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View Poll Results: Should there be a Capital Gains Tax on Property

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  • No

    202 100.00%
  • Yes

    60 58.25%
  • Goff is just an idiot

    2,147,483,655 100.00%
  • Epic fail for Labour

    1,930 100.00%
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  1. #481
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBmurc View Post
    This week it emerged that while the Tax Working Group has disbanded, Cullen has had his contract extended by the Government.l
    Thats because Adern and Robertson are clueless. They clearly haven't read the report (like Adern yesterday not knowing about the greenhouse taxes in the report), Adern has lied about her small business experience so has no clue how a CGT might impact Small businesses and the best she can say about farmers is she lived in Morrinsville. Given these two are the best chance Labour has of understanding a CGT ( the rest of them are simply gormless), they need all the help they can get. Hence Cullen staying on to help develop the policy.

    To be fair they are both probably trying to fight the Kiwibuild fires since Twyford id so out of his depth and the hole he is digging only keeps getting deeper.

  2. #482
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    Interesting that national had all the answers and conjured up figures prepared before they could have read the tax working group. report. Attempting to spread fear and misinformation and fake news around in advance. This is what this party has morphed into divisiveness, power at any cost, a polar opposite to where we need to be heading inclusive ness, fairness, well being, narrowing gaps, Global warming action, strong economy etc.

    It will be transparent to voters next election and voting for the Mercenary Party will be limited to an ever diminishing self inflicted sense of entitlement group whittling away to irrelevancy. Boy is there a complete rebuild needed for this fakery.

  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBmurc View Post
    This week it emerged that while the Tax Working Group has disbanded, Cullen has had his contract extended by the Government.
    Cabinet papers show Cullen was to be paid $1062 a day in his role as chairman of the TWG.
    “We extended his appointment as the chair of the TWG to 30 June because we were aware there would be extended public discussion on the report, and this has played out,” Finance Minister Grant Robertson said in a statement



    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2019/03/c..._national.html
    Well, he certainly sits firmly on the gravvy train, doesn't he? Non performance is for this government a key indicator to reward people.
    ----
    "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future" (Niels Bohr)

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Interesting that national had all the answers and conjured up figures prepared before they could have read the tax working group. report. Attempting to spread fear and misinformation and fake news around in advance. This is what this party has morphed into divisiveness, power at any cost, a polar opposite to where we need to be heading inclusive ness, fairness, well being, narrowing gaps, Global warming action, strong economy etc.

    It will be transparent to voters next election and voting for the Mercenary Party will be limited to an ever diminishing self inflicted sense of entitlement group whittling away to irrelevancy. Boy is there a complete rebuild needed for this fakery.
    CGT divides the country, not the National Party. Labour has tried this before and always been burnt badly, but they don't learn

  5. #485
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    Smile Disgusting Waste of Taxpayer Money Part II - How many $ to Implement

    [QUOTE=JBmurc;750420]This week it emerged that while the Tax Working Group has disbanded, Cullen has had his contract extended by the Government. Cabinet papers show Cullen was to be paid $1062 a day in his role as chairman of the TWG. “We extended his appointment as the chair of the TWG to 30 June because we were aware there would be extended public discussion on the report, and this has played out,” Finance Minister Grant Robertson said in a statement

    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2019/03/cullen_being_paid_1000_a_day_to_attack_national.ht ml[/url

    Thanks JBMurc

    I understand the Government is interested in feedback on CGT from voters.

    If this was not a costly, error fraught issue for kiwis and taxpayers, I would not comment on a political matter.

    However on this I feel we all should provide feedback as we see it - any shade any side of the arguments - our authentic views

    I agree with those TWG members who considered some plans unworkable and complex and are against a Cullen CGT tax.

    A few of my de Bono type "white facts" or musings.

    Cullen in 18 years in Parliament, some as Minister of Finance, did not see any merit - however at $1000+ a day he is happy to present options.
    Robertson and Adern are financially inexperienced - if they make enough mistakes, like CGT on the scale outlined they may learn something ...
    If there are problems with a small % with extensive property who pay little tax this can be addressed with current tax laws.
    When the last Tax Law rewrite started the goal was to simplify the Act and reduce the size. That worthy goal was abandoned.
    Politicians, Coalition Governments and bureaucrats as usual will likely create a new CGT monster ...
    If more revenue is the issue Jacinda needs the courage to increase tax and GST with transparency or cut Govt expenditure & give up the "CGT rabbit out of the hat" trick with "someboby else" paying for the feel good stuff"
    Uncertainty is costly, time lost can never be regained, and the Government is clearly uncertain - why get Cullen yesterdays man to advise ...
    The Govt should do their job ... just better than Kiwibuild ...
    A simple tax system is always best
    While Jacinda is one of the best Spin presenters in the world her arguments / illusions such as Norway and Canada have a CGT, implied therefore NZ ...
    I am sure we all remember "correllation is not causation"

    What do you think?

