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Thread: Gold

  1. #5161
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    Last Year:

    DJIA +17%
    DJT + 28%
    CAC +19%
    XJO +18%
    N225 +53%
    FTSE +13%
    HSI +10%
    STI +6%
    Shanghai Comp -2.5%
    Auckland Property +14%
    ------------------------------
    Gold -19%
    SLV -28%
    SLW -24%
    XGD -54%
    GDXJ -50%
    GDX -41%
    HUI -45%

    As you can see EZ, the place NOT to be is in Asia (except Japan) and gold and silver. Goldbugs will tell you China is going to rule the World, but the real place to be recently is the USA, the epitomy of all that is fraudulent and corrupt according to the bugs, so it'll be a double whammy for them because they won't own any US assets.
    Last edited by Skol; 11-08-2013 at 08:17 PM.

  2. #5162
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    But I still have to come back to the liquidity graph Skol. Here is a different version of it, plotting total US liquidity against the gold price. It includes the money coming in from overseas, buying US treasuries, or bonds. An incredibly interesting graph, especially when you look at the gold price diving off the trendline. What caused it to do that? (I have a few ideas, mainly to do with large banks). Will the gold price likely revert to the norm? Statistics says it will.

    http://www.usfunds.com/investor-reso.../#.UgcGyiSN200
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  3. #5163
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    Quote Originally Posted by elZorro View Post
    Will the gold price likely revert to the norm? Statistics says it will
    If gold reverts to the mean EZ it'll be around $700.
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  4. #5164
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    You might find this chart interesting EZ, this is gold reverting to the mean. $700.

    Gold was deregulated in 1971 at $35, an inflation calculator shows that in today's money that's $202, which shows you how out of whack gold is.

    In 1913, gold was $19, the inflation calculator says adjusted for inflation gold should be $450.

    Do gold prices still have a long way to fall? They sure do!
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    Last edited by Skol; 11-08-2013 at 07:42 PM.

  5. #5165
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    The US prints a whole lot of money, they'll have to print more in the next 10 years, and some of it gets invested in more gold to store in various parts of the world, as a safety measure. The halfway mark up that gold price graph of yours is meaningless. But tied to the US liquidity measures, $1780 an ounce looks sensible. If that chart continues and they need to add a few trillion of liquidity within 10 years, it'll go a lot higher still.

    The CPI chart is obviously not well correlated with the gold price. So why show the two together as if there is some strong link? Unless you want to add to the bank propaganda. It's so unrelated, that a linear equation is a very poor fit, it's not parabolic , there is no equation that you could use on data of that kind to get any kind of a tight prediction.

    This is more like a chart that shows what has happened. Unhappily, it would seem that Skol might (sort of) be right about the banks not pulling down the price of gold. Well, not directly. Overseas investors must be thinking the US economy is on the way up, and they can do better with stocks. The overseas investment side of the Treasuries total is the part most strongly correlated with the gold price. On July 16 Treasury released data up to June. I charted the foreign ownership. It looks a lot like this is very linked to the US$gold price. The right side is in Billions of paper dollars.
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    Last edited by elZorro; 11-08-2013 at 05:35 PM.

  6. #5166
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    Recycling of jewellery may help gold price improvement

    Ross Louthean — 12 August 2013
    Where else should the now concerning course of the gold price be discussed than Australia’s gold capital of Kalgoorlie.
    It was an issue raised often during last week’s annual Diggers & Dealers Forum with the most magnetic presentation being by the World Gold Council’s managing director of investment, Marcus Grubb.
    The question of where was the gold price heading was asked of a few speakers and Grubb’s blunt response was that because of his position in the industry it was not an issue he could, or would, discuss.
    However, his presentation showed there were some good pointers for the price of gold and these indicated that the gold price may not continue a downward spiral.
    Journalists asked the same question of OceanaGold Corporation’s chief executive Mick Wilkes and he indicated it was difficult to predict but he felt it was likely to go “sideways” for a couple of years and then perhaps it might recover.
    A positive factor for Wilkes was that the Kiwi dollar, for its New Zealand production, was more likely to regress as a generality rather than rise against the American greenback – the currency on which it details its production costs and capital spend.
    Marcus Grubb said the bullion market, now in surplus, could set the stage for a price recovery. Supplies of gold from recycling would fall by 300 tonnes in 2013, almost a fifth of last year's 1,600 t. The lower bullion prices have been deterring investors from cashing-in their jewellery.
    He told a media conference following his presentation: “Recycling is positively correlated to the gold price. In a bull market recycling rises as the price goes up, on the downside when the price drops - like we saw this year - you see recycling fall because people do not think they will get a good price for their gold.
    This drop-off began in the March quarter when recycling fell 4% as prices sagged, and accelerated in April when gold saw its sharpest drop in 30 years.
    Strong global economic data has dented gold's safe-haven appeal, physical buying in top consumers India and China remains subdued and traders expect further price falls.
    India and China continue to lead the trade in recycled gold where individuals hold 20 000t and 10 000t respectively.
    Grubb told the ABC radio programme AM that the decline in recycling combined with less "new" gold output from mines was helping offset the additional 650t estimated to enter the market in 2013 as more holdings by exchange traded funds are unwound.
    “What that has done is create a temporary surplus this year," Grubb said. "You need balance to be restored in the gold market in the short term for the longer term drivers of the price to return.
    So I think overall we see it more that the market balance between physical demand and supply is being re-established very quickly, probably before the end of this year that will be done.
    So, you have very strong demand from Asia, central banks, long-term demand kicking back in with mine production probably likely to fall rather than rise. So because of that, we're pretty bullish on gold in the medium term.
    AM reporter Sue Lannin asked: What happens though if the US central bank, the Federal Reserve, does start to withdraw stimulus from the US economy? That will push up the $US and push down the price of gold won't it?
    Grubb responded: Certainly a stronger dollar is a headwind for gold. I mean that's a well known fact in the gold market. It's negatively correlated with the trade-weighted $US.
    However we feel that scenario is by no means a certainty. And as we were hearing from another speaker at Diggers and Dealers, the outlook for the US economy is not nearly as rosy as some observers would currently claim. We also think that the Federal Reserve may not taper as early as September or even December.
    So, asked Sue Lannin, do investors still see gold as a safe haven?
    Grubb answered: Undoubtedly they do. And I think the interesting thing though is throughout this cycle with the credit crunch and the recovery and where we are today, you've seen gold move around.
    It can be a safe haven and a store of value, so it effectively reacts as a risk-off asset. It can also though act as a risk-on asset. So if people get more bullish, if investors become more positive about equities - provided interest rates don't rise too rapidly, if there is a little bit of inflation - then gold can rally at the same time as equity markets.
    It hedges you in both scenarios. Once it is clear, once you're through the uncertainty, and you know which way markets are generally going, gold then still acts as a hedging asset one way or the other and that's one of its great strengths.
    Sources: nzresources.com files and abcnews.net.au/am
    From NZResources. A reduction of 300 tonne in recycled gold as the price dropped. Producers all showing concern at the lower prices for gold, but in the medium term there is better to come.

