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View Poll Results: Should there be a Capital Gains Tax on Property

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  • No

    210 100.00%
  • Yes

    67 56.30%
  • Goff is just an idiot

    2,147,483,658 100.00%
  • Epic fail for Labour

    1,932 100.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. #821
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Ten View Post
    ....
    - In the meantime, a large proportion of Gen X'ers and Millenials probably need to come to the realisation that home ownership is not going to be the norm for their generations. Their job is to stop procreating - which has been helped by slow wage growth relative to house price growth - i.e. large families (say, 5+) are unaffordable
    - Therefore, in 30 years time we have less people, more houses and prices go down.
    If home ownership is not going to be the norm then it should not be treated as a special case. Net imputed rent should be taxed just like the interest from a term deposit is taxed or non-cash or fringe benefits are taxed.

    Immigration not natural population increase has been a big driver in creating the demand for the limited supply. Boomers were happy to see this result in a surge in prices for their homes and rental investments often enjoying more in this untaxed capital gain than from employment or business.


    I know it's very simplistic and that the government can and will tweak around the edges but, as we've seen, all governments (regardless of colour) have struggled to make much of an impact.
    They have been kicking the can down the road.

    The variable in there that needs some attention is wage growth. And by wage growth I mean, productivity driven wage growth, not wage growth driven by government intervention (minimum wages) which just leads to price increases and inflation. At the moment, it seems like our pollies are throwing darts at the board with things like fees-free university, etc.
    Productivity growth requires capital investment in business - why invest into business when you have gotten so much untaxed leveraged capital gain in real estate? Successful NZ companies have so often had to relocate their listings to Australia to access capital...

    Offering meaningful change makes Parties unelectable in NZ?
    Last edited by Bjauck; 15-10-2020 at 05:25 PM.

  2. #822
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemis View Post
    ...
    But first governments, central and local, need to step out of the way. Sort the RMA, sort the rural urban boundary, sort consents process and costs, stop interfering in the rental market more than with other businesses.

    Realistically there are going to be some limits, but need be nowhere near as many as there are now. But if people in the supply chain can make a decent buck from building, they will. And if cheap, people will buy or rent. Might mean cookie cutter or imports in containers from China. Might mean permanent trailer parks.

    Might be like an idea Rodney Hide wrote about a few months ago, a small trial subdivision where people could buy a section and build what they like with minimal or no consents or comebacks. Every buyer agrees.

    People put up basic baches for generations and just got on with life. Worked well.
    Back to dangerous and unhealthy slum housing and landlords?

  3. #823
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Back to dangerous and unhealthy slum housing and landlords?
    That's a simplistic and skewed point of view. Have you read the Healthy Homes standards?

    If there is a shortage of rental housing, people will be much more likely to bunk up together. And there does seem to be a shortage atm, though perhaps mainly for those the private sector is not at all interested in offering a tenancy to.

    If a rental does not meet all the current and coming soon standards landlords are in for huge fines. It does not mean the property is dangerous, or a slum. It might mean the insulation met the standard 3 years ago but no longer does. But might well mean the insulation does not get topped up, tenants get kicked out, move in with the rellies and the place goes on the market

    "University of Otago public health professor Philippa Howden-Chapman said overcrowding was the single biggest housing-related cause of poor mental and physical health."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...ing--economist

  4. #824
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemis View Post
    That's a simplistic and skewed point of view. Have you read the Healthy Homes standards?

    If there is a shortage of rental housing, people will be much more likely to bunk up together. And there does seem to be a shortage atm, though perhaps mainly for those the private sector is not at all interested in offering a tenancy to.

    If a rental does not meet all the current and coming soon standards landlords are in for huge fines. It does not mean the property is dangerous, or a slum. It might mean the insulation met the standard 3 years ago but no longer does. But might well mean the insulation does not get topped up, tenants get kicked out, move in with the rellies and the place goes on the market

    "University of Otago public health professor Philippa Howden-Chapman said overcrowding was the single biggest housing-related cause of poor mental and physical health."

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/h...ing--economist
    Slum housing for some seemed to be the inevitable consequence of what you were suggesting. So it is just that you want standards not to improve (for rental properties) - for them to be stuck in a time warp? So we need to provide more social housing to replace the gap left by landlords who would only have provided the sub-standard rental properties.

