TOP Party one to watch in this election

[BlackPeter]

If only we could get you away from your negative reputation button for long enough, you would see how pathetic you really are!

Like a besotted child who has a new spinning Top toy.

You are the epitome of bully.

Then, when embarrassed, you launch straight into smear.

If Top is as right leaning as you think it is, then maybe it makes anyone centrist seem far right.

Far out.

Interesting - its always the kindergarten bullies who think that the right of free speech applies only to them.

They first tease others until they react and than they complain to the kindergarten teacher. You behave like such a bully.

I found your made up story disgusting and exercised my right of free speech to mark that with the appropriate reputation. Absolutely apropriate way to use it.

Why do you complain? Do you support free speech only for the people who agree with your drivel?

[Getty]

Interesting - its always the kindergarten bullies who think that the right of free speech applies only to them.

They first tease others until they react and than they complain to the kindergarten teacher. You behave like such a bully.

I found your made up story disgusting and exercised my right of free speech to mark that with the appropriate reputation. Absolutely apropriate way to use it.

Why do you complain? Do you support free speech only for the people who agree with your drivel?

Your liking for making up and believing fairy tales is illustrated by your reference to kindergartens.

Please point out what I made up?

Don't confuse a comment with a complaint.

And don't try and turn the tables on the subject of free speech.
I have previously pointed out your hatred of free speech, and your resort to the bad rep button to bully others who have a different opinion to yours.

Any neutral observer will see your very sad record in that regard!

[FTG]

To the objective observer, it is clear that since inception, TOP has been, and still is, ideologically "confused".

No wonder some on this thread also appear confused and struggle to articulately communicate what, if any, TOP's foundational principles are.

Ideological confusion in a political party is often a strong signal, that really, they are just attempting to be a populist movement, rather than a party based on a suite of rock-solid principles.

This internal confusion then permeates all the way through to the electorate candidates, party faithful, casual & fleeting supporters (swing voters) and of course, the general voting public. In reality, Policy/Principle wise, the party will likely be "all over the map".

From a PR perspective, TOP attempts to position themselves as a centrist party - boldly declaring, "We are neither on the Left or the Right". Again, this is straight from the 'Populist Political Party Playbook'. I venture to say that a few TOP supporters have swallowed that hook, line and sinker. Fortunately, 97.9% of voters saw the spoiled bait for what it is.

Another tactic commonly deployed by political party's attempting to 'land-grab' from the centre of the political spectrum is, to hijack the use of descriptive labels that have a very wide appeal. The labels "Progressive" & "Liberal" are a good case in point. E.g. What voter would put their hand up & say that they don't want "progress"?

The word liberal derives from the Latin word liber, which meant FREE. So politically, and for many decades, a true Liberal (politically) was one who supported & promoted individual rights, civil liberties, free enterprise, etc. Today, however, the 'label hijackers' attempt to use the word liberal to promote their version of policies that are 'socially progressive", E.g. BIG Social Welfare programs.

So, despite attempting to claim a neutral/centrist position, TOP's policy platform very clearly places them LEFT of centre on the political spectrum. For those who can recall, akin to the Social Credit Party, in the 1980's.

Funny, I seem to recall Gareth Morgan once saying that there were a lot of things about the original SCP that he liked!

[Getty]

To the objective observer, it is clear that since inception, TOP has been, and still is, ideologically "confused".

No wonder some on this thread also appear confused and struggle to articulately communicate what, if any, TOP's foundational principles are.

Ideological confusion in a political party is often a strong signal, that really, they are just attempting to be a populist movement, rather than a party based on a suite of rock-solid principles.

This internal confusion then permeates all the way through to the electorate candidates, party faithful, casual & fleeting supporters (swing voters) and of course, the general voting public. In reality, Policy/Principle wise, the party will likely be "all over the map".

From a PR perspective, TOP attempts to position themselves as a centrist party - boldly declaring, "We are neither on the Left or the Right". Again, this is straight from the 'Populist Political Party Playbook'. I venture to say that the few TOP supporters have swallowed that hook, sinker and line. Fortunately, 97% of voters saw the spoiled bait for what it is.

