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  1. #9961
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    Quote Originally Posted by elZorro View Post
    Wikipedia says that Roger Douglas changed his tune in the leadup to the 1984 elections quite a lot, and attributed the new thinking to a Treasury paper and Treasury advisors.
    Douglas outlined his ideas in his book well before Lange became leader.

  2. #9962
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    Lange was a lawyer and didn't have a clue about economics, as also as you can see above neither did Palmer, another lawyer. Hey Presto, Roger Douglas had some economic ideas and policies so Lange grabbed it with both hands. Lange didn't get re-elected, the electorate said, hey we need to give Roger Douglas a chance to complete his program and Lange was carried back in on Roger Douglas' coattails.
    The state of Palmer's ignorance was such that he opposed devaluation!
    If NZ hadn't had a floating dollar over the last year or so, and a flexible economy, we wouldn't have been able to cope with the dairy crisis, it would have been off with cap in hand and begging bowl to the IMF.

  3. #9963
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    FP and MVT have destroyed my argument, or have they? Treasury put those ideas together, not Douglas, and the ideas in turn came from neoliberal think-tanks and suchlike based in Chicago, USA. Treasury officials spent time there, their economists at the time were firmly in this camp.

    https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/2321

  4. #9964
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    Quote Originally Posted by elZorro View Post
    FP and MVT have destroyed my argument, or have they? Treasury put those ideas together, not Douglas, and the ideas in turn came from neoliberal think-tanks and suchlike based in Chicago, USA. Treasury officials spent time there, their economists at the time were firmly in this camp.

    https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/2321
    Douglas published his book in 1980; four years before his appointment as Finance minister. Although not in policy form it did signal his thoughts. His contribution to NZ is probably the major achievement of any politician of the last 70 odd years; but don't read it. Keep thinking Treasury dragged him down the path he followed.

  5. #9965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major von Tempsky View Post
    Lange was a lawyer and didn't have a clue about economics, as also as you can see above neither did Palmer, another lawyer. Hey Presto, Roger Douglas had some economic ideas and policies so Lange grabbed it with both hands. Lange didn't get re-elected, the electorate said, hey we need to give Roger Douglas a chance to complete his program and Lange was carried back in on Roger Douglas' coattails.
    The state of Palmer's ignorance was such that he opposed devaluation!
    If NZ hadn't had a floating dollar over the last year or so, and a flexible economy, we wouldn't have been able to cope with the dairy crisis, it would have been off with cap in hand and begging bowl to the IMF.
    I always find it intriguing that you are dismissive of any Labour politician regarding their academic credentials. He " was a lawyer" etc. I note you conveniently ignore that Bill English has an English Literature degree and Steven Joyce has a degree in Zoology.

  6. #9966
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daytr View Post
    Well MVT claims to be an economist, but has been caught out on many occasions on some pretty basic economic history and theorists that any economist should know. I must admit if was to dream up a avatar I think it would be more exciting than an economist.

    There has been some discussion on here re tax avoidance. Seems NZ is right up there in regards tax havens and right under the nose of the government.
    Thank god for leaks otherwise we would never uncover these things .

    Again National caught napping & we are on the UN security council for gawds sake!

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/business/indust...nting-scandals
    Have to agree on this one. NZ trusts with overseas settlors have been a nice little earner for some members of the legal profession for a couple of decades now and it is time that the non-transparency of these trusts was done away with. Peter Dunne as Minister of Revenue resisted calls to change this state of affairs a few years ago and just said it wasn't a problem and there was no need to change anything. It's not a good look and makes us look flaky.

  7. #9967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt Pepper View Post
    I always find it intriguing that you are dismissive of any Labour politician regarding their academic credentials. He " was a lawyer" etc. I note you conveniently ignore that Bill English has an English Literature degree and Steven Joyce has a degree in Zoology.
    Totally up the buhoi.

    Nowhere did I challenge Lange's and Palmer's academic qualifications, that's a figment of Pepper's imagination, just because he WISHES I said it, or even thought it, does not mean I did, in fact I didn't. What I was challenging was his expertise in a field totally different from his own.