    Over-crowding is the biggest cause. Government (local and national) have failed to ensure housing supply (and other infrastructure) has been able to keep up with its immigration settings. That s the trouble when the only way (under current policies) to boost the economy is by boosting the population.

    Presumably there are other causes too. All those crowded boarding houses at private schools had better watch out!
    Last edited by Bjauck; 16-10-2020 at 07:01 AM.

  5. #825
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Slum housing for some seemed to be the inevitable consequence of what you were suggesting. So it is just that you want standards not to improve (for rental properties) - for them to be stuck in a time warp? So we need to provide more social housing to replace the gap left by landlords who would only have provided the sub-standard rental properties. ....
    Like I said above, have a read of the Healthy Homes regulations, not really for homes, just for rentals. And the long list of fines in the Residential Tenancies Act. If a landlord has to pay average $8k to meet the standards, the rent increase for a 2 bedroom townhouse in Parnell might work well. A rural 2 bedroom rural cottage not so much.

    The HH standards are highly prescriptive and some very complex. Plus a range of new measures from Minister Faafoi. Yes they might improve conditions for tenants and actually good for landlords that stick around as they upgrade and raise rents so the tenants pay.

    Landlords can make other decisions, because they can. 37% increase in house sales in September yoy - wonder where those come from?

    Consequences.

  6. #826
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    As we have previously discussed rentals tend to accommodate more people, so a substandard house with just one owner-occupier would be less hazardous to them than if they had four additional house-mates. However I agree, higher standards should be phased in for all NZ housing.

    Anyway we are highlighting the need for whatever government comes into power to introduce housing policies to relieve the housing shortage that has accumulated over the years if not decades. Housing has not kept up with immigration.

  7. #827
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    Thousands and thousands of rental vacancies advertised right now.

  8. #828
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemis View Post
    Thousands and thousands of rental vacancies advertised right now.
    What do you think that means? Post covid restrictions boom? Landlords with too high rent expectations in a covid recession? New landlords seeking tenants?

  9. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    What do you think that means? Post covid restrictions boom? Landlords with too high rent expectations in a covid recession? New landlords seeking tenants?
    Maybe all of the above and more. Even so, 20,000 waiting for heavily taxpayer subsidised housing can apply for them. And the taxpayer will still supply the Accommodation Supplement, TAS, bond and initial rent. Hard to keep talking about housing shortage with thousands of rental vacancies.

    If landlords decide not to reduce rent they will have their reasons. And if they are forgoing income the reasons will be acceptable to them.

  10. #830
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemis View Post
    Maybe all of the above and more. Even so, 20,000 waiting for heavily taxpayer subsidised housing can apply for them. And the taxpayer will still supply the Accommodation Supplement, TAS, bond and initial rent. Hard to keep talking about housing shortage with thousands of rental vacancies.
    ..
    Covid recession and covid tourism restrictions means a change in employment opportunities. Some regions are more heavily impacted. I would say that that since lockdown restrictions were eased there would also be population movement - so perhaps there could also be quite a few tenants looking for accommodation too. A jump in available accommodation at the moment, may not necessarily mean there are not still many people who are living in overcrowded conditions.

    Also with fewer foreign students, and fewer inward arrivals generally, there may be previously rented out accommodation looking for new tenants.

  11. #831
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    Green Party candidate Ali Hale Tilley says middle salary and wage earners carry more than their fair share of the tax burden and that if we want the country to prosper as a whole, the wealthy need to embrace paying tax instead of finding ways to hide it.
    "It's the nation's mindset that needs changing," she said. "It's a privilege to pay taxes. When it gets reinvested, everybody is lifted up."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politi...XFKMRF53WWG44/

  12. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    Green Party candidate Ali Hale Tilley says middle salary and wage earners carry more than their fair share of the tax burden and that if we want the country to prosper as a whole, the wealthy need to embrace paying tax instead of finding ways to hide it.
    "It's the nation's mindset that needs changing," she said. "It's a privilege to pay taxes. When it gets reinvested, everybody is lifted up."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politi...XFKMRF53WWG44/
    Treasury states that the top 3% pay 24% of income tax. I'm paying more than my fair share.

    https://www.treasury.govt.nz/informa...ays-income-tax

  13. #833
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    Green Party candidate Ali Hale Tilley says middle salary and wage earners carry more than their fair share of the tax burden and that if we want the country to prosper as a whole, the wealthy need to embrace paying tax instead of finding ways to hide it.
    "It's the nation's mindset that needs changing," she said. "It's a privilege to pay taxes. When it gets reinvested, everybody is lifted up."

