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  1. #1981
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    Quote Originally Posted by blobbles View Post
    All challenges, none insurmountable. ICE vehicles are already being replaced with electric, no reason this couldn't also include the harvesters. Plastics have replacements if we really want to use them, a lot of the replacements are made from food industry by-products. Just today I saw a news article from a NZ university who have a plastic alternative under development. So packaging could be another industry we grab by the horns... The oil is most likely a food oil, not one dug out of the ground, so we shouldn't need to worry about that much :-p

    Just think about the emissions profile of turning our current meat and milk production from a carbon pollution industry to a carbon sink industry.

    How is electric anymore environmentally friendly. From raw material to final product, the process scars the earth, uses vast amounts of water and uses massive amounts of highly toxic chemicals and acids, and what is going to happen to the mountain of spent batteries which will degrade over time, polluting the earth. Not to mention Li is explosive when in contact with air or water.

  2. #1982
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    "We" being you and all the wise climate preachers who don't deal anymore theories but just the truth ...? Otherwise - how could questioning your words be the untruth (as you stated in previous posts)?

    Actually - given that you seem to know it all, I'd be interested to see an up to date paper analyzing these effects in the context of climate science. Your chance to provide a link I promise to follow up and comment on .

    Looking at your question - the so called "thermal maximum" of the earth happened to be some 60 million years ago - roughly 6 degrees warmer than today and life was pretty thriving around this period, thanks for asking.

    Attachment 9640

    So that (current temperature plus 6 degrees) seems to be the maximum set on our earth thermostat. At current the temperature is still close to the minimum - why would you think that all the feedback loops should already now work with full power to keep the system around its minimum? Wouldn't make any sense ...
    You want me to provide you with a scientific study which explains why the creation of fossil fuels (a process which takes millions of years) is irrelevant in the face of the past hundred years of AGW? Nobody would do such a study because it is absolutely pointless for obvious reasons. The timescales involved are incompatible.

    I don't know it all, but I clearly have knowledge which others lack. They certainly have knowledge which I lack. Thats why we have forums with multiple subjects, to share information. You should know since you are "always learning ...".

    We covered this already. Yes, it has been hotter in the past. But at that stage we didn't have a civilisation which has flourished due to a stable climate. People look at this stuff all the time, see here and here. Notice in your picture it has "Climate Optimum?" text which is probably about right for human civilisation to flourish. Note how we are beyond that now. And you have completely mis-characterised us being "close to the minimum".

  3. #1983
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltical View Post
    How is electric anymore environmentally friendly. From raw material to final product, the process scars the earth, uses vast amounts of water and uses massive amounts of highly toxic chemicals and acids, and what is going to happen to the mountain of spent batteries which will degrade over time, polluting the earth. Not to mention Li is explosive when in contact with air or water.
    It is, partly, just shifting the problem. You are right. However there are 2 things here:

    1. Total electric car lifecycle is still far less polluting than an ICE engine based vehicle. I encourage you to look this up, there are numerous studies showing this. In a place like NZ where we have potential to generate all our electricity from renewables, its a dumb thing for us not to do.
    2. We are just at the start of figuring out battery storage. Its a 200 year old industry but research into the area is exploding as we search for better alternatives. For instance with graphene batteries coming online, we may not have to "scour the earth" and produce highly toxic batteries. Seriously look this up, its a great area ripe for investment.

  4. #1984
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    Granted
    but I'd say graphene batteries are years away from entering the market, look how long it has even taken to change to electric vehicles, then companies have already invested in Li batteries and wont want to lose out. I do think graphene will revolutionize the world, not just in batteries. I'm all for environmentally friendly solutions, I just think we need to look well ahead not just 5-10 yrs down the track, but this is hard when you are up against massive companies.

    Also it is not just the batteries, the vehicles consist of all types of different metals, rare earth elements that go into magnets for electric motors, wind turbines etc

    The other problem is humans themselves, as you state we have flourished on this earth, however this is not sustainable for the planet, we will eventually reach peak human and unfortunately (for humans) the planet will need to reset its self, whether we come back who knows
    Last edited by meltical; 20-04-2018 at 05:22 PM.

