Occupy Wall Street protests

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Fungus Pudding it is no use opening a new business unless you can find customers with money to purchase from them. So without money to flow up from the bottom there will be no trickle down from the top.

[fungus pudding]

Fungus Pudding it is no use opening a new business unless you can find customers with money to purchase from them. So without money to flow up from the bottom there will be no trickle down from the top.

And where, pray tell, do these customers get their spending money from? Obviously we are all part of the circle, but to claim money doesn't trickle down assumes those who earn big dough lock it in a cupboard, or only ever spend it amongst the equally wealthy. The truth is those who have more money, spend more money. 'No trickle down' is just a catch-cry of cliche lovers.

[Aaron]

Like it or not, money and incomes do trickle down.

I beg to differ. If the statistics from belgarion earlier in the thread are correct it would indicate the wealth doesn't trickle very far from the top 1% in America. In fact with the growing disparity in wealth you could conclude that society is working more like a trickle up system.

And before we move onto the politics of greed and envy arguement I don't depise people for being wealthy I even aspire to that goal one day myself (even if we had a capital gains tax i would still look to invest). I just think that rather than having ever more opulent lifestyles and mansions etc maybe society could ask them to chip in a bit more to help pay for education, health etc.

if you still believe in trickle down I think your kidding yourself. People are too selfish. Myself included.

[Hoop]

I beg to differ. If the statistics from belgarion earlier in the thread are correct it would indicate the wealth doesn't trickle very far from the top 1% in America. In fact with the growing disparity in wealth you could conclude that society is working more like a trickle up system.

And before we move onto the politics of greed and envy arguement I don't depise people for being wealthy I even aspire to that goal one day myself (even if we had a capital gains tax i would still look to invest). I just think that rather than having ever more opulent lifestyles and mansions etc maybe society could ask them to chip in a bit more to help pay for education, health etc.

if you still believe in trickle down I think your kidding yourself. People are too selfish. Myself included.

Trickle down effect is time sensitive..(a lagging event) like a tap turned off but the water still runs down your concrete driveway.

The tap got turned down but not completely off when the world's money started to evaporate in 2008-2009....the workers on the street didn't grizzle back then because it didn't effect them at that time..many said bloody good job that many of the filthy rich companies (banks?) and individuals alike got caught up in the bear downturn and lost their large amounts of capital.....

.....well that effect of lost capital has now trickled down to the end user....The flow has been boosted by Govts and large orgainisations attempts through borrowed money to pay unemployment insurance, keep people in work, etc which puts economic pressure on the whole system.

The worse thing is the lag effect...Much of the world is in recovery mode and large profits are once again being made and the "filthy rich" are gaining back their loses + more on top..........much to the disgust of the end trickler.

The tap is back on now but that water hasn't trickled down to the bottom of the driveway yet.

How much is a trickle??? ...with the lessened flow atm.. it's still a gusher.

A small part of that "trickle is due to Philanthrophy....In the USA alone Givers in 2009 gave equivalent to $1400 for each American man women and child ...$303 billion a year 1.
1......Ref:..The National Philanthropic Trust Statistics

Philanthropy is alive and well but we as Joe Public don't hear about it as most of these people elect to stay out of the limelight.
65% of the US holdholds donate to charity 1........It gives you the warm fuzzies...eh...that not anyone in the world is selfish and
greedy


I think too much money resides in the top of the pyramid atm and like all cyclic events it is due to adjust downwards once again.

I agree some people get obscene amounts of money and often that is factored into the price you pay for the product...

Just think..that person in the picture bluetacked to your teenaged daughters wall is probably earning more money through grossly overpriced products than any Wall St banker.

[Halebop]

I think trickle down versus trickle up is a chiken and egg argument that will generally fall between political divides. What is manifestly clear is that the accumulation of capital begets more of the same. If I now make $100m a year, even spending $10m on a lavish lifestyle leaves $90m to be deployed, much of which no doubt gets invested. This ensures the wealthy get wealthier and has nothing to do with politics or philosophy - it's simple math and the utility value of money.

If we now imagine a tax system that favours capital accumulation over labour, the divide between haves and have nots can easily be contrasted... and exploited socially and politically.

I do suspect that considering a little give now could pre-empt a lot of take later. Every country has different levers and anomalies but I suspect most tax labour more heavily than capital.

[ananda77]

Occupy Wall St – Systemic Change Please
October 7, 2011
By Michael Hudson
http://michael-hudson.com/2011/10/oc...change-please/

... It’s much bigger than that. There’s an awareness that the whole financial system has been dysfunctional. And the other similar demonstrations that are occurring abroad, from Iceland to Greece, are that the government is in the hands of the financial lobbyists. That’s why it’s called Occupy Wall Street, because Wall Street is what essentially has bought the electoral campaigns and bought the Obama administration.

Rolling Back the Progressive Era: How Bankers are using the Debt Crisis to welcome in the Financial Road to Serfdom
June 14, 2011
By Michael Hudson
http://michael-hudson.com/2011/06/ro...ogressive-era/

...What is to be reversed is the “modern” agenda. The aim a century ago was to mobilize the Industrial Revolution’s soaring productivity and technology to raise living standards and use progressive taxation, public regulation, central banking and financial reform to distribute wealth fairly and make societies more equal. Today’s financial aim is the opposite: to concentrate wealth at the top of the economic pyramid and lower labor’s returns. High finance loves low wages.

Kind Regards

[ananda77]

Kind Regards

[westerly]

[QUOTE=Lizard;359116]Maybe I am obtuse, but I fail to see how what we have now could be a worse starting point for a better society than years of militancy, fear, oppression and bloodshed.

But don't tell me that the only option for equality is a reign of terror before at least trying to use the levers that democracy provides. QUOTE]


France, Russia, etc. did not have democracy at the time of their revolutions. But N.Z. had democracy during the great depression which did not prevent the Queen St. riots or the disturbances during the 1950 waterfront strike. If you have large numbers of unemployed or lowly paid workers who rightly or wrongly perceive injustice there will be social unrest.
The USA has 46 million below the poverty line.

Westerly

[JBmurc]

Will only get worse in 2012 IMHO

[winner69]

Kind Regards

As Halebop pointed out this is a generational issue - a generation that has become rich (or at least well off) mainly from rising assets prices (mainly housing) v a generation that either borrowed heavily to buy property at the peak of the cycle or cant afford their own home .... and (rightfully) blaming the bankers and fianaciers for all this - people who have never made any tangible stuff in their life and as such perceived to be greedy and corrupt as they keep on dreaming up schemes to squeeze the last dollar out of the 'poor'

The 1% and the 99% is a dramatic sideshow - at the root of the unrest(?) is a generation approaching their peak earnings stage in life struggling heavily indebted seeing a generation ahead of them being so better off than them .... and not really being prepared to assist. That well (better) off generation wants to keep their riches and still expect the government (by default the younger generation) to continue with pensions and helthcare etc.

The young chick and her billboard is of that younger generation but she was lucky to get some of those riches - but good on her for being willing to share her riches - her desire for 'equality' is what her generation want

It's just that the older better off generation aren't prepared to do that. (maybe its too hard to guess what generation I fall into)

And of course it is the greedy corrupt super rich that are the really the cause for all the worlds problems this so lets target them - they deserve their comuppance big time