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  1. #1051
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    What socialists have always missed is that the effort to evenly redistribute the cake ends in reducing the size of the cake due to disincentives, evasion, demoralisation etc and a vastly bloated and inefficient and corrupt bureaucracy to try to achieve this redistribution.
    What the centre right strives for is an expansion of the cake so that all can have a larger slice.

  2. #1052
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major von Tempsky View Post
    What socialists have always missed is that the effort to evenly redistribute the cake ends in reducing the size of the cake due to disincentives, evasion, demoralisation etc and a vastly bloated and inefficient and corrupt bureaucracy to try to achieve this redistribution.
    What the centre right strives for is an expansion of the cake so that all can have a larger slice.
    Do you really believe that MVT? How does the cake expand when the economy is nothing more than energy (the lower the cost, the stronger the economy). So here we are in an energy-constrained world. Maui is just about finished, our drills are mostly dead ends, we import most of our transport fuels, shipping costs are getting worse, coal is cheap but too risky long term, and our hydro storage is limited. Our farmers work on a 0.04% energy efficiency, lucky for them the energy inputs are mostly free.

    I put it to you that National's reason for being is not to prove the trickle-down theory works, they know it doesn't. It is to look after the top 1% that are in Fred114's video. If you are in that 1%, then great, vote for National and bend our ears about it. if you are working towards getting into the top 1%, then voting for another party (except ACT) will help that process.

  3. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major von Tempsky View Post
    What socialists have always missed is that the effort to evenly redistribute the cake ends in reducing the size of the cake due to disincentives, evasion, demoralisation etc and a vastly bloated and inefficient and corrupt bureaucracy to try to achieve this redistribution.
    What the centre right strives for is an expansion of the cake so that all can have a larger slice.
    I totally agree MVT. Moving on:
    Maui is not "just about finished" , its got YEARS to go.
    NZ, Norway,Chile, Iceland and a few other countries have abundant energy of geo-thermal , water and wind. These countries (and a few more) will lead the World in energy efficiency over the next 2-3 decades.

    "our farmers work on 0.04 % energy" Are you joking, Probably the most efficient farmers ithe World. Explain yourself please !

    I am nowhere near the "1%"you talk about in your Chaves like rant EZ and in fact I don't think any Kiwis would fit into that profile. I would love Kiwis to be in there but there are too many negative people like you in NZ for that ever to happen

  4. #1054
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    Quote Originally Posted by iceman View Post
    I totally agree MVT. Moving on:
    Maui is not "just about finished" , its got YEARS to go.
    NZ, Norway,Chile, Iceland and a few other countries have abundant energy of geo-thermal , water and wind. These countries (and a few more) will lead the World in energy efficiency over the next 2-3 decades.

    "our farmers work on 0.04 % energy" Are you joking, Probably the most efficient farmers ithe World. Explain yourself please !

    I am nowhere near the "1%"you talk about in your Chaves like rant EZ and in fact I don't think any Kiwis would fit into that profile. I would love Kiwis to be in there but there are too many negative people like you in NZ for that ever to happen
    Iceman, in response: it wasn't a rant, I don't follow Hugo Chavez (see info below), I'm not a rabid socialist as you suggest. I'm not a negative person either, like yourself I'm an exporter of a portion of output, but I get frustrated when I see National undoing the good policy that Labour had installed during their last term. I genuinely liked the direction of NZ back then.

    If there is a larger slice to be had in NZ, we'll have to wrest it off some other country. It's unlikely a whole lot of cheap energy will turn up over here. So R&D becomes important, and if you can show me that National has helped this process along, rather than tried to kill it off, then I'd like to see it.

    Maui was found in the 60s-70s, an internationally big gas field. To get at the smaller portion of oil, the govt set up take or pay agreements for the gas, to get it used up and increase the oil offtake. We converted clapped out cars to CNG, on which they ran poorly. We ran the gas to Huntly and used it for electricity at 30% efficiency. Huntly used a lot of that gas up, and the easiest gas has gone, along with most of the oil. Maui might have a few years left, it had a reprieve as it was meant to be shut down by now. But it's a shadow of its former self.

    I agree that we need to look harder at things like solar energy, geothermal, wind, biofuels. Anything that is more carbon neutral. Again , some govt R&D in that direction would be refreshing. Doubt if we'll ever see National party hacks thinking like that though.

    I'm afraid those figures about the energy efficiency of farming are about right. Since the Sun has enormous energy of up to 1kW per square metre in full sun in summer, you can look at figures for NZ and see that each hectare on a farm receives millions of dollars of energy in a given year. $3-4 million of energy, and farmers manage $3000 of profit per hectare if they have a good dairying year, a lot less for most farmers.

    The reason for this is that our major crop (rye/clover etc) is about 2% efficient at converting the sun to animal energy, and the animals we send out to crop the grass are also about 2% efficient (on average). There is the number, and if you ask Agresearch, they'll have to confirm it. It's the same figure worldwide, but perhaps NZ is a bit better than average. It's still really low.

    Solar panels (PV) are getting so cheap that some of the poor performing hillsides facing North should instead be generating raw electricity, or heating vast salt vats with mirrors. Even a PV panel is 20% efficient, it beats farming by a long way. Farmers continue to buy their electricity off the grid instead of generating their own. They'll figure it out soon enough.

