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Member
Just to make sure my thinking is on the right track ill put up two scenarios
On April 1 I purchase and on March 20 I sell: (all ASX companies)
100 BHP @ $25 and sell at $35 = $1000 profit (Aussie Exempt Share)
500 PDN @ $2.00 and sell at $4.00 = $1000 profit (Aussie Exempt Share)
13,333 BOW @ .15c and sell at .80c = $8,666 profit (Non exempt company)
Initial value for all companies = $5,500
Value at sale date = $16,166
Profit from sale by end of year = $10,666
Scenario 1 = revenue account in my own name
Under this scenario my tax is calculated as - Due to being under the $50,000 threshold and having two companies on the exempt list, my tax liability is
5% on the $8,666 profit from BOW
=$433 tax
The rest does not apply under FIF and I only pay tax on dividends? or is the rest of my income taxable under general income?
Scenario 2 = Under trading company
Under this scenario I end up paying 30% on the entire $10,666? (assuming no losses/expenses to offset)
30% on the $10,666
= $3199 tax
I have a feeling I'm not quite understanding it and am just getting my self confused after reading to many different information sources. The examples on IRD website kind of help, but I couldn't find one that fully fitted my situation so was going off how I interpreted the law.
Last edited by marknz88; 10-03-2009 at 08:17 PM.
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 Originally Posted by marknz88
Hi all!
I'm interested in setting up a company to separate my capital and revenue accounts for my shares. I have had a read through this thread http://www.sharetrader.co.nz/showthread.php?t=6220 and IRD's/Companies Offices website, although some of the information is quite confusing.
Currently I have a capital account with ASB securities which I will keep for my "longer term holdings". In around 6 months time I am looking to start day trading to supplement my current PT income as I believe I can earn more money putting my time into equities than I do standing around working retail for 9 hours.
I will be going to see my parents company accountant next week to discuss this process further and to work out what he believes will be in my best interest, however I would like some initial clarification and understanding before I meet with him (looks at shasta/any other accountants out there  )
Obviously I want to limit my tax exposure as much as possible so a company structure would be the best solution seeing as these trading shares would be held on "revenue"
Tax should be the very LAST reason to set up a company!
If your income is likely to be under $70k (2009 Tax year), then you shouldn't worry about a company setup, you wont save anything!
The 1 April 2009 tax cuts will reduce the marginal rate down a bit further too.
Under the old system....
$60k income for an individual paid $14,670 tax
$60k income for a company paid $18,000 tax (@ 30% on EVERY $)
Theres a benefit of $3,330 to NOT be a company.
My main questions are:
1. Am I better to setup a LAQC or a non LAQC (qualifying company? or normal company?)?
See above
From my understanding, by setting up a LAQC I am able to offset any losses I make against any current profit I have made? instead of having to wait for future profit to offset the loses against?
Yes, but as a "trader" you don't need a company to claim expenses against income.
2. So once I have setup a LAQC/Company I will be paying 30% on any profit I make in comparison to 5% FIF tax that I pay on any companies that aren't included in the ASX300/Australian Exempt List (currently half my companies are included in the exempt list and the other half aren't)
The exempt go wider than you think, the entire ALL Ord's are exempt, so long as the company is NOT overseas registered.
3. What would be the best way to pay myself as director/sole shareholder an income out of my company? weekly wages that would attract PAYE? monthly dividends? salary?
If you are looking for income from your investments why not invest in dividend paying companies?
I'm happy to help you should you wish to go thru with the company setup, but you would be best to rethink this strategy for now...
4. By having a company I am able offset any income by expenses such as computers/software/trade fee's effectively causing me to have a smaller tax liability?
You can claim these as an individual if you trade, incl brokerage!
So for example I spend $5,000 on assets to setup my trading system during the year, and I make $15 profit from shares, my tax liability would be 30% of $10,000?
Thats pretty simple & there are ways around that, again i believe you shoudl re-think the strategy, until such time that your personal income is well over the top tax rate threshold.
Any advice on the above would be greatly appreciated as would other users current company setups/ways the work around having differing share accounts.
Feel free to ask more questions 
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And don’t forget in a company structure you have responsibilities as a director – the financial accounting can be quite onerous if you don’t have the turnover and profit.
If you are thinking of setting up a company to off-set losses i’d suggest there’s a big red warning flag right there.
The one thing I love about tax is you only pay it when you make a profit.
