P

    SNOOPY
    To be free or not to be free. That is the cash-flow question....

  12. #5607
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    Default Bank Covenants FY2016- FY2019

    I have tabulated below these important debt statistics over the last four years.

    Leverage Ratio
    Averaged Gross Bank Debt (Estimate) EBITDA Gross Bank Debt/EBITDA Maximum Standard
    FY2019 1/2 x (($251.177m - $163m) + ($230.459m - $133m)) $49.786m 1.86 2.00
    FY2018 1/2 x (($230.459m - $133m) + ($191.708m - $69m)) $51.304m 2.15 2.00
    FY2017 1/2 x (($191.708m - $69m) + ($109.327m - $0m)) $38.844m 2.99 2.00
    FY2016 1/2 x (($109.327m - $0m) + ($95.151m - $0m) ) $35.131m 2.91 2.50

    In each year I have subtracted the 'securitized debt' from the 'gross bank debt'.
    The above table indicates a 'triple fail', up until FY2019. However there are difficulties for investors in determining what the average gross bank debt is over the year. My 'arithmetic average' using the year start and end figures will overestimate the average debt if more of the incremental debt is acquired over the second half of the year, for example. So in this instance, the trend is of perhaps more interest that the absolute value.

    The indicative securitised debt for FY2018 and FY2017 may be found on p15 of AR2018. I am assuming these are representative over the year figures. That is because they do not match up with the end of year securitized debt figures on p57 AR2018.

    Unfortunately these indicative securitised debt figures have been dropped from the FY2019 report. However I did note that over FY2019, the end of year securitised loan balance increased from $145m to $175m. I have used this $30m increment to get the indicative securitised debt over FY2019 of:

    $133m + $30m = $163m.

    I have used this $163m estimate figure in the table above.

    Interest Ratio
    EBITDA Total Net Interest EBITDA/Total Net Interest Minimum Standard
    FY2019 $49.786m ($14.952m-$1.791m) 3.8 3.5
    FY2018 $51.304m ($14.344m-$1.343m) 3.9 3.5
    FY2017 $38.844m ($11.350m - $0.206m) 3.5 3.5
    FY2016 $35.131m ($11.436m - $0.353m) 3.2 3.5

    It does seem that the financial position of Turners over the last few years is becoming stronger, not weaker as some may think. However these are all minimum standards. Whether these statistics are strong enough for investors putting their money into Turners today is a matter for each individual investor to decide.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 29-08-2019 at 09:37 PM.
    To be free or not to be free. That is the cash-flow question....

  13. #5608
    percy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    Doing the full Grant Baker eh?
    Will your neighbour's suitcases fit into the luggage compartment of your Ferrari Percy? ;-P

    SNOOPY
    Plenty of room in the Nissan Sylphy's boot...lol.

  14. #5609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    I have tabulated below these important debt statistics over the last four years.

    ...

    It does seem that the financial position of Turners over the last few years is becoming stronger, not weaker as some may think. However these are all minimum standards. Whether these statistics are strong enough for investors putting their money into Turners today is a matter for each individual investor to decide.

    SNOOPY
    Just wondering whether the apparent "improvement" of their financial position (measured in in Debt / EBITDA) has anything to do with them peddling back from the finance business? If they do less finance they need less (borrowed) capital ...

    Not sure yet whether this is good for shareholders, though ... for a used car sales yard they still have plenty of liabilities on their balance sheet
    ----
    "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future" (Niels Bohr)

  15. #5610
    percy
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    Just wondering whether the apparent "improvement" of their financial position (measured in in Debt / EBITDA) has anything to do with them peddling back from the finance business? If they do less finance they need less (borrowed) capital ...

    Not sure yet whether this is good for shareholders, though ... for a used car sales yard they still have plenty of liabilities on their balance sheet
    Turners have stated they are looking for expressions of interest for Oxford Finance.Should the price be right they will sell it.Otherwise they will retain it.
    However they are still growing the business.In the year ended 31st March 2019 Oxford Finance loan book grew 9% to $254 m.
    Last edited by percy; 28-08-2019 at 08:41 AM.

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