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  1. #201
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    It now appears most markets in asia have confirmed bottoms in place and even by the most conservative TA standards are now in a bull market phase.

    USA is lagging. but that's how it should be as ASIA will be the first region to recover they rae much better placed.
    I recall Marc Faber stating back in late feb how totally undervalued singaporean stocks were(vs US stocks that werent all that undervalued). Those who listend have done well with the exchange up 40%+

    That's not to say that this current bull market might only be a short one (perhaps 12-24 monhts?)

    If you are an equity investor and you arent currently long the market. You have to be asking yourself why not.
    “If you're worried about falling off the bike, you’d never get on.”

  2. #202
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    Continuing the friendly discussion from the Daily S&P500 index tracker thread

    Ananda.. The problem in how you see a contradiction in my post maybe caused in how you think the stockmarket indexes works within a secular bear cycle as opposed to a secular bull markets ..there are many differences.

    Refer your table (post#82) (which I can't unfortunately seem to copy over to this thread) ...Apart from 30 years bonds you haven't mentioned any of the more important secondary drivers mentioned by Minsky**. You have included lots of what I jokingly call "media drivers" because they work for a day after the media mentions them ...Many secondary drivers (yeah alright.. some "media drivers" as well) work accurately only at certain stages of cyclic event within a certain stage of a secular event....These are best described as specific situational indicators (did you see my 23 specific situational indicators to determine the birth of the new cyclic bull calf on this thread Post #177). Even though most of my OK specific situational indicators had turned positive the two most important indicators were still undetermined DOW theory a yes? but the most major indicator Copper was not yet confirmed it had a lift saying 4 to 6 weeks equities may commence a sustained uptrend but it wasn't until the 13 of march 2009 that the copper indicator had confirmed positively (see post#202 on this same page). Out of all the indicators the DOW and Copper (commodity count) were the most important two.The Copper indicator has a 100% success rate in picking the bottom of a share market (hasn't failed yet over the last 130 years!!!)..... As one can now guess many people + media recite these drivers/indicators at the wrong time, recite the weaker indicators rather than the stronger ones and using this misplaced logic to forecast a wrong outcome which no body remembers anyway...a reason why media keeps doing it without due accountability. ....examples.. peak oil excuse causing high oil prices is an absolute classic... closely followed by peak unemployment going to cause an economy to suffer further and cause a recovering share market and economy to crash again.

    When indicators are used correctly they are forecasting gems to the investor...... Unemployment peaks can be seen in the early and middle stages of a cyclic bull and can be used as a OK indicator (not always perfect) to determine what phase of the cyclic bull cycle the market is in ...with these OK indicators you need many more to confirm each other as they are not totally reliable on their own..

    I have developed specific situational indicators to determine the death of a cyclic bull market within a secular bear cycle but research is not completed yet so not willing to publish them just now ...in its beta form most of these indicators are not firing negative signals yet..so the cyclic bull is still healthy.

    Minsky should be researched deeper...

    **Prof Minsky has labeled 4 main indicator/drivers to a share market
    Volatility (vix)
    Valuation (PE & bonds)
    Anecdotal evidence ..many!!! ...one being investors behavioural actions
    Secular market profile (bear or bull and at what stage)


    Ananda
    The Fundamental* drivers you mentioned differ between 1981 and 2009
    (*your key fundamental drivers is disputed by me but that's been covered already)

    Sadly your examples..the two cyclic bull markets starts ..the 1981 compared with 2009 is comparing cheese with chalk...these two bull calves are different species.
    These two bull recoveries( 1981/2009) are so different that you can not compare them with economic statistics.
    Why???..because 1981 was the start of the first cyclic bull within the new just born secular bull cycle. the 2009 year sees the 2nd cycle bull within a middle aged secular bear market.

    Without going though the whole lot ..lets take the first one... CPI...Yes I noticed the big difference in 1981 CPI (your figure +8.9% my figures is +10%) to that of 2009 CPI. (your figure -1.3% my figure ?) It does not mean the 2009 bull is prematurely dying due to low CPI-itis + all you other stuff on your table
    Explanation, its a secular thing....the CPI Inflation is always highest (+10% and higher) at the end of a normal secular bear market cycle and beginning of a secular bull (1981)
    Paradoxically, CPI Inflation is always the lowest (-1% to +2%) during the end of a normal secular Bull market cycle and beginning of a secular bear cycle.

    High deflation (-5% or lower say -10%) usually means something is systemically broken. It can happen in both cyclic bull or cyclic bear markets and its secular bull or bear market cycle period usually ends early with a premature death.