  5. #1985
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    Quote Originally Posted by blobbles View Post
    You want me to provide you with a scientific study which explains why the creation of fossil fuels (a process which takes millions of years) is irrelevant in the face of the past hundred years of AGW? Nobody would do such a study because it is absolutely pointless for obvious reasons. The timescales involved are incompatible.
    Confused. You clearly stated that you did consider as well the increased plant activity at higher CO2 levels as well as the increased cloud coverage due to higher temperatures when you and your buddies (you said "we") made up all your truths about the climate. And now when you get an opportunity to show us the data, you say you didn't.

    Ah - get it - you are working with "alternative facts" - are you ?



    Quote Originally Posted by blobbles View Post
    ... And you have completely mis-characterised us being "close to the minimum".
    I have not. If we take the full span, than it is 6 degrees up (if we stay in the last 100 Million years) and only 2 degrees (for several quite short periods) down. This is the lowest quartile, which is "close to the minimum".

    Quote Originally Posted by blobbles View Post
    Notice in your picture it has "Climate Optimum?" text which is probably about right for human civilisation to flourish
    Well - yes, the chart comes from one of your buddies web pages (you know, the big "we" who knows the truth about the climate) ... i.e. I wouldn't worry too much about their statements, particularly if they add a question mark like (Optimum temperature?) ... Used the picture just to demonstrate the temperature range.
    Last edited by BlackPeter; 20-04-2018 at 06:06 PM. Reason: added third part
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  6. #1986
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    Quote Originally Posted by meltical View Post
    Granted
    but I'd say graphene batteries are years away from entering the market, look how long it has even taken to change to electric vehicles, then companies have already invested in Li batteries and wont want to lose out. I do think graphene will revolutionize the world, not just in batteries. I'm all for environmentally friendly solutions, I just think we need to look well ahead not just 5-10 yrs down the track, but this is hard when you

    Also it is not just the batteries, the vehicles consist of all types of different metals, rare earth elements that go into magnets for electric motors, wind turbines etc

    The other problem is humans themselves, as you state we have flourished on this earth, however this is not sustainable for the planet, we will eventually reach peak human and unfortunately (for humans) the planet will need to reset its self, whether we come back who knows
    Not wrong there numbers wise, maybe Gaia will react and eliminate half the population with a natural disaster.
    Toyota and others are working on hydrogen ICE cars, that would really be a game changer.

  7. #1987
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    Quote Originally Posted by blobbles View Post
    We covered this already. Yes, it has been hotter in the past. But at that stage we didn't have a civilisation which has flourished due to a stable climate. People look at this stuff all the time, see here and here.
    Oh dear, nearly would have overseen your provided links. Interesting that NASA under Trump is still allowed to talk about climate change - either they didn't get the message or more likely - this is fake news? The other web page reminds me in outlay pictures and depth to the publications of the Jehova's witnesses. Is this really the stuff where you get your "truth" from? No wonder you think you own the truth ...

    Both links talk about ancient civilizations which collapsed due to climate change (well, drought). Nothing new - read "Collapse" from Jared Diamond, you will like it (and actually - he is a good author and well researched).

    However - there have been in history many reasons for civilizations to collapse - overuse of resources (Easter Island), getting soft and losing discipline (Greece), too much lead in the plumbing (Rome), and with our current western civilization I suppose we are close to the next collapse, but it won't be due to global warming.

    One thing you and your truth-buddies seem to oversee is that while the recent development of civilizations was started by the agricultural revolution (move from hunter gatherer to farmer), the recent exponential increase of civilization is due to humans finding much better ways to communicate with each other and exchange ideas.

