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  1. #11671
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    Whilst we are all aware of the recent downward trend of Heartland - my take is this is not specific to Heartland, with many shares significantly down - many got ahead of themselves including Heartland.

    There are also macro headwinds such as the Royal commission, with Heartland getting unfairly wrapped up in the negative bank sentiment. This will pass however is dragging on a bit.

    But if anything Heartland has made positive moves towards further growth - chasing the Reverse Mortgage market, which is even better with major competitors exiting this market.

    I surmise Heartland fore sore impending difficult conditions and has focused on chasing proven and accelerating growth sectors, hence the restructure.

    Discl - Holder and investor from the beginning.

    Each to their own.

  2. #11672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred_Rubble View Post
    Whilst we are all aware of the recent downward trend of Heartland - my take is this is not specific to Heartland, with many shares significantly down - many got ahead of themselves including Heartland.

    There are also macro headwinds such as the Royal commission, with Heartland getting unfairly wrapped up in the negative bank sentiment. This will pass however is dragging on a bit.

    But if anything Heartland has made positive moves towards further growth - chasing the Reverse Mortgage market, which is even better with major competitors exiting this market.

    I surmise Heartland fore sore impending difficult conditions and has focused on chasing proven and accelerating growth sectors, hence the restructure.

    Discl - Holder and investor from the beginning.

    Each to their own.
    Well recent research [latest out today] from NZ's two lending brokers agrees with you.
    So do I.
    We are "well positioned."

  3. #11673
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    Goodness gracious me ......HGH on a real roll

    Who knows might be a double headed head and shoulders pattern ....does such a beast exist

    Onwards and upwards ..possibly Aussie investors catching on the potential here
    “In a roaring bull market, knowledge is superfluous and experience is a handicap.”

    –Benjamin Graham”

  4. #11674
    Trying to get outta here
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Goodness gracious me ......HGH on a real roll

    Who knows might be a double headed head and shoulders pattern ....does such a beast exist

    Onwards and upwards ..possibly Aussie investors catching on the potential here
    End of month squaring up today could be having an effect.

  5. #11675
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Goodness gracious me ......HGH on a real roll

    Who knows might be a double headed head and shoulders pattern ....does such a beast exist

    Onwards and upwards ..possibly Aussie investors catching on the potential here
    Thats the beauty of a new ticker / HGH chart. Its well off the low and rapidly approaching all time high. Happy days.

  6. #11676
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    Dairy prices up a tad overnight ....HGH share price upna tad this week

    Spooky
    “In a roaring bull market, knowledge is superfluous and experience is a handicap.”

    –Benjamin Graham”

  7. #11677
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    Aust news report on the dangers of reverse mortgages. HGH is going to have to tread very carefully.

  8. #11678
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    Quote Originally Posted by Left field View Post
    Aust news report on the dangers of reverse mortgages. HGH is going to have to tread very carefully.
    Heartland have been treading very carefully.So carefully they are recommended by Consumer.
    To get a REL you have to have legal and family consent.
    Heartland has to explain fully what happens if you need to go into care,want to sell your house and move into a smaller house,etc, etc.
    The process takes a month or more, and that is one of the major reasons the major banks are exiting this sector.

  9. #11679
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    Interesting how few loans referenced in that article (small market for the size of Oz?) and the ASIC comments to avoid! No wonder the big banks shying away, they're experts at risk avoidance.

    I've not thought too much about Heartlands foray into the Oz market as I've been solely focused on monitoring the SP for a decent re entry price. But now I'm wondering whether it's becoming one of those 'ethical investment' questions.

    Much to ponder.

    To Percy, no need to respond, you're thoughts are well publicised.

    I'm interested though what others think. Is this a market and company worth investing in for the long term. I'm having doubts.

  10. #11680
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    Quote Originally Posted by percy View Post
    Heartland have been treading very carefully.So carefully they are recommended by Consumer.
    .
    Oh no - wheres that thread that was going to be set up on Consumer. I value Consumers view less than I do a Brokers

  11. #11681
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    It is easy to see why Banks want to avoid adverse publicity from relatives miffed that they have lost some inheritance.
    Before investing in Heartland I looked into their methods carefully.
    It appears entirely in keeping with current morals and ethics.
    The elderly have a right to take a loan out using house as security to enjoy life.
    They will not be evicted by heartland should a financial disaster eventuate

  12. #11682
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    I am surprised that well informed punters like some on here are questioning the ethics of the RELs.
    Bear with me while I share my recent experience. Over the last 3-4 weeks, I have been assisting a friend and his sister to deal with some financial pressures on their parents and themselves as a result. The father had a stroke about 10 years ago and is wheelchair bound. Apart from that, they are both in reasonably good health for people in their mid seventies.
    They struggle physically with him in a wheelchair and also struggle to make ends meet. In fact, they are supported financially by their 2 children with small weekly top ups just to make ends meet and to buy half decent groceries. Often baked beans on toast is all they can afford.This is difficult for the "children", neither of whom are high income earners. The car is small and unsuitable for an ageing lady to service her husband's needs. She would like new curtains and some rooms painted in their $650,000 fairly moderate, nice and warm home. They do not want to nor feel like they have to go to a retirement home.

