Portfillio size? Whats normal for a personal self managed porfillio?

[krusty]

and what size isn't worth the diesel so to speak? Is it normal to want a certain minimum value or share number - or am I just someone whom likes ducks to line up too much? What is a good/normal/economic value of the average trade?

[percy]

I was told once there were very few people who had more than $50,000 worth of shares.If you look at trades you will see trades of a few hundred dollars to trades of hundreds of thousands dollars.One person with a portfolio of shares will manage it themselves even if it runs into millions,while another person will leave it to a broker to manage.I think most of us on sharetrader prefer to manage our own portfolio.I will often buy a small holding and add to it if I like the progress the company is making.

[CJ]

Krusty - what exactly are you trying to ask?

No point getting a pro to manage a $10k portofolio. Above say $100k if you are happy doing it yourself and think you can beat a pro after fees why not. I would question at what size does a personal portfolio become a job.

Re average trade size. I am trying to get mine at about $10k. Smaller than that, brokerage is not as efficent. Above that and I dont have the diversification that I want due to the size of my portfolio.

I would be interested in hearing those with larger trade sizes, if they struggle to fill orders on the NZX or do you have to keep to the top companies. Ie. does your order move the market or are you able to take advantage of attractive prices when they turn up. ie. if you wanted $100k of Resturant brands or Ryman would you have to do that over time to avoid pushing up the market.

[OldRider]

In my opinion trying to manage a portfolio under $20,000 would be an uneconomic waste of time. Worthwhile only if you enjoy it as a hobby, or are using it as a learning exercise to greater things. Life changes and over time my interest has waned until investing is now a tedious necessary discipline to preserve our assets and income, there are much more enjoyable things to do.

This was my advice to my children, until $20,000 of savings is reached split into four equal holdings
Listed NZ Property Company
List NZ Investment Co NZ shares
Listed ASX Investment Company ASX shares
Listed ASX Investment Company Foreign shares avoid unit trusts and advisors
Then add a further ASX Listed Investment Company in small to midcaps.
Then your own selections.

[Lizard]

Worthwhile only if you enjoy it as a hobby, or are using it as a learning exercise to greater things.

I wouldn't underestimate the value of using a small portfolio as a learning exercise. I started with $6000 and 2 share picks, but I have started nieces & nephews with as little as $300 spread over 3 shares (they get to pick from shares I hold in my own name and I allocate them the benefit of a few - so it is really more of a CFD arrangement for them and carried out on trust). In my view, the earlier they can learn about the benefits of investment and compounding, the better - and getting 3.7% at Rabodirect on-line is not going to get them terribly motivated.

As to what is "normal", I think it would be clear if we did a poll that there isn't a "normal". Although the amount available to invest will affect investment style - along with all the other factors that I would loosely group under the categories of Age, Personality and Circumstances (I guess I should find a "B" synonym for "personality" and then would have the basis for a book on the topic. )

[krusty]

My old broker use to offer and take me out to lunch at a flash place for free. Didn't know why. Do they run expense accounts or something? This personal portfolio is worth in excess of 100,000 - but not mega bucks - and returns f all in the pocket - about 6,000pa gross. My pc suggests the capital returns of between 294% down to -100%. I tend to 100% believe the negative result but tend to take the positive one with a grain of salt. I only find interest in the ones that produce results FPH, MFT, RYM, and BHP - some of the others have gone to hell in a hand basket.
Am I better off in seeking professional help again - but pay for their time in this new enlightened investing environment we live?
I have a pockc kiwisaver only because the 100% return from the government is not bad. The value of this one is half that of my partner, but she works full time, whereas I dont work and stick the minimum into the scheme - not bad for zero effort. I have a trust portfolio too.

[Lizard]

Krusty,

You sound more of a reluctant investor than an enthusiastic one - perhaps sensibly trying to avoid over-paying for poor advice. Personally, I have found most wealth advisory/management services come at a cost that is not recovered by their returns and most investors seemingly would be better off in term deposit. Maybe others have had better experiences.

However, of late, the cost in time of DIY has started to get more difficult for me to manage, so I also grapple with whether to throw the lot at someone else to manage while I get on with other things. Have noticed that over the years the one part that has done okay where I haven't micro-managed is the UK investment trusts - I have TEM held here and Fidelity European Values, JP Morgan European Smaller Coys, Aberdeen Asian Small Caps on the LSE and all have done okay, though don't provide much income.

My mother has given up and moved back to term deposits as broker no longer willing to advise her without having the management fees - which for very conservative portfolio is not really justified. I remember complaining once that one popular investment manager had managed to only return about 4.5% pa on a portfolio of funds for my father over 12 years and was told it was because he'd chosen a conservative fund - but reality was that term deposits had been as high as 9.5% over the years he'd invested.

[Halebop]

I can just manage to recall my first share purchases - but certainly not for the value of my portfolio. By my mid teens I'd built it to a useful figure thanks to the fairly crazy bull run in the mid 80's but the initial portfolio was a princely A$2,000 (As a 12 year old that felt like being a millionaire!). As others have suggested, portfolio size is not so much the issue as skill, desire and learning opportunities. For a small portfolio the key issues will be risk & volatility tolerance as you are more likely to be concentrated in fewer investments. I personally prefer a narrower range of investments and hands on management but getting the mix wrong will be more costly. On the flipside as "diversified" investors discovered during the GFC recently, a wide spread sometimes just means you lose a lot of money on a wide range of investments (and maybe even pay fees for the "benefit").

[JemT]

I started off my portfolio in 2009, buying up cheapish blue chip stocks after the financial crisis. I was not brave enough to jump straight in after the shares fell (i.e. buying FBU at ~$5), but it was a good start to my portfolio buying up high yielding stocks that have since risen between 10 and 20%. I do not like to spend less than $3,500 at once as a $30 brokerage fee eats into your return a little, however this is as much a hobby and a learning exercise as it is an investment. As of today my portfolio has 6 companies (two ASX listed, one NZX listed Aus co. and three NZX companies). I think invested capital is around $22,000.

I think one of the main drawbacks about a small portfolio is that it is hard to gain exposure to international shares. The transaction costs of these are quite a bit higher (from memory it was 30 pounds to trade on the FTSE).

As long as you trade no less than $3,000 at a time, and enjoy monitoring shares, then managing your portfolio is a good option. If you cannot afford to buy in lots of $3,000, then perhaps look at joining together with someone. That way you can make one purchase (incurring a $30 fee), then do an off market transfer at no cost for half of the shares.

It is quite an enjoyable hobby, and especially if you are young it can be beneficial as you can take greater risks (any capital you lose you can always earn back later in life through working), and of course it does tend to get you some respect. I have found that most people don't have a clue about shares so it is a good feeling to be able to help them out.

[RRR]

My purchases, nowadays, are between $3000-$5000 per transaction (buys that is) and I hardly sell (may be that is not a good thing from a trader point of view). My first purchase was worth 1K in 2008 - GMT for $1.39!. Portfolio has increased significantly since I first started and I count dividends $3500/year which is mostly reinvested where possible.
I will stay away from financial advisers/planners - I sought advice in 2009 from a financial adviser and the most frequent question was 'Do you know about UK investment trusts' and despite telling him that I am not interested in any managed funds or similar, he kept pushing me to invest in it. I said good bye to him the very next day by email.
My Mrs keep a watch nowadays of what I am doing and has instructed me not to invest in shares this year! She keeps reminding me about the PRC fiasco!