    Silicon Valley is not dependent on the South Californian agriculture and nor is Dubai living of local produce (well, not much ;

    Sure - 5000 years ago a civilization was kaput when the local water supply moved on. Today we do have the full globe, and there is no reason to assume that earth will be less fertile or humid when temperatures (and humidty) go up. Huge potential to grow corn, wheat and vegetables in Siberia, Greenland, Alaska and Northern Scandinavia when temperatures go up just a wee bit. No need to worry - and certainly not to scaremonger others.
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    Sunfed meats Thanks blobbles, i see two supermarkets here stock Sunfed chicken, will try some out.I know there is new sustainable red meat being worked on too atm as well as milk without the pollution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Not wrong there numbers wise, maybe Gaia will react and eliminate half the population with a natural disaster.
    Toyota and others are working on hydrogen ICE cars, that would really be a game changer.
    Yip a few natural disasters would be a blessing in disguise

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    here is a link and picture to the base ingredients of the "new" vege steaks and vege milk that will save the world.
    the picture is just one of 1000s of vege meat,milk,food,and everything else farms coming online because greenies hate oil.
    in the meantime 700,000,000 Indians dont use a toilet, they go "freedom camping" everyday.
    then there is the rest of the world with substandard waste treatment............ where does it all go?
    some would say not into the oceans and not being a part of sea level rise.
    simple fact is there are too many people.
    these mega 'vege meat' farms will be worse for the environment than oil exploration in the not too distant future.
    at least we all have different views, and for NZ, taxing kiwis for others pollution is the current in thing to do.
    https://www.pakissan.com/2018/01/17/...ction-outlook/

  11. #1991
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Sunfed meats Thanks blobbles, i see two supermarkets here stock Sunfed chicken, will try some out.I know there is new sustainable red meat being worked on too atm as well as milk without the pollution.
    Yep, all industries which we should be at the forefront of as a large food exporting nation who should be concentrating on niche markets and quality products. It amazes me that we don't see massive investment in this already as its clearly the way the world will head as agriculture is bought into climate agreements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neopoleII View Post
    here is a link and picture to the base ingredients of the "new" vege steaks and vege milk that will save the world.
    the picture is just one of 1000s of vege meat,milk,food,and everything else farms coming online because greenies hate oil.
    in the meantime 700,000,000 Indians dont use a toilet, they go "freedom camping" everyday.
    then there is the rest of the world with substandard waste treatment............ where does it all go?
    some would say not into the oceans and not being a part of sea level rise.
    simple fact is there are too many people.
    these mega 'vege meat' farms will be worse for the environment than oil exploration in the not too distant future.
    at least we all have different views, and for NZ, taxing kiwis for others pollution is the current in thing to do.
    https://www.pakissan.com/2018/01/17/...ction-outlook/
    If you take the land area of NZ in sq meters and divide the figure by the worlds population you end up with 35 sq m available for every individual man woman and child in the world without putting them in highrises.
    With an average family of say 4 combining it would be enough for a decent sized house at 140sq m each.
    Just for a bit of size and context in the too many people conversation.

  13. #1993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minerbarejet View Post
    If you take the land area of NZ in sq meters and divide the figure by the worlds population you end up with 35 sq m available for every individual man woman and child in the world without putting them in highrises.
    With an average family of say 4 combining it would be enough for a decent sized house at 140sq m each.
    Just for a bit of size and context in the too many people conversation.
    Just don't allocate me my 35 sq m somewhere in the Southern Alps, please!


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    Quote Originally Posted by macduffy View Post
    Just don't allocate me my 35 sq m somewhere in the Southern Alps, please!

    We could always use Manitoba in Canada which is a lot flatter and 2.4 times the size of NZ. You could get about 18 billion in there and thats only one small part of Canada.
    Imagine True Dough handling all that.

  15. #1995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minerbarejet View Post
    If you take the land area of NZ in sq meters and divide the figure by the worlds population you end up with 35 sq m available for every individual man woman and child in the world without putting them in highrises.
    With an average family of say 4 combining it would be enough for a decent sized house at 140sq m each.
    Just for a bit of size and context in the too many people conversation.
    I don't think is about humans per sqm but rather humans per how much needs/infrastructure/commodities etc they use throughout their life

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