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View Poll Results: Should there be a Capital Gains Tax on Property

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  • No

    202 100.00%
  • Yes

    60 58.25%
  • Goff is just an idiot

    2,147,483,655 100.00%
  • Epic fail for Labour

    1,930 100.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by westerly View Post
    More revolting and dumb is your consistently snide comments re the PM as if she is personally responsible for all Labour policy. Criticise the policies not the messenger.
    To be fair Labour has very little policy. Its all being made up on the hoof. 9 years in opposition and nothing to show for it - which is why Labour cant articulate their CGT policy. Leaving it instead to her hand puppet Cullen who is still trying to stick it to rich pricks.

  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    May be worth remembering also westerly that about 75% of "taxpayers" in NZ get equal or more from the Government in various subsidies than they pay in tax. So the Government's income is nearly entirely borne by the top 20% of earners and businesses (they also pay most of the GST). It is ridiculous to claim as has been done on this thread that most of them don't pay tax. So I totally disagree with you and suggest they in fact do have something to complain about if their tax burden is to be increased even further.
    I thought this had been covered before. National (Bill English) used to say that lower income households paid no tax. Maybe no net income tax, but they do pay GST on almost everything, plus fuel and alcohol, cigarette levies etc. Plus profits from power companies.. Handouts from govt to even things out will, to a large extent, end back with the govt as income from various sources. I would also dispute that the top 20% pay most of the GST (more than 50%), how about some figures? Also, if you're looking at businesses, for them GST is a neutral item removed form their books. If they sell stuff only in NZ, they should be paying GST across each period, but they first collect it from their customers, or end users. They don't pay the GST, they just collect it. Exporters don't have any GST on their overseas sales to collect, so they get all their GST costs back each period.

  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by elZorro View Post
    I thought this had been covered before. National (Bill English) used to say that lower income households paid no tax. Maybe no net income tax, but they do pay GST on almost everything, plus fuel and alcohol, cigarette levies etc. Plus profits from power companies.. Handouts from govt to even things out will, to a large extent, end back with the govt as income from various sources. I would also dispute that the top 20% pay most of the GST (more than 50%), how about some figures? Also, if you're looking at businesses, for them GST is a neutral item removed form their books. If they sell stuff only in NZ, they should be paying GST across each period, but they first collect it from their customers, or end users. They don't pay the GST, they just collect it. Exporters don't have any GST on their overseas sales to collect, so they get all their GST costs back each period.
    Thanks for that eZ, but I think you'll find that most readers on this site are over the age of seven, and therefore understand how GST works.

  4. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by westerly View Post
    More revolting and dumb is your consistently snide comments re the PM as if she is personally responsible for all Labour policy. Criticise the policies not the messenger.

    The discussion is about whether higher income earners should pay more tax and whether CGT should be paid on unearned income. Not about rubbishing rich people.
    In my view NZ at the higher income levels has low taxation compared with other developed countries. As FP says loopholes in taxation are legitimate but wage and salary earners have little access to them. Whether wealthy immigrants are of value to NZ is questionable, A family with a couple of kids is possibly of more value.
    Also I think most of the arguments about CGT have little foundation in fact and are more personal objections to CGT especially seeing nothing has been set in concrete.

    westerly
    You're incorrect about NZ having lower taxes for high income earners. I would be glad to match NZ's income tax, GST, & ACC to Canada's taxation level. It's well regarded Canada is a country known for high taxation - a key reason why I left 20+ years ago. As I mentioned before, absolute #s don't tell the whole story. You need to work out the buying power that a NZD has vs a CAD or USD has in their country?

    The problem I have with Jacinda is her BS talk about making NZ's tax system "fair". Like that video link 2 pages ago about the 3 characters who raised their own family and wanted to put up a fence in their community. If the highest earning family member all of a sudden left, moved abroad, then what would that leave for the other 2 resident families?

    You would be a fool to believe domestic $ alone is enough to keep NZ afloat. Foreign investment plays a big part of NZ. Almost all the banks in NZ are foreign, they won't stick around if the investment wasn't in NZ. Do you really want to wish that everyone ends up working for the gov't? It's an argument I had at my last social party I went to where a person suggested rich people don't pay enough. He couldn't understand that rich people don't just leave their $ in a bank account and drive fancy cars. Most derived their income from businesses (or investing in businesses) which provide employment. Take away the after tax profit incentive and then what would you have at the end? Remember, this is NZ - $ can easily flow out. What are the reason for those that worked hard to stick around? Canada has plenty of mountains and fresh water lakes ; it's nothing that NZ has is unique around the world.

