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  1. #41
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    Whats the big deal ? Doesn't matter if houses are affordable or no. If they are unaffordable then people will not buy houses and the price will come down. It can not last forever that the young can't buy houses...

  2. #42
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    MM

    I think you miss the point - is that house in Sandringham 15 year later worth nearly 3.5 times more when incomes have only gone up 40% in that same period. If I was buying now on the same relative wages I would be contemplating living a tiny two bedroom unit in Papakura. If I chose to do that if would be a significant tradeoff to my lifestyle. The argument was about the affordability of house in general not whether someone could afford a shoebox in the booeys. You will always be able to find a house you can afford to buy (Mataura, Papakura) if you look hard enough but to what ends do you want to sacrifice life - that is the point of having an affordability index.

    Anyway, I doubt either of us will change the others mind. Debate is good. It is an important topic for most NZers given most of us have most of their life's saving tied up in it.
    Last edited by Ptolemy; 18-09-2009 at 03:31 PM.

  3. #43
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    well,
    after reading a weeks worth of heated debate about how houses are affordable for those that are willing to give up smoking, stop breeding, and live in low class areas for their first home, i read 2 articals today about housing afordabiltiy and its affect on society.

    from those who cash in on cap gains, to those that cant get on the ladder........ even if they give up smoking.
    what some people dont realise is, housing used to be affordable for almost all folks a generation ago.
    now its for the skilled worker or double income family only.
    so where does that place the multitude of folks who work in a factory or shop etc.
    100's of thousands of kiwis earn less than $18 an hour, and these folk (without the help of taxpayer benifits) cant afford to buy a house or even rent it without that help.
    sooner or later......... im guessing sooner now, .... going by these articals, low income earners will be able to buy houses in low class suburbs that the property investor /speculators have snapped up with tax deductable/ depreciable loans to collect government funded housing suppliments from low income workers.
    some sort of ring fencing or cgt will come into effect in the near term future, and the result is that speculators will walk away from these cash cows and therefore these properties will reduce in price to be affordable to those that live and work in the factory zones where these houses are.

    i am sick to death of my taxes going to landlords via housing suppliments, and these landlords collecting tax loses and "depreciation" and then selling for cap gains and the ird is sitting on its thumbs.

    if......... (which wont happen).... there was no housing suppliments, a house in mangere east or otara, would not be worth what they are today, and the low incomers could then afford to own.
    imho, working for families and housing suppliments have created a class of property millionaires at the expence of low incomers and tax payers.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=10598694
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/property/n...ectid=10598551

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by neopoleII View Post
    what some people dont realise is, housing used to be affordable for almost all folks a generation ago.
    And a genration ago you couldn't buy a car unless you held foreign currency and knew the right people. Women knew their place was in the home. TV was for the wealthy and we had liscencing fees. We had Nordmeyers "Black Budget" and the Beatles were just becoming known (which will be intersting for the new digital generation of Beatles fans). The Ranfuly Shield is what counted and you needed a building to house a computer.

    The world moves on: if we want to hark back to the past we have to take the good with the bad. Why go back a generation - what about a few generations and to the 1930's when we saw the first State Houses being built for those on low to moderate incomes or do you want to go back to the 1900's with the introduction of workers housing.

    Back then there was no god given right to own your own home and those that did had very humble abodes. Nor is there any god given right today - times change and move on. Somethings become more affordable and some don't. But the fact remains - if a person wants to buy a house and is prepared to make the sacrifices then it can be done.