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Originally Posted by marknz88
Just to make sure my thinking is on the right track ill put up two scenarios
On April 1 I purchase and on March 20 I sell: (all ASX companies)
100 BHP @ $25 and sell at $35 = $1000 profit (Aussie Exempt Share)
500 PDN @ $2.00 and sell at $4.00 = $1000 profit (Aussie Exempt Share)
13,333 BOW @ .15c and sell at .80c = $8,666 profit (Non exempt company)
Initial value for all companies = $5,500
Value at sale date = $16,166
Profit from sale by end of year = $10,666
Scenario 1 = revenue account in my own name
Under this scenario my tax is calculated as - Due to being under the $50,000 threshold and having two companies on the exempt list, my tax liability is
5% on the $8,666 profit from BOW
=$433 tax
The rest does not apply under FIF and I only pay tax on dividends? or is the rest of my income taxable under general income?
If you are "trading" then all profits are subject to tax! (Lets not get too far ahead of yourself here, you will only confuse the issue & overload yourself with info!)
There are also "Forex" issues if you're a NZ taxpayer , a company as a "non natural person" must include unrealised gains/losses...
An individual has the benefit of being a "cash basis holder" & therefore no accruals are required, only realised gains/losses get calculated.
Scenario 2 = Under trading company
Under this scenario I end up paying 30% on the entire $10,666? (assuming no losses/expenses to offset)
30% on the $10,666
= $3199 tax
I have a feeling I'm not quite understanding it and am just getting my self confused after reading to many different information sources. The examples on IRD website kind of help, but I couldn't find one that fully fitted my situation so was going off how I interpreted the law.
I don't believe your interests are best served under a company structure, particularly if you don't fully understand the issues involved.
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Member
Thanks for the quick reply shasta!!
Im sorry if these questions are silly or quite obvious, I'm still trying to get my head around these requirements as this will be the first year I need to disclose share purchases for tax and since im still young and can see my self trading shares for a very long time, its good to get it right from the start 
Ok so were to from here for me...
Yes my total income will most definitely be under $70,000 for the 2009 tax year!
So how do I go offsetting expenses such as computer equip, trading software and trading fee's? do i just offset it before I declare on the tax form how much profit I made for the year?
When you say the company is not overseas registered, does that include companies that are dually listed? i.e. companies that are initially traded in say Germany, but also trade on the ASX are classified as overseas registered?, but companies that are initially listed on the ASX, have company HQ in Aus etc but then later are listed/traded on say the TSX, these companies are still what would be classified as Australian registered?
I am looking for income from shares yes, how ever the amount I have to invest is not huge (initially looking at around 7.5k AUD to trade with).
My plan was to take $5k and actively invest it daily. Look to make around 5-8% gains daily (either in a single trade, or multiple trades) which would equate to ~$300AUD a day income (dependent on number of trades).
Now I know this will be a lot harder than it sounds, or else everybody would be doing it, but I believe that with the right trading plan and rules, and by sticking to them I will be able to do all right (as long as I make $120+AUD a day for 9 hours work I will be much better off than working a 9hr day on $13.5 an hour). Plus Ive got age on my side and what better time to attempt trading than while still at uni (currently have 2 and a half years to go with my accounting and infosys degree, meeting NZICA requirements. Is there hope for me as an accountant out there if I have trouble with this kind of thing :S?)
If I was to invest that 7.5k into dividend paying shares, my likely yield well being much higher than investing it in term deposits, but it wouldn't be able to give me my estimated daily income of ~$300AUD I hope to make trading.
Once I get a much larger investment pool to play with, I will then look to invest in long term dividend plays as we all know you cant make huge returns year in and year out on the stock market!
At the moment the only way I can see to generate income is from "day trading" as opposed to a buy and hold strategy.
Also I have this vision of me being able to use trading as a back up in life if things don't play out/as supplement income. Might as well learn my lesson now rather than later that there is no real quick or easy way to make a buck in this world ^_^
edit//
in reply to your 2nd reply shasta
if my first example was under a capital account, then would how I worked it out apply to that? or am I still way off the mark?
"Investments in Australian-resident companies listed on an approved index
of the Australian Stock Exchange, such as the All Ordinaries index (the
500 largest listed companies), are exempt from the foreign investment
fund rules. The general income tax rules will continue to apply to these
Australian investments: that is, taxable only on dividends if the shares are
held on capital account and on dividends and realised share gains if the
shares are held on revenue account."
Ok so lets try this again. Currently I hold shares under a capital account. Any AORD company that I hold are exempt from fif rules. So the only tax I pay on these would be on dividends? any capital gain I make after I sell isn't taxable (that cant be right can it?)
Under my new revenue account, dividends and any realized gains are taxable. My question is at what rate is it taxable? general income tax rate?
I thought I had some understanding before delving into the company route, but now it just seems I have been under the wrong impressions this whole time. Hopefully the accountant will advise me to stay clear of a company structure then and explain the tax position in a much simpler form than the IRD website.
Last edited by marknz88; 10-03-2009 at 09:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by marknz88
Thanks for the quick reply shasta!!