    The question every NZ person should query is; How much of the tax revenue is paid by the rich or top 20%? and more importantly, how much MORE taxes do you expect the Labour Gov't to get from those top 20% before THEY start moving abroad? It's a very simple question.

  5. #425
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    SBQ - is it a case of wealthy Global citizens choosing their country of residence according to how much tax they have to pay?
    Last edited by Bjauck; 02-03-2019 at 10:43 AM.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    SBQ - is it a case of wealthy Global citizens choosing their country of residence according to how much tax they have to pay?
    Most people try to avoid places where they are not welcome and go to places where they are.

    NZ used to be an open and welcoming place attracting high performers who also wanted to have a life. The current government is swiftly changing that. It is curbing immigration - and it tries to tax performance. Wealthier people might feel that the government tries to extract more than their fair share out of them.

    Obviously - this is a fine balance ... the people taking the taxes frequently have a different view on what is "fair" than the people paying them and many left whingers think that only taking everything from the wicked rich is fair - at the end eveybody should have as little as their neighbour, no matter how hard they work.

    I think it makes sense to go away if you don't agree with the governemnt and you can't change it - doesn't it?
    ----
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  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by 777 View Post
    What has your post got to do with the argument. You simply run off on a tangent to some weird part of your mind. Any way I can't be bothered continuing with this stupid exchange.

    You have just become the second person on my ignore list. Congratulations.
    Yep i hit that sore selfish guilty spot.Fundamentally i think you have it in you to give, just need to change that early faulty childhood programming which most of us have despite our Parents doing the best they could with the knowledge they had at the time.Best wishes.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    Thanks for that eZ, but I think you'll find that most readers on this site are over the age of seven, and therefore understand how GST works.
    What does that say about Iceman? But to be truthful I often have to remind myself how GST works, and for products or charges towards ultimately exported goods, I would assume no net GST is ever collected by the govt. So that's a fair bit of the farming sector and all exporters, plus the supplies to them.

    Farmers are well known as being very low in the ranking of income tax payments generally, as they trade with a low return on investment. But some of these same farmers do end up with a big cash settlement when the farm is eventually sold to external buyers, and that's tax free at the moment. Current average value of a dairy farm in NZ? $11million, % average ownership, about 70%. Some of that value is inflation, but some of it is a business profit on the land value and earning potential in a good year.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by elZorro View Post
    ..Farmers are well known as being very low in the ranking of income tax payments generally, as they trade with a low return on investment. But some of these same farmers do end up with a big cash settlement when the farm is eventually sold to external buyers, and that's tax free at the moment. .....
    And that is how the current model works. Break-even your whole life, just keeping your head above the water making nothing, and then finally, finally, get your reward at the end when selling the asset. Applies to farmers and landlords alike, and it has never been a choice; it is a result of natural market forces.

    If CGT gets introduced the model will change as all landlords/farmers will need to acquire the eventual CG Taxable amount over the period of their ownership. i.e. make up for it by charging higher prices or charging higher rent to make bigger after-tax profits during the ownership period. So either (1) prices/rent will rise, or (2) the cost of housing and farms will drop. I wager 95% of the 'shift' will be seen in (1).

    Introduction of CGT will be grossly unfair to those who have had to operate under the existing model for the last 10-40 years, which will not and can not have taken the introduction and impact of CGT into account. CGT will strip current-day landlords/farmers of their reward, compounded by mechanism (2) a reduced sale price for their farm or house.

    You say 'some' of these farmers elZ... what about the rest of them... just collateral damage?

  10. #430
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    I found this February 2019 discussion on CGT with Roger Douglas very interesting.

    https://www.facebook.com/magictalkra...9582031549755/

    It is lengthy, but it is all worth listening to imho, in particular the first 24 minutes.

