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  1. #3611
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post



    Since funding is on a per inmate basis, how do you suppose big corporates will find their way around the funding issue?
    Funding is not an issue until a person capital drops below the thresholds I mentioned above.

    Bottom line is Aged care costs. First person to pay is those that can afford it. If they cant the State will pay.



    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    If the government declares there is a person in need who will go into care, then that person takes priority over a private person who is less in need of care but willing to pay more for that same room.

    SNOOPY
    If the "government" (the health professionals) declares a person wil go into care (you cant actually force a person into care) then that person will need a bed at the care level required. A basic bed is a basic bed and everyone gets equal dibs on it. A bed, with say an ensuite, is not a basic care so it stands to reason that those that can afford it will get dibs on that bed. The state doesn't pay for "extra's"

  2. #3612
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    Quote Originally Posted by King1212 View Post
    Bupa has a lot of oldies funded by government....privately owned aged care such as the lodge that u talking about..owned by a person. OCA is listed company. Hard to explain to u snoopy...best is to go and see their facilities. Or maybe u should get a Filipino nurse to look after.
    King , I have looked through a Bupa facility, looked through a couple of Ryman's and also had a look inside that Parkwood Lodge mentioned in the first newspaper article I referenced. All three seemed 'fit for purpose'. I couldn't comment on the staff to inmate ratios at each one. Are you now suggesting that Filipino nurses are not properly trained when working in NZ? At one facility I had a long conversation with a Filipino charge nurse who seemed excellent. You didn't further explain the point you made about Bupa villages being inferior despite having more support staff per resident (your claim).

    You (and others) seem to think that there is a steady supply of people who can afford to pay more than for just basic facilities (which are nevertheless $5,000 per month) and so provide a continuous higher level of care at certain listed retirement villages. Yet you don't seem to acknowledge that private full care providers are not free to pick and choose their residents because the majority of their iresidents are government funded. So the demands of the government will almost always outweigh the demands of the not quite so in need of care rich.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 26-04-2019 at 07:14 AM.
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  3. #3613
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    Just a wee story for the young uns here - you may not realise what a great thing the likes of OCA offer.

    Back in the old days if a relative had dementia you would look after them in your home for as long as you could. (think about that for a moment)

    At some point the required care got too much. So teh aged relative got committed to a pscych hospital. For my grandmother it was Tokanui. The memories still linger with me. We would drive up to this hospital pretty much in the middle of no where in nice open spaces. You would then walk through the locked front doors and the stench of incontinent patients would hit you - its a smell that still lurks in the back of my memory. The old folks would be kinda lined up. But certainly plonked in a chair and they were essentially left there for the day. I remember the bruises - the old folk fell all the time and wernt recovered that quickly. And then there was the demented wailing from something locked in a room. I remember the big tea urns and I think it was something like a wine biscuit that was morning and afternoon tea. Meals were boiled to an inch of their lives and a treat day was a stew. Medication was freely available - dont know what it was but it was in the day when valium was "mothers little helper". It was a good way of keeping people totally subdued. Back then there was no choice but the state paid.

    Fast forward to today. Hospitals do not want the aged in their care - they want them in their own home self caring for as long as possible before moving into care. Now the state doesnt pay - unless virtually all your own capital is used up. But we have choice of care. And I am very thankful that we have that choice. Its not an equal choice - but life isnt equal. Choice today is so much better than what we had in the past

    I am more than happy to have money in OCA, SUm and RYM. I get to enjoy divis along the way and no doubt one day in the future I'll need the services they offer. I'm hoping my investment today will pay for my needs to be looked after in the future.

  4. #3614
    Legend minimoke's Avatar
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    Snoopy - just so you know. Using the term "inmate" could be pretty offensive to those who have their near and dear in such care facilities.

  5. #3615
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    Get your own nurse to look after u is better...not to mention to put her on your will. She will love u long time...

    There are huge waiting list for oldies to get a bed....they are all in hospital medical unit...waiting for government funding to get them a bed.

    For those that willing to pay with their own money..will get the bed immediately.

    My wife is ex Bupa RN, now RN at hospital. my tenant is EN at ARV.

    I am out. End discussion

  6. #3616
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    Interesting and good discussion. In my own case my gentle much loved mother was in need of hospital care and her intellect and personality were intact. We purchased an OCA care suite that was for all intents her own apartment/home, small but nice and hers(Private). Within her suite she got full hospital care . The Government paid the $1400 approx. hospital care each week but we paid for the OCA care suite and we may have topped the government subsidy up a little . Best thing we ever did but you need some dough( it was nothing as expensive as a full village apartment however). I can see a substantial demand for this suite type of care and also the no frills basic government care. One can choose to holiday at glorious Millbrook or the Tiwzel motorcamp . Both are good... you take your pick and pays your dollar !!
    Last edited by warren; 25-04-2019 at 11:29 PM.

  7. #3617
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Snoopy - just so you know. Using the term "inmate" could be pretty offensive to those who have their near and dear in such care facilities.
    Fair enough minimoke. I have replaced the word that some may find objectionable with 'resident' in my three posts that wee affected. I also apologize for any offence caused. None was intended.