Im sorry if these questions are silly or quite obvious, I'm still trying to get my head around these requirements as this will be the first year I need to disclose share purchases for tax and since im still young and can see my self trading shares for a very long time, its good to get it right from the start
There are no silly questions, just perhaps silly actions - at least you asked the questions BEFOREHAND.
Good on you, & Sharetrader is a friendly forum, we do help one another
Ok so were to from here for me...
Yes my total income will most definitely be under $70,000 for the 2009 tax year!
So how do I go offsetting expenses such as computer equip, trading software and trading fee's? do i just offset it before I declare on the tax form how much profit I made for the year?
Say out loud 3 times, "I am a trader, I am a trader, I am a trader" 
From the 1st April document everythign you do in a spreadsheet, all your costs etc & file the documents in a binder, much cheaper than a company setup!
When you say the company is not overseas registered, does that include companies that are dually listed? i.e. companies that are initially traded in say Germany, but also trade on the ASX are classified as overseas registered?, but companies that are initially listed on the ASX, have company HQ in Aus etc but then later are listed/traded on say the TSX, these companies are still what would be classified as Australian registered?
It's where the companies are registered, ie OSH is an example of an overseas company (registered in PNG)
I am looking for income from shares yes, how ever the amount I have to invest is not huge (initially looking at around 7.5k AUD to trade with).
My plan was to take $5k and actively invest it daily. Look to make around 5-8% gains daily (either in a single trade, or multiple trades) which would equate to ~$300AUD a day income (dependent on number of trades).
Anyone who can regularly earn 5-8% a day is a living genuis & it's much harder than you think to achieve (annualise those results & its a phenominal result!), remember it is still a BEAR market & those grizzlies like to wipe out profits, most traders lose there capital & cannot sustain losses for very long, especially with limited capital.
Now I know this will be a lot harder than it sounds, or else everybody would be doing it, but I believe that with the right trading plan and rules, and by sticking to them I will be able to do all right (as long as I make $120+AUD a day for 9 hours work I will be much better off than working a 9hr day on $13.5 an hour). Plus Ive got age on my side and what better time to attempt trading than while still at uni (currently have 2 and a half years to go with my accounting and infosys degree, meeting NZICA requirements. Is there hope for me as an accountant out there if I have trouble with this kind of thing :S?)
Discipline & common sense will do better than most degrees in the markets.
To be perfectly honest, you would be better off with a more conservatve approach, you are talking about "trading all your capital" to try & live off!
If I was to invest that 7.5k into dividend paying shares, my likely yield well being much higher than investing it in term deposits, wouldn't be able to give me my estimated daily income of ~$300AUD I hope to make trading.
Once I get a much larger investment pool to play with, I will then look to invest in long term dividend plays as we all know you cant make huge returns year in and year out on the stock market!
At the moment the only way I can see to generate income is from "day trading" as opposed to a buy and hold strategy.
Also I have this vision of me being able to use trading as a back up in life if things don't play out/as supplement income. Might as well learn my lesson now rather than later that there is no real quick or easy way to make a buck in this world ^_^
There are NO easy ways to make a living trading, & there are no short cuts, your capital base is too low to really contemplate doing so.
Sorry, but you are really up against it, seasoned pro's are largely out of the market, or are trading using strict TA parameters (like Phaedrus)
I've been investing in shares seriously for well over 5 years now, & im out of the market at present, & i do not have what it takes to day trade.
That's not to say you can't, but i must urge you to re-think your strategy!
For 2009 i'm looking at cashed up companies that can weather the financial storm...
If you really, really want a piece of the action, you could try using a margin lending a/c & leverage that way.
Perhaps start with $A2-3k & leave the rest to earn some interest & add to it when you can?
I wouldn't want you to lose what you can't afford!
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Originally Posted by marknz88
Thanks for the quick reply shasta!!
Im sorry if these questions are silly or quite obvious, I'm still trying to get my head around these requirements as this will be the first year I need to disclose share purchases for tax and since im still young and can see my self trading shares for a very long time, its good to get it right from the start
Ok so were to from here for me...
Yes my total income will most definitely be under $70,000 for the 2009 tax year!
So how do I go offsetting expenses such as computer equip, trading software and trading fee's? do i just offset it before I declare on the tax form how much profit I made for the year?
When you say the company is not overseas registered, does that include companies that are dually listed? i.e. companies that are initially traded in say Germany, but also trade on the ASX are classified as overseas registered?, but companies that are initially listed on the ASX, have company HQ in Aus etc but then later are listed/traded on say the TSX, these companies are still what would be classified as Australian registered?
I am looking for income from shares yes, how ever the amount I have to invest is not huge (initially looking at around 7.5k AUD to trade with).
