If National wins ...

[fungus pudding]

Not at all. If there was sexual contact and the question is about consent - How are you going to prove that with DNA evidence either way? Sure - a witness might help, but how many couples would be happy to regularly employ a witness to make sure they can afterwards prove consent?

Shouldn't cost much. I reckon they'd get a heap of volunteers.

[BlackPeter]

If Labour introduce " the need to prove consent" without its being part of other reforms within a comprehensive review of process, then I do agree that would be a step backwards.

i have read they are looking at more comprehensive and thorough proposals.

The approach described by Little in this 2013 item is more "nuanced" with emphasis to changes in the meaning of consent and to court procedures when a defendant intends to introduce certain evidence.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/poli...t-rape-consent

Your sources are four years old and precede the the Williams saga. Maybe Labour had at that stage still a somewhat more sensible and fair view and regressed since then.

Never heard a Labour politician worrying about the right of men not to be accused without proper cause, though. Did you ever hear Ms William worrying about innocent (wrongly accused) men sitting in jail? Did you ever hear her complaining about men being the victims of sexual violence? She is spokesperson for justice but seems only to care about her female clients.

Just wondering - how come?

[Bjauck]

Your sources are four years old and precede the the Williams saga. Maybe Labour had at that stage still a somewhat more sensible and fair view and regressed since then.

Perhaps. Although I think they are still suggesting a commission prior to introducing any reforms.

Never heard a Labour politician worrying about the right of men not to be accused without proper cause, though. Did you ever hear Ms William worrying about innocent (wrongly accused) men sitting in jail? Did you ever hear her complaining about men being the victims of sexual violence? She is spokesperson for justice but seems only to care about her female clients.

Just wondering - how come?

Poto Williams does recognise the problem of false accusations:
"One thing we have to do is find out the numbers of false allegations that have been made, because that will be one of the things people will be really concerned about - that someone who's falsely accused of sexual abuse will be put through a process that is completely unfair."
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/329767/call-to-shift-burden-of-proof-to-rape-accused

i have seen her comments referring to victims (sex unspecified) so cannot really comment on whether she is only concerned for her female clients.

[craic]

Having floundered around in this area for thirty years as a probation officer, I left with as many questions as most. I was always surprised at the number of false allegations of rape I don't mean failed complaints but allegations that were made where there was no offender and the complainant was seeking some form of sympathy or was disturbed in some other way. The other aspect that disturbed me was the number of aged complaints, from middle aged or older people who wanted something from 30 -60 years ago, brought to court. those complaints were never from people we might consider successful - that is people who had a happy family life/career and so forth. They were mostly from grey people, heading into the twilight with not a lot to show for it. and it makes me wonder if maybe they look for a reason outside of themselves. I have met rape victims who shrug it off as just another unpleasant, not their fault, and they move on. The police have a hell of a job. If the offender is identified guilty or innocent he will go through hell. A highly respectable friend was "identified" on a bus, followed home and reported to the police. He torn to bits over a lengthy period. the second victim, another nun, was called and immediately knew him as a friend and declared that he was not the culprit. There are many cases on record, before DNA of easy offenders being convicted and then cleared. One of the results, for me is that I maintain a daily diary that is very boring but in ten years from now I wll be able to prove where I was today.

[fungus pudding]

Having floundered around in this area for thirty years as a probation officer, I left with as many questions as most. I was always surprised at the number of false allegations of rape I don't mean failed complaints but allegations that were made where there was no offender and the complainant was seeking some form of sympathy or was disturbed in some other way. The other aspect that disturbed me was the number of aged complaints, from middle aged or older people who wanted something from 30 -60 years ago, brought to court. those complaints were never from people we might consider successful - that is people who had a happy family life/career and so forth. They were mostly from grey people, heading into the twilight with not a lot to show for it. and it makes me wonder if maybe they look for a reason outside of themselves. I have met rape victims who shrug it off as just another unpleasant, not their fault, and they move on. The police have a hell of a job. If the offender is identified guilty or innocent he will go through hell. A highly respectable friend was "identified" on a bus, followed home and reported to the police. He torn to bits over a lengthy period. the second victim, another nun, was called and immediately knew him as a friend and declared that he was not the culprit. There are many cases on record, before DNA of easy offenders being convicted and then cleared. One of the results, for me is that I maintain a daily diary that is very boring but in ten years from now I wll be able to prove where I was today.

Hardly. It will only prove what you wrote in the diary, which is hardly likely to outline any crimes you've committed.

[BlackPeter]

Poto Williams does recognise the problem of false accusations:
"One thing we have to do is find out the numbers of false allegations that have been made, because that will be one of the things people will be really concerned about - that someone who's falsely accused of sexual abuse will be put through a process that is completely unfair."
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/329767/call-to-shift-burden-of-proof-to-rape-accused

i have seen her comments referring to victims (sex unspecified) so cannot really comment on whether she is only concerned for her female clients.

Fair enough - so she realises it is a problem for her if people might worry about false accusations. Does not mean, though that she is concerned about the people who are thanks to her policy wrongly accused.

And there hardly can be a question about the gender she wants to empower - can it? She used to be the CEO of a centre for abused women. I am sure she saw terrible cases of females being abused, but I am wondering how this helped her to find some balance.

Just think about who would win if under Labour's proposal both a man and a woman claim that they have been raped by the other person. Neither of them can prove consent. Who do you reckon will go to jail - both? Yeah, right ...

[craic]

Rubbish. If someone claims that I raped them behind the Taihape toilets on that day we in fact I was Melbourne. Most solid citizens have no idea of what they were doing last Wednesday.

[BlackPeter]

Rubbish. If someone claims that I raped them behind the Taihape toilets on that day we in fact I was Melbourne. Most solid citizens have no idea of what they were doing last Wednesday.

craic, you might not realise that we talk here just about cases where the sexual contact is not contested (or can be proven). Every time any couple have sex, either of the partners can according to the proposed Labour policy claim afterwards that they have been raped - and than the other partner will need to prove consent if they want to avoid jail.

If you are in Melbourne, than obviously you only can be accused by other people with whom you had sex on that day in Melbourne .

[Bjauck]

Rubbish. If someone claims that I raped them behind the Taihape toilets on that day we in fact I was Melbourne. Most solid citizens have no idea of what they were doing last Wednesday.

If you normally keep a diary, then I agree it could be evidence in helping to establish an alibi to the actual event actus reus in the absence of any genetic material. I guess if your diary was blank apart from an entry for the day in question, it could be more likely to be self-serving and not be so helpful.

The police can refer to their notes in establishing evidence.

[Brovendell]

BlackPeter, I love your logic and reasoning. Posters might like to search on Wikipaedia "Blackstone's Formulation".