    I know them well and find it sad that they have to live their twilight years like this, much harder than they deserve. So I discussed RELs with them(the children) and they asked me to get the info. I've been in contact with Heartland and they were extremely helpful and caring. At no stage did they try a hard sell. Quite to the contrary, they were very supportive, informative and very clear that they require family to buy in and legal advice sought.

    After a lot of discussion, I am pleased that the family have come to their own conclusion (I've not give any advice for or against, only explained the option) that they will apply for a loan to upgrade the car, get new curtains and possibly paint some rooms in the house. They may further seek a monthly or annual small top up. In my view, if they do this, it will make the twilight years of this lovely old couple MUCH more enjoyable and easier. Unless they both live beyond 105-110 years and continue spending as they are now, the effect on their equity is absolutely minor by any stretch of the imagination.
    Their children will also be relieved not having to continue their small top ups, which in reality is just buying their own heritage.

    So as fish says above, this situation and the solution provided by RELs, is "entirely in keeping with current morals and ethics" as far as I am concerned. Continuing as they're doing now is not.
    Last edited by iceman; 06-12-2018 at 09:05 AM.

  13. #11683
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    I agree iceman it is a perfectly valid financial tool for elderly of sound mind, and I find it offensive that the heirs are consulted or have any input into this decision.
    Case law clearly shows that any potential inheritance does not exist until death and can not be relied upon. Although of course there is the increasing notion of both equity and adequate provision that courts appear to be supporting within the will itself this is different from assuming an inheritance.
    With RELs the issue of sound mind is quite a difficult one. Cognitive impairment, senility, Alzheimers - what ever you describe them as , these are not binary switches where one day your competent and the next day you're not. They develop over sometimes long periods of time and ebb and flow along the way during which they may be able to make reasonable rational decisions sometimes , and at other times appear flummoxed by daily tasks.
    Competence can be complicated , exactly at the same time as these sorts of financial decisions arise. This makes the lending riskier but the standardisation of the terms will allow lenders to increasingly mitigate this risk

    I think RELs are a good business to be in for the future as many elderly are asset rich but cash poor. Maybe it is prudent to have family members involved as well, but I believe that is the borrowers decision alone.

    (My 86 year old Mum has a REL on her property in QLD which I fully supported her taking out)
    Last edited by peat; 05-12-2018 at 11:03 PM.
    For clarity, nothing I say is advice....

  14. #11684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baa_Baa View Post
    But now I'm wondering whether it's becoming one of those 'ethical investment' questions.
    What ethical issues concern you?

    I see none - indeed teh opposite.

    As we go through life we ought to either build up capital in a bank account (or other liquid assets), build up capital in our own property (by aiming to be mortgage free) or a mix of both This way we have a better way of enjoying life post working days.

    All a REL is doing is releasing capital that teh home owner has created over time. Why should they not use it in later life? They cant take it with them to teh grave and relatives should have no expectation of getting their mitt on it - in the same way they ought not think they have free access to cash in a bank account.

    I think RELs are great idea. Though I dont see why a bank cant just extend a mortgage till death. I presume they simply dont want to be involved in that level of paper work

    There is no reason at all for a person with equity in their home to live a financially stressed life. As people age their financial demands arent great relative to potential held equity. In icemans example a nice new set of curtains and newly painted rooms isn't going to take much out of the house equity. In fact these purchase may actually add value to the home. If these folks wanted to push the boat out they could probably get some doors widened and make sure their are enough handrails. Maybe even one of those uppy/downy beds. Ways to make life easier for both. HGH (in my view) are very conservative with teh amount they will lend on a $650,000 property - it was me I'd be extending the limit. Maybe that is for years to come.

    Disc. Disappointed holder of HGH and still carrying a paper loss

  15. #11685
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    In posting the above article all I was alluding too was that Aust seems to have been rife with shonky REL and this could bite HGH.

    I was NOT implying that HGH are guilty of shonky REL practice. Indeed if you read the article, much of the difficulty in this case was that the person making the loan was not required to take independent legal advice. I understand HGH are strong on this point and that is why they get Consumer NZ's ethical ranking. In this I agree with Percy that HGH are setting new, high standards in REL and that is their strength.

    However, the bad actions of a few (other lenders) can muddy the waters.....

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