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politi...XFKMRF53WWG44/
    I don't give a toss what any Green Party candidate says about taxes, they are all economically inept so why should I trust them?

  14. #834
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    With the increase in top tax rates will there be a shift to growth stocks away from those that pay divvies?

  15. #835
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    In the debate, Chloe Swarbrick from the Greens argued for the wealth tax, pointing out that wealth in property is created by taxes spent on infrastructure.
    I heard from a man this week who objected to the way a wealth tax would penalise people who bought a bach in Coromandel back when the road trip took six hours, and now owned valuable property but were not rich.
    But Swarbrick is right. Those baches are now worth a fortune in part because the roads, paid for by taxes, now make the journey so much quicker.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politi...3U4PAG56BF4UY/

    Shia Navot from Top, however, argued against the Greens' wealth tax, but not because wealth shouldn't be taxed. Top thinks there are better ways to do it.
    Perhaps they're right. Greens co-leader James Shaw has said many times, if other parties don't like their proposal, he would welcome them coming up with something better.
    Labour's David Parker, the trade minister, told an OECD conference this week there is a growing gap between the wealthy who can leverage their assets at very low interest rates, and the young and others without assets. "There is a problem with this status quo around the world," he said, "and we need a conversation about what the remedy might be."

  16. #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by lissica View Post
    Treasury states that the top 3% pay 24% of income tax. I'm paying more than my fair share.

    https://www.treasury.govt.nz/informa...ays-income-tax
    You are not paying more than your fair share.
    Your fair share takes into account your ability to pay, not what you pay in relation to anyone else.
    A fair tax system means that the costs of contributing to tax revenues are shared in a way that takes into account the ability to pay.

    From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" Karl Marx
    The phrase 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs' means, that ideally, each person should contribute to society according to his or her best efforts to do so, and should nonetheless receive from society what he or she requires to survive in relative health and safety.

  17. #837
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    You are not paying more than your fair share.
    Your fair share takes into account your ability to pay, not what you pay in relation to anyone else.
    A fair tax system means that the costs of contributing to tax revenues are shared in a way that takes into account the ability to pay.

    From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" Karl Marx
    The phrase 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs' means, that ideally, each person should contribute to society according to his or her best efforts to do so, and should nonetheless receive from society what he or she requires to survive in relative health and safety.
    A flat tax, where everyone pays the same percentage on their earnings is the fairest way in my view, Big earners pay a lot - low earners pay little. Yet the socialists scream that that is unfair, because the high earners can afford more, so argue for a progressive system. And that sums up the problem in a nutshell. 'Fair' is impossible to define, making it a pointless and senseless word in relation to tax given there is no acceptable agreement.

  18. #838
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    A flat tax, where everyone pays the same percentage on their earnings is the fairest way in my view, Big earners pay a lot - low earners pay little. Yet the socialists scream that that is unfair, because the high earners can afford more, so argue for a progressive system. And that sums up the problem in a nutshell. 'Fair' is impossible to define, making it a pointless and senseless word in relation to tax given there is no acceptable agreement.
    Absolutely a flat tax is the fairest by a country mile but will never happen under a Socialist/Communist Govt, their agenda will always be to take from those that have and redistribute to those that have not, the fact that many of the have not's don't want to get ahead if it takes self effort is of no consequence.

  19. #839
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    Quote Originally Posted by moka View Post
    But Swarbrick is right. Those baches are now worth a fortune in part because the roads, paid for by taxes, now make the journey so much quicker.
    That is one rabbit hole I would avoid going down. It will result in never-ending arguments.

    I do recall Twyford suggesting that land owners near major transport projects would be required to fund their development as they were viewed as disproportionately benefiting from them, so perhaps we will have no choice but to address this argument in the longer term.

  20. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaphod View Post
    I do recall Twyford suggesting that land owners near major transport projects would be required to fund their development as they were viewed as disproportionately benefiting from them, so perhaps we will have no choice but to address this argument in the longer term.
    That should definitely apply to the nice new 6 lane motorway carved through one's back yard.

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