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Interesting that national had all the answers and conjured up figures prepared before they could have read the tax working group. report.
    Again an example of Labour not getting off their lazy arse. An interim report came out in Sept 2018 so plenty of time (including extended summer holidays) for both parties to get their heads around the likely issues and come up with some numbers. What particular numbers dont you like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Attempting to spread fear and misinformation and fake news around in advance.
    What "Fake news" about CGT have they spread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    This is what this party has morphed into divisiveness, power at any cost, a polar opposite to where we need to be heading inclusive ness, fairness, well being, narrowing gaps, Global warming action, strong economy etc.
    I know you will only have 9 years of Labour in opposition to see what an opposition party does in opposition - not very much. Obviously. National is simply showing you what any good opposition party should be doing - and that is laying open any potential flaws in government thinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    It will be transparent to voters next election and voting for the Mercenary Party will be limited to an ever diminishing self inflicted sense of entitlement group whittling away to irrelevancy. Boy is there a complete rebuild needed for this fakery.
    Start knocking your average Kiwi Battler in their Kiwisaver account as well as their limited investment opportunities and you'll likely see a ground swell of support for any opposition.

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    A bit of a pointless exercise - because you really need to look at the tax system as a whole. And that is way too complex for a post on a forum
    I ageee. That is why it is folly to justify a CGT with primary residence and other exemptions simply on the basis that is what happens in other jurisdictions. You need to look at all the taxes and imposts (or lack therof.)
    Last edited by Bjauck; 07-03-2019 at 03:28 PM.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Again an example of Labour not getting off their lazy arse. An interim report came out in Sept 2018 so plenty of time (including extended summer holidays) for both parties to get their heads around the likely issues and come up with some numbers. What particular numbers dont you like?

    What "Fake news" about CGT have they spread?

    I know you will only have 9 years of Labour in opposition to see what an opposition party does in opposition - not very much. Obviously. National is simply showing you what any good opposition party should be doing - and that is laying open any potential flaws in government thinking

    Start knocking your average Kiwi Battler in their Kiwisaver account as well as their limited investment opportunities and you'll likely see a ground swell of support for any opposition.
    Attempted groundswell spin and fear from National . We will see what the Govt takes up, im thinking the property cap gains tax myself and good job too, its been an unfair situ for far too long and National would never do anything that may be the slightest threat to their base thats all they care about.A thorough cleanout and reset is what they need to have any chance down the line.The removal of power avarice and snouts in the trough.

    As i said there are also good people in the national party too but they are being tarred with the same egotistical brush welded by their leader and his cronies.They need to remove this destructive rump asap imo..

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Attempted groundswell spin and fear from National . We will see what the Govt takes up, im thinking the property cap gains tax myself and good job too, its been an unfair situ for far too long
    There is already a tax on rentalproperty that is bought then flicked. Are you suggesting a SGT on teh family home?
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    and National would never do anything that may be the slightest threat to their base thats all they care about.A thorough cleanout and reset is what they need to have any chance down the line.The removal of power avarice and snouts in the trough.
    It was National who bought in the rental capital gains tax and removed a few tax "incentives" as well

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    As i said there are also good people in the national party too but they are being tarred with the same egotistical brush welded by their leader and his cronies.They need to remove this destructive rump asap imo..
    Any person entering parliament is likely to have a large ego. They think they can lead a country afteralll,

  10. #490
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    Recent article on property investment, their example assumed the property was also paid off over 25 years. Even on conservative return settings, it's way better than a standard fund, because of leverage and tax being defrayed until the end.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/...y+8+March+2019

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by elZorro View Post
    Recent article on property investment, their example assumed the property was also paid off over 25 years. Even on conservative return settings, it's way better than a standard fund, because of leverage and tax being defrayed until the end.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/...y+8+March+2019
    Seems to be a few things missing. Like the GST paid on 1% of property value each year on repairs and maintenance.

    And at 3% capital gain, 2% is simply due to inflation. Leaving just 1% true capital gain.

    And this is where it gets complex and where Robertson cant figure things out. Say there is a $99 capital gain. $66 is due to inflation and has nothing to do with the property owner. $33 is the gain the property owner makes on taking the risk in owning property.

    Now, what labour wants to do is tax the gain at the nominal tax rate. So the $99 is going to be taxed at 33%. Meaning $33 comes off the $99 gain.

    So essentially the government wants to tax 100% of any gain the property owner makes on taking a risk.

    Thats what happens when you vote for a "fair" government!
    Last edited by minimoke; 08-03-2019 at 11:02 AM.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshuatree View Post
    Attempted groundswell spin and fear from National . We will see what the Govt takes up, im thinking the property cap gains tax myself and good job too, its been an unfair situ for far too long and National would never do anything that may be the slightest threat to their base thats all they care about.A thorough cleanout and reset is what they need to have any chance down the line.The removal of power avarice and snouts in the trough.

