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  1. #3631
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    OK, so all those diversional therapy extras are not part of any basic package.
    No. Some diversional therapy is included in the "basic" package. If you want more it has to be paid for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    Yet the basic care package is quite comprehensive,in the sense that all of your really basic needs (apart from clothing) are covered. It does make one think though, about all those folk stuck on a minimum care package with no extended family looking after them. It would be a very basic existence, that is for sure.
    Correct - the very basic needs are met - but not relatively basic things such as nail clipping and haricuts

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    That contribution rate of $1,105 is what the provider gets? I think when it comes to 'billing the client' the residential care provider would add on whatever the after tax payment of NZ Superannuation comes to. In round figures, around $250? So the overall 'basic bill' from the resident client's perspective would be $1,355m per week.
    Not as I understand it. The way I think it works is the maximum contribution a DHB will make, in this particular region ( the amount is different for each area) is $1105. So the care facility has to provide all "basic" services for this amount. If a "poor" person gets the $1105 care subsidy then they essentially loose there govt pension except fro about $45 a week. So govt is recouping some of the $1105

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    For the luxury option:

    $212 x 7 = $1,484

    That works out at a premium of $129 per week. That is enough to make a useful difference to the resident's in care experience.
    Yup. So if you are "rich" why wouldnt you go for teh upmarket OCA option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    The interesting thing I see in that 'list of the basics' is that they are all services. There is no prescriptive information on how big a room needs to be, or whether there is an en-suite. This suggests to me that the likes of OCA cannot escape their 'public duty' by claiming that their rooms are not 'down to scratch' for potential residents subsidized for only basic care.
    There are 50 applicable Standards (eg Health and Disability Services Standards NZS 8134:2008) with over 100 criteria. For example, for toileting its something like "There are adequate numbers of accessible toilets/showers/bathing facilities conveniently located and in close proximity to each service area to meet the needs of consumers." So - no need to provide an Ensuite. Standard bedrooms probably need to be no less than 1.8m wide and no less than 6 SQM - (gotta check that detail) which is why a premium can be charged for a larger room. (as I recall a care facility with a DHB contract has to provide a room if one is available. So if a "poor" person needs a room and only a "premium" one is available they get the premium room. Presumably for as long as no standard room is available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    OKThat means the scenario where the likes of OCA will be assigned a 'poor' -in dollar wealth terms- patient for permanent care is a real one. And to go back to what the chief executive of Parkwood, Mark Rouse, said in the Kapiti News article that I originally mentioned, care beds are not being funded at a rate that can absorb increases in running costs over the last year. This means that an outfit like OCA, that runs a very high percentage of care beds, could be in real trouble going forwards. That is the way I see things anyway.

    SNOOPY
    Without re reading the article I take it that Parkwood cant run their business on the income made available from teh DHB. Now, if they did something special, like provide ensuites, they could charge their residents more and thus become for financially viable. OCA isnt reliant on DHB as its primary revenue stream - thats its moat!
    Last edited by minimoke; 26-04-2019 at 10:58 PM.

  2. #3632
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    There are 50 applicable Standards (eg Health and Disability Services Standards NZS 8134:2008) with over 100 criteria. For example, for toileting its something like "There are adequate numbers of accessible toilets/showers/bathing facilities conveniently located and in close proximity to each service area to meet the needs of consumers." So - no need to provide an Ensuite. Standard bedrooms probably need to be no less than 1.8m wide and no less than 6 SQM - (gotta check that detail) which is why a premium can be charged for a larger room. (as I recall a care facility with a DHB contract has to provide a room if one is available. So if a "poor" person needs a room and only a "premium" one is available they get the premium room. Presumably for as long as no standard room is available.

    Without re reading the article I take it that Parkwood cant run their business on the income made available from the DHB. Now, if they did something special, like provide en suites, they could charge their residents more and thus become for financially viable. OCA isn't reliant on DHB as its primary revenue stream - thats its moat!
    Thanks for the extra info on those Health and Disability Standards. I didn't take a tape measure with me on my visits to various facilities over the last few years, But I am fairly sure I haven't seen a care room as small as 6m2. A bed would take one third of that floor area. Stick a chair in the remaining floor space and you get a fairly poor training venue for the regional cat swinging championships.

    In one facility in particular that I visited, there certainly were non premium rooms that were larger than 6m2, and those included en-suites. This implies to me that in that particular facility's catchment area, there are not enough 'rich' to allow them to operate without some kind of DHB contract. After all, if en-suite rooms can attract a premium price and there were enough potential residents around to pay for that, then there is no doubt that a well run retirement village would go after those potential customers.

    For those without the regional knowledge of the Kapiti area, it is -in Waikanae at least- a relatively wealthy catchment. Historically it has been a place where Wellington residents have acquired a beach cottage and at the end of their working lives retired there. It is so good that even our much esteemed ex prime minister Sir Jimothy Bolger now lives there! So the place is not short of 'older folks' who have made a few bob over their working lives. Even so, it would seem that the retirement villages in the area (including those operated by Arivida, Metlifecare and Ryman) do have DHB contracts.

    I didn't get the impression that Parkwood cannot pay its bills from the newspaper article. All of these villages are able to cross subsidize their care beds from their wider residential village businesses. I think that Parkwood CE Rouse was trying to bring an issue to the wider public on the increasing difficulty of funding care for the villages' most vulnerable residents with current government policy settings.