Another tactic commonly deployed by political party's attempting to 'land-grab' from the centre of the political spectrum is, to hijack the use of descriptive labels that have a very wide appeal. The labels "Progressive" & "Liberal" are a good case in point. E.g. What voters would put their hand up & say that they don't want "progress"?

The word liberal derives from the Latin word liber, which meant FREE. So politically, and for many decades, a true Liberal (politically) was one who supported & promoted individual rights, civil liberties, free enterprise, etc. Today, however, the 'descriptive label hijackers' attempt to use the word liberal to promote their version of policies that are 'socially progressive", E.g. BIG Social Welfare programs.

So, despite attempting to claim a neutral/centrist position, TOP's policy platform very clearly places them LEFT of centre on the political spectrum. For those who can recall, akin to the Social Credit Party, in the 1980's.

Funny, I seem to recall Gareth Morgan once saying that there were a lot of things about the original SCP that he liked!

Excellent summation and perspective.

[BlackPeter]

To the objective observer, it is clear that since inception, TOP has been, and still is, ideologically "confused".

No wonder some on this thread also appear confused and struggle to articulately communicate what, if any, TOP's foundational principles are.

Ideological confusion in a political party is often a strong signal, that really, they are just attempting to be a populist movement, rather than a party based on a suite of rock-solid principles.

This internal confusion then permeates all the way through to the electorate candidates, party faithful, casual & fleeting supporters (swing voters) and of course, the general voting public. In reality, Policy/Principle wise, the party will likely be "all over the map".

From a PR perspective, TOP attempts to position themselves as a centrist party - boldly declaring, "We are neither on the Left or the Right". Again, this is straight from the 'Populist Political Party Playbook'. I venture to say that the few TOP supporters have swallowed that hook, sinker and line. Fortunately, 97% of voters saw the spoiled bait for what it is.

Another tactic commonly deployed by political party's attempting to 'land-grab' from the centre of the political spectrum is, to hijack the use of descriptive labels that have a very wide appeal. The labels "Progressive" & "Liberal" are a good case in point. E.g. What voters would put their hand up & say that they don't want "progress"?

The word liberal derives from the Latin word liber, which meant FREE. So politically, and for many decades, a true Liberal (politically) was one who supported & promoted individual rights, civil liberties, free enterprise, etc. Today, however, the 'descriptive label hijackers' attempt to use the word liberal to promote their version of policies that are 'socially progressive", E.g. BIG Social Welfare programs.

So, despite attempting to claim a neutral/centrist position, TOP's policy platform very clearly places them LEFT of centre on the political spectrum. For those who can recall, akin to the Social Credit Party, in the 1980's.

Funny, I seem to recall Gareth Morgan once saying that there were a lot of things about the original SCP that he liked!

I guess you could say that about any political party. Don't forget - parties are just a collection of people who change over time. Remember Maldoon (National) running his Think Big projects (i.e. big state idea - left wing)? Remember afterwards the Labour party under Lange dismanteling the biggest nanny state NZ ever had (applying many right-wing policies)?
Remember the times when the Green Party was mainly concerned about the environment before the Alliance (including the former Communist party of NZ) took them over?

They all must have been very ïdeological confused? - So, maybe we allow that other parties as well.

But I guess your critical mistake is to try to project everything in a multidimensional universe onto a one dimensional left - right spectrum. It is neither helpful nor sensical. Actually - what you are doing is practising the fundamental flaw of populism: You apply a simple solution onto a complex problem which does not work.

Instead of having an absolutely pointless left-right discussion (which only came from the place where delegates used to sit in the French National Assembly after the revolution) it might be more useful to talk about concrete issues. Lets talk issues instead of where to put the deckchairs - shall we?

So - what is wrong with a party which suggests to apply a bit more common sense instead of ideology when solving problems, which has practical proposals to conserve and improve the environment, which suggests to improve our education and health systems, which has a practical solution to reduce landspeculation and to encourage better use of our land and still has policies to make sure that our economy can prosper?

