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  1. #5361
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    Exclamation Apparently the technical term is essentialism

    I see JC has apparently put his foot in his mouth:

    'Immigrant workers were often "very caring and a lot of them have a natural affinity for it, which is important"' [https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/ind...rement-sector]

    whilst bemoaning that the new visa rules will affect the care industry.

    Best Wishes
    Paper Tiger
    om mani peme hum

  2. #5362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paper Tiger View Post
    I see JC has apparently put his foot in his mouth:

    'Immigrant workers were often "very caring and a lot of them have a natural affinity for it, which is important"' [https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/ind...rement-sector]

    whilst bemoaning that the new visa rules will affect the care industry.

    Best Wishes
    Paper Tiger
    Lots of very negative comments on that article, many about migrants being paid 'slave wages'.

    NZ is one of the easiest countries in the world to set up a business. If even a few of these negative posters got together they could set up their own business, hire locals and pay them whatever they like.

  3. #5363
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemis View Post
    Lots of very negative comments on that article, many about migrants being paid 'slave wages'.

    NZ is one of the easiest countries in the world to set up a business. If even a few of these negative posters got together they could set up their own business, hire locals and pay them whatever they like.
    Well said. Fact is SUM literally make nothing from their care center's as it is and the same goes from the villages themselves. Development profit and profit on resale is all the drives the profitability of this company. I'm aware of some smaller care service providers that are closing because of increased labor rates so this is indeed a real issue in N.Z. If we're not careful we may find we get to a point where unless you're independently wealthy you won't be able to afford decent late stage health care.
    BTW The Government have conceded to have another look at that minimum income level as they've conceded it'll be too restrictive, sorry haven't got a link, saw that on T.V.1 breakfast program earlier this week.
    Last edited by Beagle; 27-07-2017 at 02:37 PM.
    Ecclesiastes 11:2: “Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth.
    Ben Graham - In the short run the market is a voting machine but in the long run the market is a weighing machine

  4. #5364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    If we're not careful we may find we get to a point where unless you're independently wealthy you won't be able to afford decent late stage health care.
    Why?
    Because we have to pay the staff too much - is that what you are saying?
    So we should pay some a pitance so others can live a better life?

  5. #5365
    ShareTrader Legend Beagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobby41 View Post
    Why?
    Because we have to pay the staff too much - is that what you are saying?
    So we should pay some a pitance so others can live a better life?
    Already we're in a position where if you want a decent room with a decent view in dementia care the Government are not funding it enough. My Dad had to pay another $120 a week at Ryman while in dementia care 4 years or so ago just to get a basic room with a garden view window and an on suite. Extrapolate that out for the last 4 years, add in the proposed very steep caregiver wages for the next five years and if you want a decent apartment like SUM are building for their dementia patients you're looking at an occupation license model or paying dramatically higher weekly fees than it would appear the Govt are going to be able to pay on your account. Think Govt subsidy about $1400 a week in five years and real cost about $2,000 a week for a good sized apartment would be my estimate. Maybe something like $600 per week from your own funds and if you have dementia for 7 years that's perhaps over $200,000 at a guess those that want the best for their loved ones may need to find.
    Think - best quality care only for the well heeled.
    Last edited by Beagle; 27-07-2017 at 02:45 PM.
    Ecclesiastes 11:2: “Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth.
    Ben Graham - In the short run the market is a voting machine but in the long run the market is a weighing machine

  6. #5366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
    Already we're in a position where if you want a decent room with a decent view in dementia care the Government are not funding it enough. My Dad had to pay another $120 a week at Ryman while in dementia care 4 years or so ago just to get a basic room with a garden view window and an on suite. Extrapolate that out for the last 4 years, add in the proposed very steep caregiver wages for the next five years and if you want a decent apartment like SUM are building for their dementia patients you're looking at an occupation license model or paying dramatically higher weekly fees than it would appear the Govt are going to be able to pay on your account. Think Govt subsidy about $1400 a week in five years and real cost about $2,000 a week for a good sized apartment would be my estimate. Maybe something like $600 per week from your own funds and if you have dementia for 7 years that's perhaps over $200,000 at a guess those that want the best for their loved ones may need to find.
    Think - best quality care only for the well heeled.
    All that is all well and good but what are you saying the answer is?
    The post I replied to implies that the problem was paying 'high' wages to the carers. Maybe I got the wrong impression - what impression were you trying to give?

