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  1. #1
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    Default property is the only way to save.

    Companies tell lies before going belly up with little warning making share investing a risky business at times. Govts get into wars, and take your bank deposits giving in return worthless bonds. The new one is to stop the country going bankrupt as in Cyprus at the moment, they only take 37.5% of the money above100,000 thousand Euros giving in return worthless bank bonds. It might sound extreme but stacking your money under the mattress might not be as stupid as it sounds. The hate thing the GOVT has about property is they havent found a legitimate way to steal it when it all hits the fan. I really think the system will hit the fan in the next couple of decades with massive financial upheaval during the process. The safest way out is property where the GOVT cant get their greedy hands on it to redistribute it to the masses rioting in the streets. Will it happen here or not?,time will tell but we are hurtling down that track right now so buy that property. Pay the house off, get away from the danger area which is money speculated or sitting in the bank like a big ripe juicy apple waiting to get pinched by the kid next door. Macdunk

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by duncan macgregor View Post
    Companies tell lies before going belly up with little warning making share investing a risky business at times. Govts get into wars, and take your bank deposits giving in return worthless bonds. The new one is to stop the country going bankrupt as in Cyprus at the moment, they only take 37.5% of the money above100,000 thousand Euros giving in return worthless bank bonds. It might sound extreme but stacking your money under the mattress might not be as stupid as it sounds. The hate thing the GOVT has about property is they havent found a legitimate way to steal it when it all hits the fan. Macdunk
    Oh yes they have. Your fee simple title can be changed making all freehold property leasehold with a mere stroke of the political pen, legitimately.
    Last edited by fungus pudding; 31-03-2013 at 05:42 PM.

  3. #3
    FEAR n GREED JBmurc's Avatar
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    Don,t forget rates / property tax ....bullion is my fave form of savings
    "With a good perspective on history, we can have a better understanding of the past and present, and thus a clear vision of the future." — Carlos Slim Helu

  4. #4
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    The key take away from Cyprus is not bank account bad/property good.

    The key take away is that desperate Governments will go after whatever the deepest pool of capital is, as we continue to pretend that the current system isn't morally and practically bankrupt.

    In Cyprus, that was cash in banks held due to it's tax haven status.

    In Australia, it is the superannuation funds - which is why debate has started about more taxes on the "wealthy" in this regard.

    And in New Zealand? Why, it is residential property, which is why we're hearing things about land taxes, which is why Central Govt wants more control over Local Govt and its rating powers and why National started to tinker with property taxation.

    The Cyprus situation is worth paying attention to, but don't learn the wrong lesson! Governments will go after the biggest and easiest to get pools of wealth to solve their problems.

    In NZ that is illiquid, immobile residential property. Just watch.
    ----
    Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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  5. #5
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kees View Post

    hope your right but at this stage they have with the red zoning of sections (bare land) and then paying 50%.
    Thats not right. Owners have the option of not selling. I've lost a couple of red zone properties so am a bit biased I reckon 50% for land is not a bad offer given the alternative. Your argument probably has more substance for the properties in The Frame which are likely to be compulsory acquired.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by duncan macgregor View Post
    Companies tell lies before going belly up with little warning making share investing a
    [sic}
    danger area which is money speculated or sitting in the bank like a big ripe juicy apple waiting to get pinched by the kid next door. Macdunk
    Property is an abstract concept (whereas Land is not abstract). Ownership of property is not in law of nature. It’s an agreement between two parties to act in a defined manner with that property. This is exactly the same as a bank deposit, company share or a bar of gold.
    Any government can change any agreement by fiat – and they often do. SO..it is wrong to pronounce ‘property’ as inherently inalienable due to some intrinsic residual particular to property because, as I have shown, there is nothing in the right of property ownership that is different.

    Only a hermit that is successful can be certain of never being taxed.

  7. #7
    The past is practise. Vaygor1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBmurc View Post
    Don,t forget rates / property tax ....bullion is my fave form of savings
    I prefer diamonds.
    Less fungible by miles, but far more transportable.
    There is a catch though... with diamonds, you need to know your stuff.