    As i said there are also good people in the national party too but they are being tarred with the same egotistical brush welded by their leader and his cronies.They need to remove this destructive rump asap imo..
    It would be interesting to see the type of assets owned by the voters for National and Labour. Whilst, National voters on average are probably wealthier, I suspect the middle class Labour voters would tend to rely more on public sector pension schemes and rental housing investments rather than shares or business assets. However this is just my guesstimate and I have not seen anything to corroborate it! Perhaps the MP’s list of pecuniary and real interests could be an indication.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 08-03-2019 at 11:17 AM.

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Seems to be a few things missing. Like the GST paid on 1% of property value each year on repairs and maintenance.

    And at 3% capital gain, 2% is simply due to inflation. Leaving just 1% true capital gain.

    And this is where it gets complex and where Robertson cant figure things out. Say there is a $99 capital gain. $66 is due to inflation and has nothing to do with the property owner. $33 is the gain the property owner makes on taking the risk in owning property.

    Now, what labour wants to do is tax the gain at the nominal tax rate. So the $99 is going to be taxed at 33%. Meaning $33 comes off the $99 gain.

    So essentially the government wants to tax 100% of any gain the property owner makes on taking a risk.

    Thats what happens when you vote for a "fair" government!
    I still fail to see the complexities of CGT. In the past posts you mentioned determining the correct 'valuation' for CGT would be a major problem. But it doesn't seem an issue in countries that have CGT.

    'Inflation' it's not added in the picture in terms of comparing different investments assets because inflation is compared equally across everything. It's the fault of the person that chooses to earn income from ie. cash term deposit than instead of higher risk ventures like stocks or rental properties, when it's clear the former gets the person less after tax income.

    Again GST is a non-issue if you're rental property runs like a business where you claim the maintenance expenses off the rental income. If the person is not declaring the rental income as taxable income, then it's fair they absorb the GST cost.

    If a person had $100 in gain and they're in the 33% tax bracket, (for simplicity) they would be paying $33 in tax. How complicated is that? In Canada and Australia, $50 of that gain is only taxable income so the take take would be only $16.50

    If Jacinda chooses a CGT to be a tax no different to wage income (or interest deposit income), then I would expect a huge shift of $ leaving NZ as places like Australia and abroad would be more welcoming for investments that incur capital gain. A rise in non-residency status by the wealthy, but unfortunately for the avg rental property investor, leaving NZ is just not convenient or possible.

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    I still fail to see the complexities of CGT. In the past posts you mentioned determining the correct 'valuation' for CGT would be a major problem. But it doesn't seem an issue in countries that have CGT.
    Its not just me. The NZIER says, of valuation "This can become very complicated when, for example,assets have not been traded for a very long time. Inevitably, averages of one sort oranother are applied. This means some assets will be under-taxed and others overtaxed."

    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    'Inflation' it's not added in the picture in terms of comparing different investments assets because inflation is compared equally across everything. It's the fault of the person that chooses to earn income from ie. cash term deposit than instead of higher risk ventures like stocks or rental properties, when it's clear the former gets the person less after tax income.
    The later is only positively impacted if there is a gain from the risk. And thats not always the case - thats why its called risk

    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    Again GST is a non-issue if you're rental property runs like a business where you claim the maintenance expenses off the rental income. If the person is not declaring the rental income as taxable income, then it's fair they absorb the GST cost.
    Its an issue with the asset class. If you have your capital in a property GST is generated. If you have it in say shares there is no GST because no money is being spent on the upkeep of the capital

    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    If a person had $100 in gain and they're in the 33% tax bracket, (for simplicity) they would be paying $33 in tax. How complicated is that? In Canada and Australia, $50 of that gain is only taxable income so the take take would be only $16.50
    As I pointed out, that is taxing 100% of the non inflation gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by SBQ View Post
    If Jacinda chooses a CGT to be a tax no different to wage income (or interest deposit income), then I would expect a huge shift of $ leaving NZ as places like Australia and abroad would be more welcoming for investments that incur capital gain. A rise in non-residency status by the wealthy, but unfortunately for the avg rental property investor, leaving NZ is just not convenient or possible.
    There will be a pile of known and unintended consequences. Is it really worth it for the $1b or so in extra tax they hope to generate.

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    ...

    Its an issue with the asset class. If you have your capital in a property GST is generated. If you have it in say shares there is no GST because no money is being spent on the upkeep of the capital

    As I pointed out, that is taxing 100% of the non inflation gain.

    There will be a pile of known and unintended consequences. Is it really worth it for the $1b or so in extra tax they hope to generate.
    Some investors in shares have their shares in a custodial service sometimes with fees paid either at a flat rate or as a % of the value for the custody and sometimes an extra % paid for additional “advice”. So they also pay GST.

    Currently investors in fixed interest investments have all the return taxed as income (including the inflation component.)

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