If National wins ...

[macduffy]

Hi Macduff, well the Guardian is only one source (however one of the better media outlets around) and plenty of others, including the group that has released the documents is suggesting NZ has had a reasonable part to play in all this. Its early days and NZ will be one of many countries that are no doubt caught up in an unravelling scandal that has already seen one prime minister resign and pressure on another, being Cameron.
The fact is that NZ does not insist on the same level of scrutiny that our peer nations do. Its being suggested that NZ has been identified as a soft target by those wanting to set up these offshore trusts. Sure we may not be waiving a tax haven banner like the Cayman Islands, however we may only be one notch down.
One thing I am sure of, much more will come of this.
I have been waiting for Winston Peters to say the line...
This is not the wine box, its the whole bloody vineyard! LOL

Fair enough, Daytr. My point though, was that it would be straining things somewhat to suggest that NZ could take a leading position, as it did in the apartheid issue, in stamping out tax havens around the world. Sure, the All Blacks rule, Helen Clark is (almost) universally admired, and we have a good reputation in many fields - but to suggest that the world will sit up, take notice and follow our lead - whatever it might be in this matter - while there are much bigger targets in the UK, Iceland, Russia etc taking the spotlight, is wishful thinking in my opinion.

[elZorro]

Fair enough, Daytr. My point though, was that it would be straining things somewhat to suggest that NZ could take a leading position, as it did in the apartheid issue, in stamping out tax havens around the world. Sure, the All Blacks rule, Helen Clark is (almost) universally admired, and we have a good reputation in many fields - but to suggest that the world will sit up, take notice and follow our lead - whatever it might be in this matter - while there are much bigger targets in the UK, Iceland, Russia etc taking the spotlight, is wishful thinking in my opinion.

MacDuffy, perhaps you could try a bit of research here. I had a feeling that Labour wouldn't have left a tax haven in place in 2008. Sure enough, they didn't.

When Labour modified the overseas trust rules in 2008, they left a PIE fund or effective interest rate for foreign owned trusts, of 28% tax. This was far from a tax haven, and I don't think there would have been much money flowing into this area at all. But, it had established a mechanism for something else.

2008, and on the back of good work by Crosby-Textor and accompanying BS, National got back in power. By 2010 John Key was openly stating that he wanted the tax rate on these foreign trusts changed. The new tax rate he wanted was 0%. In other words, it was tax-free, nil, no tax at all. He sent a small think-tank off to produce a report that agreed with him, and then they quietly, somehow, snuck it in as a law change in September 2011.

Edit: Labour, the Greens, NZ First opposed the bill, but didn't have the numbers by a long way.

Of course we can now see that enormous amounts of funds have flooded in, some of which have propped up the GDP figures indirectly, and also funded the National Party with donations I'm sure. And John Key had the cheek to say the rules hadn't changed since the Clark Government. One big rule did change. From a sensible tax rate, to none at all. That's the hypocrisy and utter lying that National should be known for, by now.

Don't believe anything John Key says without checking up on it, that's my advice. We are now a tax haven, no doubt about that.

[westerly]

Imagine what the loss would have been if the Government had borrowed more to invest into the Superfund, like you and your party wanted

EZ are you serious when you say there was nothing wrong with any of Labour's policies at the last election ? Have you forgotten that nearly 3/4 of voters voted against it ?

Yeah, they dropped 3.54%. Considering the annual return since inception is 9.05% perhaps they are not doing so bad.
And for some unknown reason they pay tax, $2.9b over the last 5 years. John an Bill holding out their hands again but contributing nothing.
The fund has averaged nearly 11% over the last 5 years, perhaps National should have invested more instead of zero.

westerly

[elZorro]

Yeah, they dropped 3.54%. Considering the annual return since inception is 9.05% perhaps they are not doing so bad.
And for some unknown reason they pay tax, $2.9b over the last 5 years. John an Bill holding out their hands again but contributing nothing.
The fund has averaged nearly 11% over the last 5 years, perhaps National should have invested more instead of zero.

westerly

Yes, the Nats were lucky ahead of the GFC that Labour left them those good investment funds, had paid off most of the external debt, and had good policy settings that, by and large, had to be left in place. Even now, Labour and other lobbyists are forcing National to make small concessions in policy that make sense. But that hasn't stopped National from selling down assets, defraying costs, pruning back govt departments, experimenting badly with privatisation, and the usual right-wing tricks of playing with the statistics. But one of the worst ideas must have been John's uncunning plan to turn NZ into a Tax Haven. You arrogant sod, John.

We should all be marching on Parliament about this. John can't get away with letting one person carry out a study on it. We won't forget this, it won't get swept under the carpet.

[elZorro]

Here's John Key being grilled by Guyon Espiner on RadioNZ this morning, about our tax haven. He's certainly on the back foot, wish we had video of this.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/pr...-panama-papers

All of a sudden, he doesn't seem to know too much about the trusts and how they work. He's certainly not going to show us his tax records though. The last question was "have you used any trusts in countries that might be considered tax havens?" to which he replied timidly through the phone.."I don't believe so". Guyon quickly pointed out that the answer wasn't a 'no'.