    Rising and high Inflation (+10% or higher) is a strong specific situational indicator in determining that a secular bear cycle is nearing an end (maybe 3 years left before death).

    As you see the low 2009 CPI is showing the secular bear is still in great health with many more years of life.
    Last edited by Hoop; 30-10-2009 at 11:08 PM.

  3. #203
    Senior Member ananda77's Avatar
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    Hoop:

    ...do Really appreciate the issues you write and know a lot about, but Mr.Hoop, to me you sound like an academic who is stuck head over heels in a theoretical loop;
    what you describe as primary drivers of a bull market is no more or less a consequence of market pundits, be they individual or institutional, tossing around their CASH;
    ...and that (CASH AND THE WILLINGNESS OF PEOPLE TO PART WITH IT) is what people should look at first as the most important determinant of a market situation

    ...as for the contradiction thing, I was referring to the fact that you are 87% invested at present, so logically you ARE saying, you are 70% sure this current cyclical bull will continue to run, despite severe potential restrictions facing the most universal driver for ANYTHING to go ahead and that is CASH (like: potentially higher interest rates, higher taxes; dwindling demand, over-indebted households etc,etc,)

    ...after today's trading session, the wave 3 down has further found fertile soil to grow and unlike the intermediate wave 3 down in 2008, this wave 3 down will be of primary degree within the -as you agreeably call it- a very healthy and alive secular bear market

    Midnight Candles http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Feature...s+November.htm

    William H Gross (Pimco -managing director-): What you see in the bond market is often what you get. Broadening the concept to the U.S. bond market as a whole (mortgages + investment grade corporates), the total bond market yields only 3.5%. To get more than that, high yield, distressed mortgages, and stocks beckon the investor increasingly beguiled by hopes of a V-shaped recovery and “old normal” market standards. Not likely, and the risks outweigh the rewards at this point. Investors must recognize that if assets appreciate with nominal GDP, a 4–5% return is about all they can expect even with abnormally low policy rates. Rage, rage, against this conclusion if you wish, but the six-month rally in risk assets – while still continuously supported by Fed and Treasury policymakers – is likely at its pinnacle. Out, out, brief candle.


    Kind Regards
    Last edited by ananda77; 31-10-2009 at 10:30 PM.

  4. #204
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    Ananda
    Quote ...Hoop:
    ...do Really appreciate the issues you write and know a lot about, but Mr.Hoop, to me you sound like an academic who is stuck head over heels in a theoretical loop;


    Nah...not loop..cycle!

    Hmmm...if that means learning mathematics at school makes one a mathematics academic..then yes..I'm guilty as charged.

    Hey..Surprise!!.."Hoop the academic" does practical as well ..been excellent this year my best year ever ..even had to pay the taxman last year as well

    It seems you are a non-believer in basic Share Market Theory...Oh well your choice...takes all sorts of investors to make a market....wish you Ananda the best of luck ..you'll need it.

    oh ..forgot to mention
    Yep... still 85% invested...going to ride this bucking Bull ..yeeeehaaa
    Last edited by Hoop; 01-11-2009 at 11:55 AM.

  5. #205
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    Hi Hoop

    Most people/analysts/experts are saying that this bull is going to come crashing down. In fact some people are saying I'm mad not to have sold shares in mid October. My theory is to hold my shares as the market goes down and when it hits the bottom its a good time to look for any opportunities to buy more and then ride the market back up.
    Any thoughts on this?

    RazorX
    "Contrariwise", continued Tweedledee, "If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't.
    "Today is already the tomorrow which the bad economist yesterday urged us to ignore" H Hazlitt

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by RazorX View Post
    Hi Hoop

    Most people/analysts/experts are saying that this bull is going to come crashing down. In fact some people are saying I'm mad not to have sold shares in mid October. My theory is to hold my shares as the market goes down and when it hits the bottom its a good time to look for any opportunities to buy more and then ride the market back up.
    Any thoughts on this?

    RazorX
    Hi RazorX
    Most people/analysts/experts are saying that this bull is going to come crashing down. Depends on what media you read or hear. for example on SKY95 CNBC closing bell after the big sell down last friday on Wall St, they polled the traders on the market floor and over 70% said the market would be higher than now by Xmas. Who's right?

    In fact some people are saying I'm mad not to have sold shares in mid October....and as usual I betcha they said that to you when the correction started last week. For the record... TA didnt start diverging until the 20th October on the ASX ..At mid October everything was still rosy..no reason to sell then.

