THL - Tourism Holdings

[golden city]

I think some of the people still thinking the 10 years ago China China has changed a lot the way to do business I fact it is more open and high tech than lots western counties now

[golden city]

The rv market is growing very quickly in China with The new generations

[BlackPeter]

I think some of the people still thinking the 10 years ago China China has changed a lot the way to do business I fact it is more open and high tech than lots western counties now

High Tech? - Absolutely. China's universities and research caught up quite rapidly. China produces per year I think 5 times as many science and engineering graduates than the US, and yes, many Chinese companies can well compete with Western companies. Huawei would be only one of them.

Open for business? Not so sure about that. IP theft in China is still ripe. Western companies can't be majority owner of Chinese companies and need to surrender IP if they want to manufacture in China. Corruption is still wide spread and bad for business: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphje...est-and-worst; China is on rank 87 on the corruption hitlist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrup...ceptions_Index) - sure, not as bad as Somalia or Syria (both at the very end, rank 180 and 178), but far away from most Western countries we tend to do business in (NZ rank 2, UK and Germany rank 11 equal, Australia rank 13, US rank 22).

Apart from that - China is run by a government without respect for human rights of its citizens and visitors and they have a "justice system" which has nothing to do with "justice" - but everything with what the strongman and his party want. Get in their way and you are toast. Not ideal conditions to do business ...

[glennj]

I've now ditched the rest of my THL shares. Nearly every "Western" company doing business with mainland China finds all sorts of fish hooks end up detracting from the relationship. THL has been a successful investment for me but it is now time to put the money to work elsewhere as there are too many things making me uneasy.

[percy]

I've now ditched the rest of my THL shares. Nearly every "Western" company doing business with mainland China finds all sorts of fish hooks end up detracting from the relationship. THL has been a successful investment for me but it is now time to put the money to work elsewhere as there are too many things making me uneasy.

With your successful record of investing, I think all of us would be very interested to know where you put you THL money to work.

[glennj]

With your successful record of investing, I think all of us would be very interested to know where you put you THL money to work.

I'm of the opinion that most of the NZ market is fairly or overpriced at the moment. I'm still in the process of spending the proceeds of THL on a lowish liquidity utility type stock but am struggling to get enough at a price acceptable to me. I'm not getting a bargain but I think long term prospects for the stock in question are good and the net divs at my purchase prices are on a par or better than bond yields. That stock may be revealed when I get as many as I want. You seem to do well yourself Percy (I know we both took positions in EBO early on and likely hold other stocks in common)

THL may do well going forward but it is just a comfort thing taking my money out of that one for me. After a while you learn to trust instincts as well as your homework. If selling out is the wrong move in so far that THL is highly successful, I've still done very well for the period the stock was held and will have it re invested in something paying holding costs and with prospects. I had a similar dilemma to now when Nuplex was taken over and had too much cash and didn't think there were bargains about. Most of the money ended up in MFT at a price that hurt at the time but looking back that has gone more than ok!

[Schrodinger]

I've now ditched the rest of my THL shares. Nearly every "Western" company doing business with mainland China finds all sorts of fish hooks end up detracting from the relationship. THL has been a successful investment for me but it is now time to put the money to work elsewhere as there are too many things making me uneasy.

I did the opposite. Lets see what happens in the next few years...

[Schrodinger]

I didn't read it that way. They noted non-capital intensive RV opportunities in China. I took that to mean a potential JV type arrangement where THL provide expertise and run something in China but the capital for this comes from CITIC.

Yep and the vehicles are probably purchased by their JV partner after being imported etc so have entered into China from overseas or locally manufactured. So less capital outlay and a share of the revenues for providing IP. Will have to be careful they dont get moved aside after telling them how to do everything.

More interested in their tourism operations and vehicle rental business though. The number of Chinese tourists forecast for NZ is crazy.

[Balance]

High Tech? - Absolutely. China's universities and research caught up quite rapidly. China produces per year I think 5 times as many science and engineering graduates than the US, and yes, many Chinese companies can well compete with Western companies. Huawei would be only one of them.

Open for business? Not so sure about that. IP theft in China is still ripe. Western companies can't be majority owner of Chinese companies and need to surrender IP if they want to manufacture in China. Corruption is still wide spread and bad for business: https://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphje...est-and-worst; China is on rank 87 on the corruption hitlist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrup...ceptions_Index) - sure, not as bad as Somalia or Syria (both at the very end, rank 180 and 178), but far away from most Western countries we tend to do business in (NZ rank 2, UK and Germany rank 11 equal, Australia rank 13, US rank 22).

Apart from that - China is run by a government without respect for human rights of its citizens and visitors and they have a "justice system" which has nothing to do with "justice" - but everything with what the strongman and his party want. Get in their way and you are toast. Not ideal conditions to do business ...

Indeed - visit China and one feels like NZ is in the dark ages when it comes to high tech - the latest technology being used in everything from AI to robotics to drones to payment systems (WeChat & AliPay) to transport (superfast trains connecting all the main centres made possible by world class communication system - vs poor old Auckland & Wellington still using copper wires) etc etc.

As for business, do not even think of doing business there - unless you are local and connected, you will end up like Fonterra. That's simply a fact which applies in the US too - how many Kiwi companies have succeeded in US?

However, before we throw stones at China for its commercial & regulatory practices, let's put things in perspective - no less than NZ & Australia used to impose exactly the same requirements on foreign companies wanting to access the NZ & Oz markets - cars, electronics, banking, meat exports etc etc etc. I know because I have been in all those industries so please do not try and argue this point. It cost NZ very dearly and we are still paying.

As for human rights and justice system - try this one - https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-dai...se-of-children

Excerpt : "The three girls were aged between three and six when the offending first came to light. The girls are now 12 and 13, with the oldest of the three dying two years ago."

9 long years of ongoing and horrendous child abuse until one died (suicide) before real action is taken.

Feeling proud to be a Kiwi with our justice & child welfare system?

[BlackPeter]

...

As for human rights and justice system - try this one - https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-dai...se-of-children

Excerpt : "The three girls were aged between three and six when the offending first came to light. The girls are now 12 and 13, with the oldest of the three dying two years ago."

9 long years of ongoing and horrendous child abuse until one died (suicide) before real action is taken.

Feeling proud to be a Kiwi with our justice & child welfare system?

Not really the right thread, but I think this needs an answer.

NZ has - as any other country - some rotten apples in their (our) society and (again as everybody else) a somewhat incompetent system to protect children ... and yes, our justice system is far from perfect (though I haven't yet seen the perfect one). I don't argue that - and if you want to discuss that, just create a thread. I assume however there will be little disagreement.

China on the other hand is systematically abusing the human rights of anybody getting into the way of their system and government. They are quite happy to incarcerate and if it is more convenient to kill their opponents.

And I am sure, they have neglected children as well in China ...

Surely - you must be able to see the difference?