    Since a strong economy is founded on a monetary surplus from cheap energy, I don't see where the USA or Europe are going to find this in the short term. They will continue to print money. China and India still effectively have cheap energy from their populations. The longer-term answer is clear: the world needs to develop the tools to have cheaper, more carbon-neutral energy sources, pronto.
    Last edited by elZorro; 12-08-2013 at 07:09 AM.

  7. #5167
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    This should give you an indication of how far gold might fall.

    --------------------


    Louis Woodhill-Contributor


    Was gold “worth” $1,895.00/oz on September 6, 2011? Yes, in the sense that participants in a deep, liquid, world-wide market were willing to trade 1,895 dollars for one ounce of gold on that day. No, if judged in the light of historical relationships with other real goods and services.

    In 1967, 57.14 ounces of gold would buy you a new VW Beetle with no air conditioning, no power anything, and 53 horsepower. On September 6, 2011, the same amount of gold would have allowed you to purchase a new 2012 Mercedes S550 with 429 horsepower and every luxury feature known to man.

    In 1967, an ounce of gold was worth $35.00, which would buy 78 Big Macs. On September 6, 2011, McDonalds would have been happy to sell you 466 Big Macs for the $1,895.00 that you could have obtained for the same one ounce of gold. Yesterday (June 26), an ounce of gold would still have gotten you 301 Big Macs.

    Could gold fall farther? Yes. The price of gold and the general price level always equilibrate eventually. In other words, a gold price of $1,895.00/oz on September 6, 2011 made it certain that either gold prices would fall (by a lot), or inflation would rise (by a lot).

    How much farther could gold fall? Well, the price of gold would have to go to $316.56 just to restore parity with the Big Mac. And, a $35/oz gold price in 1967 would be the same as $192.50/oz today, after adjustment via the GDP Deflator.


    http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoo...-economy-sags/

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    Skol, you have a very transparent habit of selecting points in time or articles that suit your argument. Anyone that only ever looks at one side of a coin has a flawed argument. However your constant anti gold barrage is at least amusing, albeit a little fixated. Gold will go up, gold will go down, its just my view that over time gold will be quite a lot higher than where it currently is. The USD is likely to gather strength at least short term if they reign in QE & gold could suffer more if that happens as well, however in AUD terms it could be higher or at least any strength in the USD would be cushioned. I looked back to when you started this thread in Dec 2009 when gold was trading around $1150, so in 3.5 years you are yet to be right. You missed a circa 70% rise in the POG to when it peaked but you still were bearish all the way. If you had shorted gold in Dec 2009 you would still be out of the money by 15% at the current price. Keep it up Skol, if not to only to amuse as I enjoy your posts. Cheers Daytr

  9. #5169
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    Daytr,

    Yes I picked that gold was in a bubble 2 years before everyone else, copped a fair bit of flak for it too, but not to worry, I've got a thick skin and I've still got my money, which a lot of gold and silver bugs haven't.

    And for the last 2 years, I've been right, the bubble's popped, for sure, gold is still the most overvalued asset on Earth.

    Others say why haven't I shorted it and made some money. I have - I own shares, lots of them that for the last 2 years have made quite a lot of money while gold and silver have crashed!!. lol A man of your alleged experience will know that shares and precious metals are mostly uncorrelated.

    The side of the argument I don't look at is the KWN, SilverBearCafe et.al argument and the conspiracy and Armageddon scenarios, I'll leave that to you Daytr.

    You're one of the few remaining diehards along with JBMurc and El Zorro, almost everyone else has thrown in the towel and moved on to more profitable trades.
    Last edited by Skol; 12-08-2013 at 02:07 PM.

  10. #5170
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    Hi Skol, you don't leave the likes of KWN etc to me, as I largely ignore them as well or Armageddon scenarios as when have I ever written anything along those lines? I too own shares, shares in miners be them gold stocks, or growth related mining stocks that mine iron ore & copper etc. I also own bank shares which have done very well. However since the gold crashed & bottomed it has been my gold stocks that have out performed & since I loaded up around 6 weeks ago I have done very nicely. You say you called a gold bubble 2 years before anyone else or actually you were just wrong for 2 years. I called the gold bubble when it started to soar from $1650 to $ 1920 & advised clients to hedge & hedge as much as they could especially when it started trading around $1850. I am now advising clients to buy gold stocks & have been doing so for the last 2 months.

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