    From Wikipedia, about Chavez:

    Although he publicly used strong revolutionary rhetoric from the beginning of his presidency, the Chávez government's initial policies were moderate, capitalist and centre-left, having much in common with those of contemporary Latin American leftists like Brazil's president Lula da Silva.[135][136] Chávez initially believed that capitalism was still a valid economic model for Venezuela, but that it would have to be Rhenish capitalism or the Third Way that would be followed rather than the neoliberalism which had been implemented under former governments with the encouragement of the United States.[137] He followed the economic guidelines recommended by the International Monetary Fund and continued to encourage foreign corporations to invest in Venezuela,[138] even visiting the New York Stock Exchange in the United States in an attempt to convince wealthy investors to do so.[139][140] To increase his visibility abroad, Chávez spent fifty-two days of his first year as president outside of Venezuela, travelling the world meeting various national leaders, such as American President Bill Clinton, Governor of Texas George W. Bush and Chinese Premier Jiang Zemin.[141]
    Whilst he was remaining fiscally conservative, he introduced measures in an attempt to alleviate the poverty of the Venezuelan working class. Chávez immediately set into motion a social welfare program called Plan Bolívar 2000, which he organised to begin on 27 February 1999, the tenth anniversary of the Caracazo massacre. Costing $113,000,000, Plan Bolívar 2000 involved 70,000 army officers going out into the streets of Venezuela where they would repair roads and hospitals, offer free medical care and vaccinations, and sell food at cheap prices.[142][143][144] Chávez himself described the Plan by saying that "Ten years ago we came to massacre the people. Now we are going to fill them with love. Go and comb the land, search out and destroy poverty and death. We are going to fill them with love instead of lead."[145] In order to explain his latest thoughts and plans to the Venezuelan people, in May he also launched his own Sunday morning radio show, Aló Presidente (Hello, President), on the state radio network, as well as a Thursday night television show, De Frente con el Presidente (Face to Face with the President). He followed this with his own newspaper, El Correo del Presidente (The President's Post), founded in July, for which he acted as editor-in-chief, but which was later shut amidst accusations of corruption in its management.[146] In his television and radio shows, he answered calls from citizens, discussed his latest policies, sung songs and told jokes, making it unique not only in Latin America but the entire world.[147]
    Last edited by elZorro; 08-03-2013 at 06:41 AM.

  5. #1055
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    Hmmm, hmmm, a blow for the devoted admirers of that devoted socialist today - front page of today's Press - Chavez's fortune increased to and by $2 billion since he became President in 1999. Good piece of socialist work that ;-)

    Oh and PtC I can't let your assumption tamely glide past that Cristina Fernandez-Kirchner and Peronism are "rightwing"! The financial media would be rolling around laughing! The main thing about Peronism is nationalism but the unions are all Peronista and the government has nationalised umpteen companies. Rather intriguing is that Cristina has appointed one of her mates as Government Statistician in effect and he makes what are obviously bullsh*t announcements on what the rate of inflation is, horribly understated, and, get this, anyone who disputes it with other data is clapped in prison! Ha! ha! ha! That's socialism for you - remember "1984" and "Animal Farm"?

  6. #1056
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    Major von Temspsky go back and read the post I take it you are replying to. You are giving the impression that you are so ill educated that you cannot understand that there are as many if not more right wing dill brain politicians as left wing politicians. Or should I say brainwashed.
    Possum The Cat

  7. #1057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major von Tempsky View Post
    Hmmm, hmmm, a blow for the devoted admirers of that devoted socialist today - front page of today's Press - Chavez's fortune increased to and by $2 billion since he became President in 1999. Good piece of socialist work that ;-)

    Oh and PtC I can't let your assumption tamely glide past that Cristina Fernandez-Kirchner and Peronism are "rightwing"! The financial media would be rolling around laughing! The main thing about Peronism is nationalism but the unions are all Peronista and the government has nationalised umpteen companies. Rather intriguing is that Cristina has appointed one of her mates as Government Statistician in effect and he makes what are obviously bullsh*t announcements on what the rate of inflation is, horribly understated, and, get this, anyone who disputes it with other data is clapped in prison! Ha! ha! ha! That's socialism for you - remember "1984" and "Animal Farm"?
    I have been doing business in Argentina for a few years. Under Cristina, who is an avid socialist, it has become nearly impossible to do business there. Rampant inflation of around 25-30% (real, not Government statistics), AR$ FROZEN at around US$1 =AR$ 4.5 while the real value on the black market is more like 7. This is killing exporters. Corruption higher than ever before with any company directors that speak out shut down by the tax department, normally within 48hrs of speaking against the Government. Union leaders sent to football World Cup, paid for by Government. Unions going to peoples homes to threaten their families if they do not agree with the militant approach by nearly all Unions. I could go on and on but please don't get me started. Need to chill out in beautiful NZ before heading to Argentina on Tuesday, when the "fun" starts !
    Last edited by iceman; 08-03-2013 at 12:26 PM. Reason: spelling

  8. #1058
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    As I was saying before - You dont't know how lucky you are, boy - in a John Key led New Zealand.

  9. #1059
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    Barf........

  10. #1060
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    Almost there on the shortening of posts EZ...one less word ( you can leave the full stops if you like..that way we'll know its you) and we have achieved perfection.
    Quote Originally Posted by elZorro View Post
    Barf........

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