US Shares - Taxation

[SBQ]

$220 strike price JAN15? What's the probability FB stock will be in the $ (higher than $220 by that time?) since you're betting it's current $190 stock price will be higher? In my experience the vast majority of options contracts expire worthless. The reality is no one would offer a option contract that would give the contract buyer an edge to profit, and hence most options expire with little or no profit; or more likely, you won't find any offering on the contract. Typically options pricing are better suited to stocks that have high volatility, but then typically, no one write contracts on such volatile stocks where the pricing is so in to the $.

FIF does not apply to derivative / options and hence why IRD/NZ Gov't has place regulation to deter or limit the investments in this area by NZ residents. The FMA states any foreign broker offering options contracts directly to NZ residents would be doing so illegally, without these brokers being licensed by the FMA (which none of them would bother). You could use a local NZ broker to play the options but i'm certain at a much higher cost and you would not be exempt from taxation on any of the profits made from derivatives. The whole idea of the FMA is that prior to this regulations, IRD had no form of taxation on those that made $ from options contracts conducted offshore. Since they were nothing more than contract terms and that the specific asset could not have a 'balance' account value at any specific day, this meant IRD could not directly tax it under FIF, nor could the overseas foreign brokers would comply to NZ regulations (or so IRD could keep tabs of NZ residents making $ from overseas accounts). Since the biggest player the USA is not part of the CRS (Common Reporting Standard where banks/brokers have to remit client information to the foreign tax authority by tax ID#), US brokers are simply ignoring NZ client or restricting their account by excluding derivative investments.

Shorting Uber shares directly is simplistic (providing your broker has a pool of shortable shares ; note not all brokers are the same and you'll find the NZ brokers most likely don't have access or an allotment of shares to allow for short position). In terms of FIF, an account balance is always determined during a short position so therefore, tax by FIF will still apply.

Here's an interesting thing to separate the individual investors vs the Kiwi Saver / NZ managed funds. Regardless of the managed fund's performance, FIF applies to the fund regardless on years they gained and on years they've lost value for their clients. While to the individual if they invested directly to the same foreign stock or ETF, on years where their portfolio goes negative, they can switch FIF to 'Comparative Value' method and no tax will be paid for that year. No financial seminar i've attended have provided me a direct answer why the NZ tax system has been so inequitable across the landscape of investments ; such as investing into real estate, Kiwi Saver, directly invested abroad, etc. There's no real level playing field whatsoever!!

[peat]

The FMA states any foreign broker offering options contracts directly to NZ residents would be doing so illegally, without these brokers being licensed by the FMA (which none of them would bother).

I've traded the occasional option series on an online trading platform recently so something is not quite right with your statement. They did require my NZ tax number so possibly are licensed or possibly they are classed as CFD's not options - but they are structured as true put and calls.

[SBQ]

I've traded the occasional option series on an online trading platform recently so something is not quite right with your statement. They did require my NZ tax number so possibly are licensed or possibly they are classed as CFD's not options - but they are structured as true put and calls.

From the horse's mouth: https://www.fma.govt.nz/contact/faqs/#Foreign

Why can’t I use an Australian regulated, European regulated, or US regulated foreign exchange provider?
You can, but it’s illegal for them to offer derivatives to retail investors in New Zealand without being licensed by us. If they are willing to break the law to get your business, it’s likely they will be cutting corners in other areas and you will have much less protection if things go wrong."

Spells clear to me. Most major brokerage firms provide some services in derivative & options trades. If not, even simple foreign exchange rate services will require the foreign brokerage firm to be licensed by the FMA despite the NZ client not having any access to these services.

[SBQ]

Also I should reiterate NZ does not have any depository insurance. That is $ in the banks are not insured in the case of bankruptcy. Whereas in Canada they have CDIC, and in the US they have FDIC (which insures balances up to $250,000 per account) and with brokers, they have SIPC covers up to $500,000. TDAmeritrade covers up to $1,000,000 for joint accounts.

So where is this FMA BS they're saying that investors $ is not safe in the overseas major brokerage houses or banks? It's not like people are sending money to Nigeria from a phone scam.

[peat]

I've traded the occasional option series on an online trading platform recently so something is not quite right with your statement. They did require my NZ tax number so possibly are licensed or possibly they are classed as CFD's not options - but they are structured as true put and calls.

From the horse's mouth: https://www.fma.govt.nz/contact/faqs/#Foreign

Why can’t I use an Australian regulated, European regulated, or US regulated foreign exchange provider?
You can, but it’s illegal for them to offer derivatives to retail investors in New Zealand without being licensed by us. If they are willing to break the law to get your business, it’s likely they will be cutting corners in other areas and you will have much less protection if things go wrong."

Spells clear to me. Most major brokerage firms provide some services in derivative & options trades. If not, even simple foreign exchange rate services will require the foreign brokerage firm to be licensed by the FMA despite the NZ client not having any access to these services.

The FMA states any foreign broker offering options contracts directly to NZ residents would be doing so illegally, without these brokers being licensed by the FMA (which none of them would bother).

Quite a few are licensed as it turns out, including the one I use.
https://www.fma.govt.nz/compliance/l...s%5B101%5D=101

Your statement implied there were none.

[SBQ]

Quite a few are licensed as it turns out, including the one I use.
https://www.fma.govt.nz/compliance/l...s%5B101%5D=101

Your statement implied there were none.

?? My statement is clear that NZ residents must trade via FMA's licensing scheme - that list if it is of any indication of how many brokers are licensed is insignificant to the global market share of brokers. Not one I can see that is US based.

What is apparent, FMA is telling investors that bogus or risky brokers overseas do exists.. yes I get that, in places like Zimbabwe. But over in the US, we see brokers that are bigger than ALL of the banks in Australia & NZ combined and offer real insurance protection to their clients.

[matty1]

Shorting Uber shares directly is simplistic (providing your broker has a pool of shortable shares ; note not all brokers are the same and you'll find the NZ brokers most likely don't have access or an allotment of shares to allow for short position). In terms of FIF, an account balance is always determined during a short position so therefore, tax by FIF will still apply.

Am surprised that FIF rules would apply to a short position. Is this correct? I would argue that at no time do you have "a direct interest in a foreign company" as defined by EX30 of the Income tax Act. When the broker closes out the short position the shares are returned to the broker's pool of shortable stock. One is never listed as the holder of the stock.

Also, if one was to say, go short in XYZ Inc in May 2017 at $1000 a share and cover in June 2020 at $100 a share, how exactly would that be taxed under FIF rules? With there being a margin loan, short borrowing costs, responsibility to pay dividends to the long party etc, and never actually owning the stock, surely it's more akin to a Financial Arrangement?