Not sure why some of the right wingers try so hard to put TOP into the left wing corner? - Is it TOP's proposal to invest into our youth?

Now, I do acknowledge that some of the policies might need some more flesh to make clear that the country expects a return on its investment into the youth (and rules how to ensure that) - but hey, this is early days ... and if even National gets away with an unfunded Tax relief proposal, than maybe we should give a new party without an army of taxpayer funded lawyers reviewing each of their proposals a bit more leeway and allow them to draw up a direction which no doubt will be better defined in the years ahead? Whatever its flaws - at the moment we are neglecting our youth ... and if we keep doing that we will lose them. What do you think will happen with a country without young people?

I haven't seen yet any argument why rocking the boat consistently from the right to the left to the right (and so on ...) should be a better way to move the country forward than just using our resources and energy to drive it straight ahead into a better future.

Boat rockers are just people who want to keep us in the past!

[Getty]

I guess you could say that about any political party. Don't forget - parties are just a collection of people who change over time. Remember Maldoon (National) running his Think Big projects (i.e. big state idea - left wing)? Remember afterwards the Labour party under Lange dismanteling the biggest nanny state NZ ever had (applying many right-wing policies)?
Remember the times when the Green Party was mainly concerned about the environment before the Alliance (including the former Communist party of NZ) took them over?

They all must have been very ïdeological confused? - So, maybe we allow that other parties as well.

But I guess your critical mistake is to try to project everything in a multidimensional universe onto a one dimensional left - right spectrum. It is neither helpful nor sensical. Actually - what you are doing is practising the fundamental flaw of populism: You apply a simple solution onto a complex problem which does not work.

Instead of having an absolutely pointless left-right discussion (which only came from the place where delegates used to sit in the French National Assembly after the revolution) it might be more useful to talk about concrete issues. Lets talk issues instead of where to put the deckchairs - shall we?

So - what is wrong with a party which suggests to apply a bit more common sense instead of ideology when solving problems, which has practical proposals to conserve and improve the environment, which suggests to improve our education and health systems, which has a practical solution to reduce landspeculation and to encourage better use of our land and still has policies to make sure that our economy can prosper?

Not sure why some of the right wingers try so hard to put TOP into the left wing corner? - Is it TOP's proposal to invest into our youth?

Now, I do acknowledge that some of the policies might need some more flesh to make clear that the country expects a return on its investment into the youth (and rules how to ensure that) - but hey, this is early days ... and if even National gets away with an unfunded Tax relief proposal, than maybe we should give a new party without an army of taxpayer funded lawyers reviewing each of their proposals a bit more leeway and allow them to draw up a direction which no doubt will be better defined in the years ahead? Whatever its flaws - at the moment we are neglecting our youth ... and if we keep doing that we will lose them. What do you think will happen with a country without young people?

I haven't seen yet any argument why rocking the boat consistently from the right to the left to the right (and so on ...) should be a better way to move the country forward than just using our resources and energy to drive it straight ahead into a better future.

Boat rockers are just people who want to keep us in the past!

So there you have it folks.

Much preamble conditioning you that Top will be just as good or bad as any of the other 8 parties or alliance that have made it to Parliament under MMP.

Ah, but now Top is the only common sense one.

Where have we heard that before?
From someone Dunne and dusted.

Bring back the worm!

Top needs it, before it gets the bird.

Or why just settle for a Vermeer, when you can have a Van Gogh?

A splinter or a whole cabinet?

Someone may save themselves $70K.

Meanwhile, anyone who votes for any other party, is going to enjoy being told they and their party of choice has no common sense!

After all, there is only 98% of them, compared to Top's 2%!

Anyone feel they are having their tail wagged?

[Panda-NZ-]

TOP gains 15k from special votes... from 2.07% to 2.22%.

[Logen Ninefingers]

If TOP had got to 2.5% then they would have been exactly half way towards getting to the threshold.

[Getty]

Cream is supposed to rise the the top, but not if it's half baked.

[Balance]

Raf Manji quits and TOP will hold a meeting to decide on its future.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...-manji-resigns