    My theory is to hold my shares as the market goes down and when it hits the bottom its a good time to look for any opportunities to buy more and then ride the market back up.
    Holding shares as the market goes down is only right when:-

    1 If its a 80% (70% is OK for some hardier souls or long term investors) chance that the outcome is known e.g a mild bull market correction or something less, and you are using a medium to long term investment strategy. Short term traders are already out...gone!!!..irrespective of this being a 5% zigzag, bull correction or something more sinister.

    2 If the downtrend is more severe or turns into a cyclic bear cycle some stocks become defensive... unless they trigger the TA sell signal you could keep them. Some stocks are inversely correlated meaning the steeper the drop the more they rise obviously ..you keep these too, but ditch all your remaining stocks...cash is king. The more experienced traders do play the sucker rally game with good results.

    3 If you have an extra long term investment strategy but only when you are in a secular bull market cycle.

    4 You have preplanned stops levels in place forall your stocks...as insurance just in case it is that unexpected 20-30% chance that comes true as outlined in 1.

    5 Probably something else that haven't thought of at this moment of writing.

    Bottom?? ..never easy, nearly if not impossible to predict that point, most people during May 2009 did not think the March 2009 was the bottom. There are still some people out there on the sidelines even now who still think March 2009 is not the bottom and this 50% increase is one mother of all cyclic bear market rallies. As silly as it may sound in hindsight they have missed one of the biggest rallies. The ASX has dispelled that BM rally reasoning as it has broken up through the primary downtrend at the end of August 2009 (NZX50 much earlier in May 2009) but the DOW and the S&P500 have still yet to do this....so this reasoning lives on in the biggest financial area in the world. The respected Elliot wave principle shows that the 10500 on the Dow is the end of the up wave and retest of the bottom or worse is predicted...who right?

    Rather than play the hold as the market goes down game.. If you new to this game or only been in it a while and have limited investment tools at your disposal, I suggest you to follow Phaedrus index charts with his improved indicator and adopt those investment strategy signals.

    ..Ride the market back up..
    oh yes..definitely buy here and keep buying by averaging up...commonsense really, but its amazing how many investors don't do this...major reasons vary but usually they keep seeing invisible bear demons and keep listening and believing in the permabears and act accordingly....easy in hindsight though..eh

  7. #207
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    Default S&P 500 index still has room to move upwards

    2009 2010 years shows a cyclic bull market within a secular bear market cycle.

    With time the PE Ratio downtrends within a secular Bear market cycle to bottom out at around or under 10.

    We are 10 years in this latest secular bear and the adjusted annualised (Schiller) PE Ratio is standing at 22.6. (31 December 2010)

    At first glance this seems high considering the length of time this current Bear has been in progress...however closer scrutiny shows the PE to be around or slightly lower than it could be for this low inflationary environment. Low inflationary periods keeps the annualised PE higher than normal.


  8. #208
    Speedy Az winner69's Avatar
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    Hoop - just to remind us that secular bear markets last a long time .... and have four recessions during them on the average.

    Just confirms stock selection and a close eye on the charts is the way to go .... as long term the markets not going anywhere for some time

    Be afraid: a new 'Ice Age' is coming

    January 6, 2011


    .There's a bear out there … and he's got a chilling warning for investors, writes Nils Pratley.

    Sharemarkets ended 2010 on an upbeat note and there is an air of optimism among investors and a confidence among economists that a double-dip recession has been avoided. A tough moment, then, to be bearish?

    Not for Albert Edwards, the best known bear in the City of London. He has seen nothing to dent his Ice Age thesis - the term he coined as early as 1996 to describe the relative decline of equities versus bonds.

    He thinks there may still be another Japanese-style ''lost decade'' to endure. ''Big structural bear markets take 19 years on average and have four recessions,'' he says. ''We've had two.''

    Edwards is thus sticking to two eye-catching predictions. Sharemarkets will revisit their March 2009 lows. And, despite the hints in recent months of a return of inflation, gilt yields will fall below 2 per cent (from 3.5 per cent today) as deflationary forces reassert themselves. And for good measure, prepare for a hard landing in China and the crash in commodity prices.

    Ridiculous? Well, remember that Edwards's Ice Age call in 1996 has proved to be a winner: even if you include the sharemarket's dotcom bubble years at the end of the 1990s, equities are still a long way behind bonds since 1996.

    Remember that Edwards's forecasts were rubbished at the time.

    His dismissing of the supposed Asian Miracle in the mid-1990s as ''Noddynomics'' was resented - until the Asian currency crisis of 1998. To Edwards's amusement, correspondents to his employer were still trying to get him sacked in 2000. ''Send this old, sclerotic and dangerous man into pension or … take him to prison,'' said one. ''He's obviously ill and not qualified to be chief strategist of Dresdner Kleinwort. I hope his prophecy will destroy his career for the next thousand years.''