My plan was to take $5k and actively invest it daily. Look to make around 5-8% gains daily (either in a single trade, or multiple trades) which would equate to ~$300AUD a day income (dependent on number of trades).
Now I know this will be a lot harder than it sounds, or else everybody would be doing it, but I believe that with the right trading plan and rules, and by sticking to them I will be able to do all right (as long as I make $120+AUD a day for 9 hours work I will be much better off than working a 9hr day on $13.5 an hour). Plus Ive got age on my side and what better time to attempt trading than while still at uni (currently have 2 and a half years to go with my accounting and infosys degree, meeting NZICA requirements. Is there hope for me as an accountant out there if I have trouble with this kind of thing :S?)
If I was to invest that 7.5k into dividend paying shares, my likely yield well being much higher than investing it in term deposits, but it wouldn't be able to give me my estimated daily income of ~$300AUD I hope to make trading.
Once I get a much larger investment pool to play with, I will then look to invest in long term dividend plays as we all know you cant make huge returns year in and year out on the stock market!
At the moment the only way I can see to generate income is from "day trading" as opposed to a buy and hold strategy.
Also I have this vision of me being able to use trading as a back up in life if things don't play out/as supplement income. Might as well learn my lesson now rather than later that there is no real quick or easy way to make a buck in this world ^_^
edit//
in reply to your 2nd reply shasta
if my first example was under a capital account, then would how I worked it out apply to that? or am I still way off the mark?
Investments held under Capital A/c are not taxable, just the dividends, (Note, you will have FX issues as well), & remember franking credits in Australian don't count in NZ. (Assuming FIF doesn't apply)
"Investments in Australian-resident companies listed on an approved index
of the Australian Stock Exchange, such as the All Ordinaries index (the
500 largest listed companies), are exempt from the foreign investment
fund rules. The general income tax rules will continue to apply to these
Australian investments: that is, taxable only on dividends if the shares are
held on capital account and on dividends and realised share gains if the
shares are held on revenue account."
Ok so lets try this again. Currently I hold shares under a capital account. Any AORD company that I hold are exempt from fif rules. So the only tax I pay on these would be on dividends? any capital gain I make after I sell isn't taxable (that cant be right can it?)
Yes it is
Under my new revenue account, dividends and any realized gains are taxable. My question is at what rate is it taxable? general income tax rate?
At your "marginal tax rate", so say ~20% up to $40k (rough figures)
I thought I had some understanding before delving into the company route, but now it just seems I have been under the wrong impressions this whole time. Hopefully the accountant will advise me to stay clear of a company structure then and explain the tax position in a much simpler form than the IRD website.
I don't believe you need a company at this stage, why complicate things?
You are getting a tax benefit by NOT forming a company...
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Having got ourselves into a debt-induced economic crisis, the only permanent way out is to reduce the debt – either directly by abolishing large slabs of it, or indirectly by inflating it away.
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Member
Originally Posted by shasta
There are NO easy ways to make a living trading, & there are no short cuts, your capital base is too low to really contemplate doing so.
Sorry, but you are really up against it, seasoned pro's are largely out of the market, or are trading using strict TA parameters (like Phaedrus)
I've been investing in shares seriously for well over 5 years now, & im out of the market at present, & i do not have what it takes to day trade.
That's not to say you can't, but i must urge you to re-think your strategy!
For 2009 i'm looking at cashed up companies that can weather the financial storm...
If you really, really want a piece of the action, you could try using a margin lending a/c & leverage that way.
Perhaps start with $A2-3k & leave the rest to earn some interest & add to it when you can?
I wouldn't want you to lose what you can't afford!
Thanks for all your help shasta and minimoke!
I now have a much better understanding of how the tax side of things works after clearing out all my wrong understandings.
I will leave the whole company structure out of the equation until I start earning over the $70k threshold, in which case I will then re evaluate if need be.
I guess you could say I was getting stuck in a pipe dream BUT
I do definitely want to give day trading a go. I will be easing my way into it. (currently as I am still building my capital base I watch the markets and paper trade my system with some good results on paper) I understand the need for money management and will be paying strong attention to this.
I attempt to use TA (I wouldnt classify my self as an absolute beginner, I have had some success so far using TA but am learning more and more every day I watch the markets but not at an intermediate level yet either)
Margin lending is something I don't want to get into ever really. Bull market or no bull market.
I currently have $4k in the markets. This is now worth only $2200 roughly. I learned my lesson about stop losses/money preservation and that any profit is a profit the hard way you could say like everybody else. I plan to just pop these stocks in the bottom draw for when the recovery occurs.
For the time being I will keep watching and learning and take into consideration your wisdom shasta as you have been doing this much longer than I have.
If I have any future questions I wont hesitate to ask them haha
Thanks again!
Last edited by marknz88; 10-03-2009 at 10:08 PM.
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