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  1. #2991
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    This business of calling everyone a ‘racist’ who doesn’t agree with a certain interpretation of ‘The Treaty’ is just childish name-calling. The only reason why Leftists and Activists are constantly using terms such as racist, race baiting, and dog whistle is because they want to invalidate and shut down opposition to ‘co-governance’.

    People opposing co-governance do not wish to pursue a racist agenda, they only wish to preserve our democracy & ensure equality for everyone in NZ. To that end, they do not want the elected government involved in ‘co-governance’ with unelected tribal supremo’s.

    We don’t even know if the agenda being advanced by stealth by Labour is supported by the majority of Maori: effectively it is a small cabal of Maori intellectual and political elites who are advancing the co-governance plan in conjunction with a Labour outfit who will pay any price to secure enduring support from Maori.
    Last edited by Logen Ninefingers; 19-09-2021 at 02:46 PM.

  2. #2992
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logen Ninefingers View Post
    ....
    People opposing co-governance do not wish to pursue a racist agenda, they only wish to preserve our democracy & ensure equality for everyone in NZ. To that end, they do not want the elected government involved in ‘co-governance’ with unelected tribal supremo’s. ...
    "Equality for everyone in NZ" means different things to different people too. What government policies, tax settings, affirmative action and remedial action, to correct past iniquities inherited by the current generations, ensures equality for all today?
    Last edited by Bjauck; 19-09-2021 at 03:54 PM.

  3. #2993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    "Equality for everyone in NZ" means different things to different people too. What government policies, tax settings, affirmative action and remedial action, to correct past iniquities inherited by the current generations, ensures equality for all today?
    'Co-governance' between the elected government and unelected Tribal power-brokers will only create fresh injustices and divisions.

    Racism would be saying or believing that one 'racial' group is inferior to another.

    Racism is not anything to do with raising legitimate questions about a 'co-governance' agenda being instituted by stealth. It is the opposite in fact.

  4. #2994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logen Ninefingers View Post
    'Co-governance' between the elected government and unelected Tribal power-brokers will only create fresh injustices and divisions.

    Racism would be saying or believing that one 'racial' group is inferior to another.

    Racism is not anything to do with raising legitimate questions about a 'co-governance' agenda being instituted by stealth. It is the opposite in fact.
    Co-governance depends on the interpretation of the first article of the Maori language version of The Treaty of Waitangi. The second article refers to Maori taonga. So at minimum, iwi consultation with regards taonga is needed. I agree that questioning the extent of iwi involvement is more interpretative rather than racist

    There are many factors that contribute to whether there is inequality in NZ. Co-governance is just one of those factors. NZ is.currently an unequal society as a result of many factors, most of which have nothing to do with co-governance. Would co-governance actually result in less inequality?

  5. #2995
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Co-governance depends on the interpretation of the first article of the Maori language version of The Treaty of Waitangi. The second article refers to Maori taonga. So at minimum, iwi consultation with regards taonga is needed. I agree that questioning the extent of iwi involvement is more interpretative rather than racist

    There are many factors that contribute to whether there is inequality in NZ. Co-governance is just one of those factors. NZ is.currently an unequal society as a result of many factors, most of which have nothing to do with co-governance. Would co-governance actually result in less inequality?
    No. Equality is nonsense. People are not born equal - but in our society we have equal opportunity, which is all that matters. But that's not to say we all benefit from the opportunity we have.

  6. #2996
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    Quote Originally Posted by fungus pudding View Post
    No. Equality is nonsense. People are not born equal - but in our society we have equal opportunity, which is all that matters. But that's not to say we all benefit from the opportunity we have.
    Obviously we are not clones.

    The goal (at least for most people?) may well be for everyone to have equality (of opportunity, treatment and being able to achieve potential.)

    The reality is that this does not occur. Narrowing the gaps comes up against resistance from vested interests and those who have benefited more from the status quo.

  7. #2997
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Obviously we are not clones.

    The goal (at least for most people?) may well be for everyone to have equality (of opportunity, treatment and being able to achieve potential.)

    The reality is that this does not occur. Narrowing the gaps comes up against resistance from vested interests and those who have benefited more from the status quo.
    Sure makes the American constitution a barrel of hogswash. 'All men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.'

  8. #2998
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Obviously we are not clones.

    The goal (at least for most people?) may well be for everyone to have equality (of opportunity, treatment and being able to achieve potential.)

    The reality is that this does not occur. Narrowing the gaps comes up against resistance from vested interests and those who have benefited more from the status quo.
    Yes, that is the mantra today, "critical race theory". Just another theory that Labour has taken as gospel. There is a little bit of truth in most things.
    But maybe, some people just try harder than others .....
    Last edited by BDL; 20-09-2021 at 08:09 AM.

  9. #2999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjauck View Post
    Obviously we are not clones.

    The goal (at least for most people?) may well be for everyone to have equality (of opportunity, treatment and being able to achieve potential.)

    The reality is that this does not occur. Narrowing the gaps comes up against resistance from vested interests and those who have benefited more from the status quo.
    The gaps dont narrow, despite various govt attempts for good reason.

    The one's in front, would have to stop, to let those who are slow by nature & nurture to catch up, and that would be of no benefit to society whatsoever.

    Why should the leaders & go getters have a handbrake imposed on them?

  10. #3000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Getty View Post
    The gaps dont narrow, despite various govt attempts for good reason.

    The one's in front, would have to stop, to let those who are slow by nature & nurture to catch up, and that would be of no benefit to society whatsoever.

    Why should the leaders & go getters have a handbrake imposed on them?
    That way of framing the question produces an answer that serves your (percieved) self interest.

    A more equal society is better for everyone (leaders and go getters included). A more useful question might be - "How can govt improve the economic and social condition of those on the bottom of the heap?

    For people who have experienced colonisation, one effective answer seems to be empowerment. He Puapua provides some suggestions as how that might proceed, and a degree of co governance has already been introduced in some areas in Education and Health and Justice. It works.

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