    In fact, the Ice Age prophecy has been the making of his career. He started out in the Bank of England's economics department, spent three years in fund management and then had a 19-year stint at Dresdner Kleinwort until 2007. He and his colleagues (at the French bank Societe Generale) have been the top-rated analysts in the ''global strategy'' category for seven years, despite being too quick out of the blocks with some predictions.

    At times, though, during the great banking bust, Edwards's views have come close to becoming consensus wisdom. The same cannot be said about his view on China.

    ''The biggest risk to market valuations and to sentiment generally is a China hard landing,'' he says. ''China is a much more potentially volatile economy than people think. The Chinese situation is the one that could come out of nowhere because people are not considering it as a serious possibility.''

    But hasn't China been gloriously unaffected by the turmoil in the West, producing growth of 10 per cent or so with little difficulty? Edwards's argument is that ''when you have a good crisis, success can become a curse''. Japan sailed through the 1987 crash. Similarly, the US economy escaped with a shallow recession after the bursting of the dotcom bubble; house prices started to rise as the authorities declared a period of stable inflation and ''great moderation'' to be under way.

    ''Then what happens is that the housing and credit bubble goes out of control,'' argues Edwards. ''You tap your foot on the brakes and the whole thing starts crashing and you can't control it on the downside,'' he says. ''China is exactly the same. It had a very good crisis in 2007, opened the credit floodgates, got a house price bubble going, and they're now trying to tap their foot on the brakes.''

    In Edwards's view, China is a ''freak economy"; its investment-to-GDP ratio is off the scale in terms of size and endurance. ''In development history, Korea is the only one that got close. It then collapsed. China is basing a growth model on the most unstable part of GDP. The Chinese authorities have recognised this and are trying to steer the economy over to consumption - which is fine, but it will take a long time.''

    The danger is that China has produced such strong growth for such a long time that investors assume the process will last indefinitely.

    ''There is too much confidence in the lack of volatility. If you get a zero or a small minus for Chinese GDP, in the great scheme of long-term development it's not a great problem. But it's a bit like investing in Nasdaq stocks in 2000 - there would be a big adjustment in price. There is an investment edifice built on the idea that China is the new growth engine of the world.''

    He points to the OECD's leading indicator of economic activity, which measures factors such as electricity production, freight activity and money supply. In China, it is slowing rapidly, even though commodity prices are as elevated as they were in early 2008 (prices then plunged). Something has to give - and probably sooner than most people assume. The degree of ''pushback'' from clients to his view on China reminds him of the resistance to his bearish calls on the dotcom and east Asian bubbles.

    Closer to home, the Ice Age thesis suggests disappointments for the economy are inevitable. Edwards points to Japan, which enjoyed occasional rallies in share prices without conquering its long decline.

    The lesson is that ''to avoid recession you need to stimulate all the way through the deleveraging phase''. That makes Austerity Britain more vulnerable to recession than the US.

    The middle classes have been ''totally shafted'' by a house-price bubble that created the illusion of prosperity. ''In the US, one in eight are on food stamps. Japan was a cohesive society that shared its pain collectively. That is not how it stacks up in the US, UK, Spain, Greece etc. You have a much more fractious environment to have a lost decade in. The ructions for society will be far worse.''

    So Edwards's answer to the question that obsesses investors at the moment - are we past the worst? - is a resounding no. Or, as his final research piece of 2010 put it: ''I've been doing this job long enough to recognise when the markets are entering a new phase of madness that leaves me scratching my head with bemusement.

    ''The notion that we are back in a sustainable economic recovery is as ludicrous as it was in 2005-07. But investors are back on the dance floor, waltzing their way towards the next, inevitable implosion, [which] yet again they will no doubt claim in retrospect was totally unpredictable!'
    '

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/be-af...105-19g9y.html
    Last edited by winner69; 07-01-2011 at 07:22 AM.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Hoop - just to remind us that secular bear markets last a long time .... and have four recessions during them on the average.

    Just confirms stock selection and a close eye on the charts is the way to go .... as long term the markets not going anywhere for some time......
    Interesting 2011 Outlook by Martin Pring...lots of historical charts.
    The secular bear may has found the Bonds hiding place and time may be up for the cyclic Bull to die by mid 2011

    In PDF format and allow for about 20 min to read.......http://www.pring.com/endofyear2010.htm

  10. #210
    Speedy Az winner69's Avatar
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    Thanks Hoop for those

    Hussman's workings have 3.3% pa return (inc dividends so essentially no price gain) on the S&P over the next 10 years

    As always just remember the market is going nowhere for the next 10 years .... select your stocks well and keep a close eye on those charts.

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