  5. #45
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    Minimoke try buying a house on the minimum wage & see how you cope unless you are using the NZ minimum wage to build a Mud Hut in Ethiopia credit is the bain of life it pushes prices up far faster than wages. And how many businesses were moaning about the increase in the minimum wage. But then again they think all their customers are earning Mega Bucks & living in the times of the Black budget was a lot better for a lot of people than now. Take the elderly person that needs care. They would be a lot better off shooting a politician & spending there last years in jail than an aged care facility. Plus they would get better medical care as well in jail.
    Last edited by POSSUM THE CAT; 22-09-2009 at 06:36 PM. Reason: correct grammar
    Possum The Cat

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by POSSUM THE CAT View Post
    Minimoke try buying a house on the minimum wage & see how you cope
    It has never been a right of anyone to own their own home. The challenge of owning a home has always been that - and the "Minimum Wagers"(as a generalisation) have always been locked out of home ownership - thats why we had state houses and Workers Housing in the past and why we have Working For Families and Accomodation Supplements now.

    I'd go far as saying that owning a home is something a minimun wager should most definitly not aspire to (especially an "average" home) - they should firstly aspire to gain skills and education that lifts their wage rate. A Minimum Wager could concievably afford their own home (can't see it myself - but there are probably opportunites locally in Bromley or Aranui) but then they have to pay the rates, insurance and property upkeep - something their budget probably won't allow.

    "Renters" are not second class citizens. If people cannot afford to own a home then they should not be looked down on if they are renting. There are valid arguments for renting over home ownership so those with aspirations can still make a home in a rental and do very well out of it.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by neopoleII View Post
    i am sick to death of my taxes going to landlords via housing suppliments, and these landlords collecting tax loses and "depreciation" and then selling for cap gains and the ird is sitting on its thumbs.

    if......... (which wont happen).... there was no housing suppliments, a house in mangere east or otara, would not be worth what they are today, and the low incomers could then afford to own.
    imho, working for families and housing suppliments have created a class of property millionaires at the expence of low incomers and tax payers.
    But not sick at all to see them go to those (barring genuine cases) who don't wish to get off their bums and earn an honest wage. It is these "benefit is birthright" people who make a mockery of the benefit system which was a noble socialistic idea of providing social security to people who deserved it. Where community cared and provided a helping hand. Now that helping hand has become "a right", and has a consequence for those who genuinely deserve help (like superannuitants to name just one demographic).

    It is not just accomodation supplement that gets paid out of tax dollars, but also the cost to feed their whole families, clothe them, provide (free) electricity, and phones, subsidised medical care and medication, free education, social amenities, even free facilities in jail if some of them end in jail. The landlord has to chase the tenants for rent, pay the bill for water and damages, spend money to find their wherabouts when they do runners, pay court costs, get orders and still end up with a payment of $5 a week for life, if he is lucky.

    Contrast this with how much Housing NZ spends each year just on repairs of its housing stock. Who pays? the taxpayer. Not all landlords have taken into account their risks professionally, and not all beneficiary tenants are bad. But you only need one to blow your retirement, beneficiary or non-beneficiary. One must beware what one wishes for, lest one get it. landlords provide a vital social service, and I for one, am grateful.

  8. #48
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    people who abuse the benifit system should be barred from recieving one.
    people who abuse or cheat landlords should also be barred or punished and registered.

    another problem is that the govt doesnt take alot of action against those who cheat the system, whether benifit fraud or abuse or investment property speculation.

    i would be happy for a fairer system both ways which would leave room for the genuine investor landlord and an opertunity for low incomers (who do try to save) to get a home.
    but as it stands low class properties are in demand from high income earners for the govt funded rents and cap gains and tax deferments.

  9. #49
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    fair point. Not sure if demand for economic end stock is solely for renters though. Also, at the moment lending seems tight for property investors...

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by neopoleII View Post
    well,
    after reading a weeks worth of heated debate about how houses are affordable for those that are willing to give up smoking, stop breeding, and live in low class areas for their first home, i read 2 articals today about housing afordabiltiy and its affect on society.
    Don't take my word for it - how about Massey University researchers. In todays news:
    "Homes became more affordable in the three months to August 31 mostly because of low interest rates, according to the Massey University Home Affordability report.

    Home affordability improved by 2.3 percent in the quarter, which was less than the 8.5 percent improvement between February and May.

    Home affordability improved 17 percent on an annual basis."

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