    As far as OCA is concerned, I presume it operates in more than one DHB area? Perhaps somewhere in leafy Auckland there is an OCA home without any 'poor' that is completely funded by private residents. But I would doubt that this is the case over the rest of the country, or indeed in the rest of Auckland. I would take some convincing that the 'moat' you tout above 'minimoke', that I have highlighted in bold , really does exist over the whole OCA operation.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 27-04-2019 at 12:59 PM.
    To be free or not to be free. That is the cash-flow question....

  3. #3633
    An Awesome Cool Cat winner69's Avatar
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    Wonder when Macquaries will unload another lot of shares ...that’s assuming they will

    A discount to ucurrent price?

    It seems IFT are going to quit RetireAustralia at some point in time if that has any bearing
    Last edited by winner69; 27-04-2019 at 03:02 PM.
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  4. #3634
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    Maximum rates for each area which will be adjusted again in July.

    https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2018-go2860

    Simply for info.

  5. #3635
    Turn and burn Maverick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winner69 View Post
    Wonder when Macquaries will unload another lot of shares ...that’s assuming they will

    A discount current price?

    It seems IFT are going to quit RetireAustralia at some point in time if that has any bearing
    Nice segue Winner...I see what you did there.
    Last edited by Maverick; 27-04-2019 at 03:21 PM.

  6. #3636
    ShareTrader Legend Beagle's Avatar
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    Stick a chair in the remaining floor space and you get a fairly poor training venue for the regional cat swinging championships.
    LOL.
    Earl mentioned at last years NZSA briefing that the average size is about 14 sq m and the average size of a OCA care suite is about 32 sq m and includes a kitchenette and bathroom.
    No butts, hold no mutts, (unless they're the furry variety).

  7. #3637
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    Hopefully ...OCA will attract big investors at tmwr Macquarie investor conference in Sydney

  8. #3638
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    No. Some diversional therapy is included in the "basic" package. If you want more it has to be paid for.

    Correct - the very basic needs are met - but not relatively basic things such as nail clipping and haricuts

    Not as I understand it. The way I think it works is the maximum contribution a DHB will make, in this particular region ( the amount is different for each area) is $1105. So the care facility has to provide all "basic" services for this amount. If a "poor" person gets the $1105 care subsidy then they essentially loose there govt pension except fro about $45 a week. So govt is recouping some of the $1105...
    That’s not very cost effective. Nails if left unclipped can lead to complications the treatment for which the DHB would have to cover.

    My local Oceania facility have premium rooms in the rest home. Residents can take out an ORA for them. The medical and rest home care is the same as for those on the basic package. The room is more “luxurious” with Exclusive use en-suite assured.

    in the UK, during the last election campaign, there was political debate on private funding for rest home care. In the face of a public backlash the Right wing Conservative Government were forced to limit “wealthy” individuals to 7 years of self funding rest home care. They had been criticised for trying to impose a “dementia tax” on those who needed long-term care by having them pay for their care until they ran out of assets. In other words the current NZ type of system was politically unacceptable in the UK.
    Last edited by Bjauck; 29-04-2019 at 08:05 PM.

  9. #3639
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    Here you go Snoopy. From todays Macquarrie presentation see page 6 and 7 fro an explanation on beds and costs.

    http://nzx-prod-s7fsd7f98s.s3-websit...786/298951.pdf

  10. #3640
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    Direct Broking have OCA returning a dividend of around 4.5% pa.........anyone like to confirm if this is correct current and sustainable? (asks he who just became a shareholder)
    Have a Gr8day.

  11. #3641
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    Quote Originally Posted by GR8DAY View Post
    Direct Broking have OCA returning a dividend of around 4.5% pa.........anyone like to confirm if this is correct current and sustainable? (asks he who just became a shareholder)
    Gross return it is correct. After tax is a bit over 3%.

  12. #3642
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    ....cheers 777. So you're saying 3% in our hand , less personal tax or 3% no more tax to pay? ( apologies for the ignorance but I rarely invest for dividends........time to change that approach I think)
    Have a Gr8day.

  13. #3643
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    Quote Originally Posted by GR8DAY View Post
    ....cheers 777. So you're saying 3% in our hand , less personal tax or 3% no more tax to pay? ( apologies for the ignorance but I rarely invest for dividends........time to change that approach I think)
    Shareprice = $1.05. Gross (before tax) dividend paid = $0.047 a share. So you get a gross divi yield of 4.48%

    Now take off your tax (say 33%) and you are left with a net return of 3%

    Which is a whole lote better than money sitting in a bank account.

  14. #3644
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    Each share paid 3.15c into bank account after having tax deducted from 4.7c.

    Dividend statements will give you the information when you get them. If you are a 33c/$ tax payer then all will be correctly done. If less then when you file a return you will get a tax refund.

  15. #3645
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Shareprice = $1.05. Gross (before tax) dividend paid = $0.047 a share. So you get a gross divi yield of 4.48%

    Now take off your tax (say 33%) and you are left with a net return of 3%

    Which is a whole lote better than money sitting in a bank account.
    And if all goes to plan, increasing dividends in the years ahead

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