I'm most disappointed Guyon didn't ask the other obvious question. Why did he instigate the change in the tax rate on these foreign-owned trusts from 28% to.. 0%? In other words, he applied no tax. John Key set up our status as a Tax Haven.

John Key's stuck in this right up to his neck, maybe we can get him booted out over it.

[iceman]

Yeah, they dropped 3.54%. Considering the annual return since inception is 9.05% perhaps they are not doing so bad.
And for some unknown reason they pay tax, $2.9b over the last 5 years. John an Bill holding out their hands again but contributing nothing.
The fund has averaged nearly 11% over the last 5 years, perhaps National should have invested more instead of zero.

westerly

The point I was making is that posters like you and EZ complain about Key/English beings stupid not to borrow money to invest in the Superfund and then also complain and blame them when the Fund loses money, which of course it will do on occasions despite being very well managed.
It is this sort of constant negative rubbish that has turned voters off Labour and sadly Labour doesn´t understand it.
They have been flat out releasing policy ideas recently, such as legislating interest rates, free tertiary education, universal benefits, no TPP, you name it. But noone is listening and they continue to go down in the polls with Little just above margin of error as preferred PM.

But like EZ keeps reminding us, they have good policy and good people so no need to change anything. Just wait for NZ to wake up and realise their brilliance. Doh

[elZorro]

The point I was making is that posters like you and EZ complain about Key/English beings stupid not to borrow money to invest in the Superfund and then also complain and blame them when the Fund loses money, which of course it will do on occasions despite being very well managed.
It is this sort of constant negative rubbish that has turned voters off Labour and sadly Labour doesn´t understand it.
They have been flat out releasing policy ideas recently, such as legislating interest rates, free tertiary education, universal benefits, no TPP, you name it. But noone is listening and they continue to go down in the polls with Little just above margin of error as preferred PM.

But like EZ keeps reminding us, they have good policy and good people so no need to change anything. Just wait for NZ to wake up and realise their brilliance. Doh

Great stuff, Iceman. All you're doing is poking the borax at Labour, and anyone who might vote Labour. I see you haven't leapt to the defence of John Key over HavenGate, or whatever it'll be called. That's because it's indefensible. If we find out for sure that JK has been dodging tax, (I bet he has) just like all his mates, you'd probably still vote National, you're that blinkered.

John Key and National are only staying in power through these elections because they have more cash, and most people don't ask any real questions about politicians.

[winner69]

Here's John Key being grilled by Guyon Espiner on RadioNZ this morning, about our tax haven. He's certainly on the back foot, wish we had video of this.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/pr...-panama-papers

All of a sudden, he doesn't seem to know too much about the trusts and how they work. He's certainly not going to show us his tax records though. The last question was "have you used any trusts in countries that might be considered tax havens?" to which he replied timidly through the phone.."I don't believe so". Guyon quickly pointed out that the answer wasn't a 'no'.

I'm most disappointed Guyon didn't ask the other obvious question. Why did he instigate the change in the tax rate on these foreign-owned trusts from 28% to.. 0%? In other words, he applied no tax. John Key set up our status as a Tax Haven.

John Key's stuck in this right up to his neck, maybe we can get him booted out over it.

John Key's foreign 'bosses' might be getting a bit worried eh EZ

They will not be pleased - seeing he has done so well for so long

[neopoleII]

talking about taxes etc..... whats up with this?
""Tax exemption
Salaries, grants and allowances paid by the United Nations are normally exempt from income tax.""

https://careers.un.org/lbw/home.aspx?viewtype=SAL

makes you wonder where and how helen is depositing her salary.
as for trusts....... i have always disliked them....... they seem like a nether world entity that exists but are untouchable for all the wrong reasons in my opinion.
If you cant stand behind your name or next to your partner......... with trust.... then you need to hide or defend with a nether world trust.
and it seems that all governments support trusts.....

[elZorro]

talking about taxes etc..... whats up with this?
""Tax exemption
Salaries, grants and allowances paid by the United Nations are normally exempt from income tax.""

https://careers.un.org/lbw/home.aspx?viewtype=SAL

makes you wonder where and how helen is depositing her salary.
as for trusts....... i have always disliked them....... they seem like a nether world entity that exists but are untouchable for all the wrong reasons in my opinion.
If you cant stand behind your name or next to your partner......... with trust.... then you need to hide or defend with a nether world trust.
and it seems that all governments support trusts.....

I don't like trusts either, accountants seem to like them, so that's not a great recommendation is it? I believe in standing by your good name and your spouse, too.

Regarding a post at the UN, I didn't know that generally their salaries are exempt from tax. The difference there is that Helen Clark applied for a job and won it, despite fierce competition. All of those rules and perks were laid out already, she accepted the terms.

However, John Key worked his way up to be the National Party leader within a short period of time, didn't do his groundwork (so obvious now) and has become PM. It's not a highly paid job, the hours are long, and he's supposed to pay tax on his income in NZ. He could behave like many ministers before him, and buy farms, forestry blocks, houses, commercial buildings etc, thus defraying his income with interest and trying to ensure a net capital gain over the period, until he steps down. John's more likely to be playing the markets, and he won't want to be doing that openly. A foreign trust or overseas vehicle would be perfect for that. Hence, IMO, the extreme evasion with the questioning from Guyon.