    SNOOPY
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  8. #3618
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimoke View Post
    Hospitals do not want the aged in their care - they want them in their own home self caring for as long as possible before moving into care. Now the state doesnt pay - unless virtually all your own capital is used up. But we have choice of care. And I am very thankful that we have that choice. Its not an equal choice - but life isnt equal. Choice today is so much better than what we had in the past
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by King1212 View Post
    There are huge waiting list for oldies to get a bed....they are all in hospital medical unit...waiting for government funding to get them a bed.

    For those that willing to pay with their own money..will get the bed immediately.

    My wife is ex Bupa RN, now RN at hospital. my tenant is EN at ARV.
    Quote Originally Posted by warren View Post
    Interesting and good discussion. In my own case my gentle much loved mother was in need of hospital care and her intellect and personality were intact. We purchased an OCA care suite that was for all intents her own apartment/home, small but nice and hers (Private). Within her suite she got full hospital care . The Government paid the $1400 approx. hospital care each week but we paid for the OCA care suite and we may have topped the government subsidy up a little. Best thing we ever did but you need some dough( it was nothing as expensive as a full village apartment however). I can see a substantial demand for this suite type of care and also the no frills basic government care. One can choose to holiday at glorious Millbrook or the Tiwzel motorcamp . Both are good... you take your pick and pays your dollar !!
    It is good to hear these stories about superior care being available to loved ones. But I suspect, being an investment forum, that those posting here are better with handling their own money, and advising on the use of their loved ones money, than most. I would suggest that those who are financially less savvy are by far the larger proportion of care residents. The above comments I have highlighted in bold are all from the residents and their immediate families point of view. That is not the perspective that I am trying to present.

    Look at selecting residents from the operators point of view: follow the money trail It is actually the NZ government that is providing most of the care funding. If a wealthy applicant wants a position in care, there is no way they will be as wealthy as the NZ government. The government bases funding on need. So a rich applicant in a 'not so bad position' will be admitted behind a more disabled less wealthy patient taking up a government hospital bed. Looking at it from an OCA perspective, OCA do not have the choice of who they admit for care. They are also not being compensated for operational cost increases by the government. The squeeze is on for care bed providers. And there aren't enough rich private clients prepared to pay over the odds to make a difference.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 26-04-2019 at 08:20 AM.
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  9. #3619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    BP, I never said people need $4m to go into full care. I said if they did not wish to diminish their capital, then they would need the income from $4m,

    ...
    If that's the case, than I am not sure what the point of your argument was in the context of this thread.

    I thought your point was that the likes of OCA (and SUM and RYM and MET) are threatened because there are not enough people who are able to afford their services (because they prefer to keep their capital and die rich but with inferior care rather than spending at least parts of their capital to improve their care).

    My point is that most reasonable people would be quite happy to consume (at least parts of) their capital if it gives them much better quality care - as long as they don't need to worry about their capital running out before their years do. As long as this is the case, there is no problem for the OCA's (and other high quality care providers) of this world.

    I would be quite happy if my father spends his money to improve his care - and I would not hesitate to use some of my wife's and my money to improve our care if and when we need it. Wouldn't you? Interesting thing is - I do see (with my father) a real world example ... he commands ways less than the big hairy number you put up. He still can afford to get high quality care - and so far we even managed to keep his pie growing.

    Given that there are plenty of others in a similar situation around - I don't see the retirement villages running out of potential clients anytime soon.

    So - what exactly are the threats for retirement villages and care providers as long as they manage to provide better quality care than the respective state funded standard care??
    ----
    "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future" (Niels Bohr)

  10. #3620
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPeter View Post
    My point is that most reasonable people would be quite happy to consume (at least parts of) their capital if it gives them much better quality care - as long as they don't need to worry about their capital running out before their years do.
    I accept your point BP. You can analyze the problem on a statistical basis and show that there are enough people out there with assets or income to fund their care at the end of life. But statistics do not determine the life expectancy of specific individuals. There are very few people who know exactly how long they will last. The idea of spending your last buck as you draw your last breath is a fantasy.

    As long as this is the case, there is no problem for the OCA's (and other high quality care providers) of this world.

    I would be quite happy if my father spends his money to improve his care - and I would not hesitate to use some of my wife's and my money to improve our care if and when we need it. Wouldn't you? Interesting thing is - I do see (with my father) a real world example ... he commands ways less than the big hairy number you put up. He still can afford to get high quality care - and so far we even managed to keep his pie growing.

    Given that there are plenty of others in a similar situation around - I don't see the retirement villages running out of potential clients anytime soon.

    So - what exactly are the threats for retirement villages and care providers as long as they manage to provide better quality care than the respective state funded standard care??
    The flaw in your argument is extrapolating the exemplary care of your father and your superior stewardship of his care to the general population. The threat to the likes of OCA is that they will be told by the government who to accept as care patients and they will be unable to say no. If every parent had a child who was as savvy with money as you and they had built up a nest egg like your father has then 'no problem'. But not every care patient is so fortunate.

    SNOOPY
    Last edited by Snoopy; 26-04-2019 at 08:41 AM.
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