    Disc: Not a Roger Douglas fan by any stretch. As interesting as this discussion is, I offer no view on it.
    Last edited by Vaygor1; 02-03-2019 at 09:35 PM. Reason: Added disclosure

  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaygor1 View Post
    And that is how the current model works. Break-even your whole life, just keeping your head above the water making nothing, and then finally, finally, get your reward at the end when selling the asset. Applies to farmers and landlords alike, and it has never been a choice; it is a result of natural market forces.

    If CGT gets introduced the model will change as all landlords/farmers will need to acquire the eventual CG Taxable amount over the period of their ownership. i.e. make up for it by charging higher prices or charging higher rent to make bigger after-tax profits during the ownership period. So either (1) prices/rent will rise, or (2) the cost of housing and farms will drop. I wager 95% of the 'shift' will be seen in (1).

    Introduction of CGT will be grossly unfair to those who have had to operate under the existing model for the last 10-40 years, which will not and can not have taken the introduction and impact of CGT into account. CGT will strip current-day landlords/farmers of their reward, compounded by mechanism (2) a reduced sale price for their farm or house.

    You say 'some' of these farmers elZ... what about the rest of them... just collateral damage?
    Some farmers don't sell, the farm is passed on, so the CGT would roll over. I don't think this govt will bring in CGT without an allowance for inflation. Therefore the CGT should apply to all asset sales, businesses, property excluding the family home (limit on that value depending on location) and farms etc sold to an external party. Maybe the big difference between businesses and property/farming is that the land is a safe risk, it can't be tampered with generally, it doesn't become worthless over time if the business situation changes. So I'd agree with you that some business people break-even for a lot of the time, and at the end there might be no value left. That's not the case for land-owners. Hence they are a bit more aggro about a CGT than business people.

  12. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    SBQ - is it a case of wealthy Global citizens choosing their country of residence according to how much tax they have to pay?
    Definitely No. If you didn't understand my last question, the issue is somebody has to be in the top 20%. When gov't policy erodes the incentive to perform because said left population says it's unfair, then what do you think will happen? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise that all the extra effort and stress to run a business, or make investments, for the sake of being rewarded will no longer apply - people will just simply give up, and then you would end up with a top the 20% that doesn't have anything to tax.

    Don't be concerned about the wealthy people moving $ around, they've already done so. Be concerned about the hard working businesses that employ people - when these owners are fed up and realise the gov't has slaved them with no reward, then watch out. It doesn't take much to go on the dole.

  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by elZorro View Post
    Some farmers don't sell, the farm is passed on, so the CGT would roll over. I don't think this govt will bring in CGT without an allowance for inflation. Therefore the CGT should apply to all asset sales, businesses, property excluding the family home (limit on that value depending on location) and farms etc sold to an external party. Maybe the big difference between businesses and property/farming is that the land is a safe risk, it can't be tampered with generally, it doesn't become worthless over time if the business situation changes. So I'd agree with you that some business people break-even for a lot of the time, and at the end there might be no value left. That's not the case for land-owners. Hence they are a bit more aggro about a CGT than business people.
    As I mentioned before, all property sooner or later has to be sold (or exchanged hands). You can't "roll over a CGT" by passing on property. lol Upon death "Deemed Disposition" applies which is all assets are considered valued and eventually sold. This is why many OECD nations have exemptions to the CGT for farmland. It allows family members to pass on their land. Yes it's complicated but the reasons are clear.

    The real winners in all this mess IMO, is the banks. They've loaned out all these mortgages, collected interest and not to ever worry about a CGT or any form of taxation on the property. Interest compounding has made the banks rich, but we're not seeing the gov't going after banks.

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by elZorro View Post
    Some farmers don't sell, the farm is passed on, so the CGT would roll over. I don't think this govt will bring in CGT without an allowance for inflation. Therefore the CGT should apply to all asset sales, businesses, property excluding the family home
    If CGT is brought in there is absolutely no case for excluding the family home.

  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    If CGT is brought in there is absolutely no case for excluding the family home.
    Yes there is, the interest on private properties is an after-tax expense and not partly reclaimed in a set of books. Nor are any other costs like rates, insurance and upkeep/maintenance covered. Domestic and commercial rent/leases generally cover most or all of these costs. People living in their own homes may also spend any savings on house extensions or regular renovation, unlike rentiers. So their real capital gain will be minimal in most situations.

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