    Some people can master a different field through sufficient reading and experience, Lange and Palmer obviously couldn't. Another one who couldn't was Robert Muldoon, he got a conceded wartime troops pass in the Economics 1 part of an accounting qualification, thought he was a brilliant economist, said it was his hobby, and then proceeded to demonstrate he was a dunce and had an anti Midas touch. He was the most left wing Minister of Finance in practice since the Labour Government of the 1930's and 1940s. He also kept overruling Treasury because he thought he knew better than Treasury. Another notable on the list is Noam Chomsky who is qualified in linguistics and a total duffer in economics. Similarly Rand Paul and his father in the US.

    I expect the other answer to your comment is that Bill English and Steven Joyce are sufficiently modest and realistic to take advice from Treasury and MBIE and colleagues who do have the relevant qualifications and experience.

    Roger Douglas had part of an accounting degree, but he did have an open mind so he could see what wasn't working and he read widely and did his homework.

  8. #9968
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major von Tempsky View Post
    Totally up the buhoi.

    Nowhere did I challenge Lange's and Palmer's academic qualifications, that's a figment of Pepper's imagination, just because he WISHES I said it, or even thought it, does not mean I did, in fact I didn't. What I was challenging was his expertise in a field totally different from his own.

    Some people can master a different field through sufficient reading and experience, Lange and Palmer obviously couldn't. Another one who couldn't was Robert Muldoon, he got a conceded wartime troops pass in the Economics 1 part of an accounting qualification, thought he was a brilliant economist, said it was his hobby, and then proceeded to demonstrate he was a dunce and had an anti Midas touch. He was the most left wing Minister of Finance in practice since the Labour Government of the 1930's and 1940s. He also kept overruling Treasury because he thought he knew better than Treasury. Another notable on the list is Noam Chomsky who is qualified in linguistics and a total duffer in economics. Similarly Rand Paul and his father in the US.

    I expect the other answer to your comment is that Bill English and Steven Joyce are sufficiently modest and realistic to take advice from Treasury and MBIE and colleagues who do have the relevant qualifications and experience.

    Roger Douglas had part of an accounting degree, but he did have an open mind so he could see what wasn't working and he read widely and did his homework.
    Unconvincing

    Oh I see, Bill and Steven are just modest wee souls who do everything that MBIE and Treasury say. Just admit it, " I don't like Labour politicians, I don't care how competent they are, I just don't like them.

    from 1984 George Orwell

    Quote 11: "She had not a thought in her head that was not a slogan, and there was no imbecility, absolutely none, that she was not capable of swallowing if the Party handed it out to her." Part 1, Chapter 6, pg. 67
    Last edited by Sgt Pepper; 05-04-2016 at 10:52 AM.

  9. #9969
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    What a day. Contrast Helen Clark confirming her bid for the post of Secretary General of the UN, and John Key's need to support the bid in public, while being roasted for NZ's tax haven policies in the house. TV1 was gentle on him tonight, Radio NZ had a more balanced view.

    I'm not sure why a wealthy person or corporation would go to Panama to find a tax haven, and have the firm recommend NZ trusts to them, if it wasn't untraceable. If the owner of the money doesn't have to be registered on the file, surely that's a tax haven. I've traced at least one NZ-based individual prominent in the minerals sector, to tax haven companies. They're doing it, no doubt about it.

  10. #9970
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    Seems to sum up the results of "rogernomics",

    "Over 15 years, New Zealand's economy and social capital faced serious problems: the youth suicide rate grew sharply into one of the highest in the developed world;[42][43] the proliferation of food banks increased dramatically;[44] marked increases in violent and other crime were observed;[45] the number of New Zealanders estimated to be living in poverty grew by at least 35% between 1989 and 1992;[46] and health care was especially hard-hit, leading to a significant deterioration in health standards among working and middle-class people.[47] In addition, many of the promised economic benefits of the experiment never materialised.[48] Between 1985 and 1992, New Zealand's economy grew by 4.7% during the same period in which the average OECD nation grew by 28.2%.[49] From 1984 to 1993 inflation averaged 9% per year, New Zealand's credit rating dropped twice, and foreign debt quadrupled.[50] Between 1986 and 1993, the unemployment rate rose from 3.6% to 11%.[51]"

    westerly

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