  7. #5367
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobby41 View Post
    All that is all well and good but what are you saying the answer is?
    The post I replied to implies that the problem was paying 'high' wages to the carers. Maybe I got the wrong impression - what impression were you trying to give?
    It is a balancing act...Lower income Kiwis could become suspicious and disgruntled if they think that the government is providing visas to lower paid immigrants as a way of keeping wage rates down (and reducing the strain on the government budget for government subsidised services.) The National Party also risks alienating its supporters if they cannot reduce tax. However I think if you want universally available quality services - in a society that has a reasonable and socially harmonious spread in incomes - you may need to accept that the government needs more tax.

    As it is currently, people (single or both spouses in care) have to pay for even their basic care if they have assets over about $215,000. So if you are unfortunate enough to get dementia and need care for years, your invested savings could be all but wiped out. This type of "dementia tax", when proposed, was widely condemned in the UK before their last election as it would mean that many would not be able to pass on their house/many assets to their heirs as they had been unlucky enough to get a debilitating illness.

  8. #5368
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    Quote Originally Posted by dobby41 View Post
    All that is all well and good but what are you saying the answer is?
    The post I replied to implies that the problem was paying 'high' wages to the carers. Maybe I got the wrong impression - what impression were you trying to give?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    It is a balancing act...Lower income Kiwis could become suspicious and disgruntled if they think that the government is providing visas to lower paid immigrants as a way of keeping wage rates down (and reducing the strain on the government budget for government subsidised services.) The National Party also risks alienating its supporters if they cannot reduce tax. However I think if you want universally available quality services - in a society that has a reasonable and socially harmonious spread in incomes - you may need to accept that the government needs more tax.

    As it is currently, people (single or both spouses in care) have to pay for even their basic care if they have assets over about $215,000. So if you are unfortunate enough to get dementia and need care for years, your invested savings could be all but wiped out. This type of "dementia tax", when proposed, was widely condemned in the UK before their last election as it would mean that many would not be able to pass on their house/many assets to their heirs as they had been unlucky enough to get a debilitating illness.
    Well said. The issue as I see it is that the sentiment is fine, lets pay Kiwi workers another $7 an hour, but for round the clock 3 shifts a day 24/7 care in a dementia or hospital ward that's another $1,176 per week x number of staff on 24/7 duty plus extra cleaners wages e.t.c.. Someone has to pay, the taxpayer or user pays, its really that simple. Who is going to pay ? All nice and sweet to talk about the theory of paying New Zealanders a decent wage but how do service providers provide that service without going broke like some small private ones already have ?
    Last edited by Beagle; 27-07-2017 at 04:15 PM.
    Ecclesiastes 11:2: “Divide your portion to seven, or even to eight, for you do not know what misfortune may occur on the earth.
    Ben Graham - In the short run the market is a voting machine but in the long run the market is a weighing machine

  9. #5369
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    I find it hard to have sympathy for an employer who pays their salary staff such pitiful wages and complains about it.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/ind...irement-sector

    disc. Hold SUM but considering

  10. #5370
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    Yes its so pathetic. Goalposts will have to be shifted as bull has suggested and the returns may be a little less in future. The staff do such an amazing job(generally; i do see some pretending to care though) and get shafted for it; not valued at all,an offensive rort. At least they aren't being paid peanuts anymore (no credit to SUM)so hopefully the care will be even better now. So yes Roger sorry to rain on your sweet smelling money parade; but less returns and more humanity is a good balance.

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