  8. #8
    Advanced Member BIRMANBOY's Avatar
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    When you get an hour or two..could you translate that into something understandable to the average citizen. I fear any points of intelligence have been lost among unconnected and suspect thinking. E.G. property is not abstract..its defineable and identifiable. ETC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Casa del Energia View Post
    Property is an abstract concept (whereas Land is not abstract). Ownership of property is not in law of nature. It’s an agreement between two parties to act in a defined manner with that property. This is exactly the same as a bank deposit, company share or a bar of gold.
    Any government can change any agreement by fiat – and they often do. SO..it is wrong to pronounce ‘property’ as inherently inalienable due to some intrinsic residual particular to property because, as I have shown, there is nothing in the right of property ownership that is different.

    Only a hermit that is successful can be certain of never being taxed.

  9. #9
    Advanced Member BIRMANBOY's Avatar
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    Good thinking Vaygor however Technology is advancing fast and synthesized diamonds are being produced in more locations and larger sizes so as a long term investment would need some care. There is every chance at some point the cost of manufacturing will substantially fall due to scientific advances. On the other side the costs of naturally mined diamonds are gradually rising. At the moment Synthetic Diamonds are available and marketed as such. Questions have to be asked as to how long the ethics of the sellers will remain. Extremely difficult to separate synthetic from natural unless you have a lab, specialized training and expensive equipment. But as an easily stored, readily transportable and stable storage of value they have always been appreciated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaygor1 View Post
    I prefer diamonds.
    Less fungible by miles, but far more transportable.
    There is a catch though... with diamonds, you need to know your stuff.

  10. #10
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    Default Wiederholen bitte

    Quote Originally Posted by BIRMANBOY View Post
    When you get an hour or two..could you translate that into something understandable to the average citizen. I fear any points of intelligence have been lost among unconnected and suspect thinking. E.G. property is not abstract..its defineable and identifiable. ETC.
    Apart from my grammar errors – I thought it was reasonably crystalline. Nevertheless – here’s a clarification:

    Firstly definitions..

    “Property” - A piece of real estate, Something tangible or intangible to which its owner has legal title.
    ‘Land’ - The part of the earth's surface that is not covered by water.

    And then a climb up the logic tree...

    Land can be defined by measuring it directly – e.g. surface area, altitude, soil composition.
    Property (in this case) is land to which someone has ownership rights. The attributes of ‘Land’ are tangible and can be measured with instruments (e.g a tape measure). The attributes of ‘property’ includes LEGAL TITLE – which is an agreement between two parties.
    An agreement is an abstract concept – a legal tile is therefore abstract, and since legal title is an attribute of ‘property’ – it then becomes abstract itself.

    Now for the rave from the pulpit..

    AND so.. this is the point to my argument countering that Property is ‘safe’ because you have title to it and therefore can’t be taken away (easily, but then talk to NA Indians and see how that doesn’t really work). There is a MISCONCEPTION out there that because ‘Property’ = ‘Land’ and is as ‘safe as houses’ and is somehow completely immune to anything others can do. This is just plain illogical and woolly thinking.

    Let's go one step further ..

    In the final wash up and when you boil it all down – there is no difference between cash (bank deposits, pound notes, Dong, ding ding, duro effectivo, lucre etc. and so on, etc. etc.) and property (!). Money is TRUELY and irrefutably abstract is it not ? (If it isn’t then try explaining how it is created – or even better get a banker to explain how it’s created (and I bet you they don’t know)). So at a fundamental level – there is no difference in ‘safety’ between ‘Property’ and Cash as an asset class. Both are agreements between people – both are abstract.

    Still not convinced?..

    Go to Google maps, get the sat image of your house up on the screen. Who owns it? What is the mortgage?, how much are the rates? Is that driveway cross leased? Can’t tell? Well, that is because satellites only photograph the tangible and cannot record an ABTRACT CONCEPT.
    And that is where the whole argument turns – the next time that satellite passes over, if the owner been biffed out by way of a mortgagee sale (or people’s revolution – please pick your favourite way of being dispossessed) – the satellite image will not change because the LAND will be the same ( but the PROPERTY will be in different hands).

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