Labour govt 2020-23

[BlackPeter]

So is the upshot of all of that, that when Europeans arrived in NZ, they would have felt perfectly at home with Maori, and didn't have to teach them a thing?

You clearly didn't listen ... ;

[dobby41]

So is the upshot of all of that, that when Europeans arrived in NZ, they would have felt perfectly at home with Maori, and didn't have to teach them a thing?

They probably could have taught Maori how to do it better

[dobby41]

I'm not following why we are discussing who is the more violent group?
All humans have a very violent past, some more recent than others.

[Getty]

They probably could have taught Maori how to do it better

Well, their teachings have been very successful, because I'm trying to work out how we descended from that equal nirvana, to 2021 where Maori Stats are dismal by comparison.

[davflaws]

Yes, they could. But not as common by any means.
Have you seen Alan Duff's movie 'Once were warriors'?
Was there any truth in the depiction of Duff's characters?

Do some research on prison/court stats. and ask a few criminal psychologists or police.

Don't need to - been there done that, sat with lotsa "Jake"s and their whanau. Duff accurately portrayed the lives of many on the bottom of the heap.

In his 1999 autobiography, Out of the Mist and Steam, he describes his Māori mother (and most of her relatives) as alcoholic, irresponsible and physically and emotionally abusive. His Pākehā father and his relatives, by contrast, were highly educated and sophisticated—one uncle, Roger Duff, was a well-known anthropologist; his paternal grandfather was liberal magazine editor and literary patron Oliver Duff."

If your analysis stops there - the conclusion is easy. "Pakehafy" those alcoholic, irresponsible and abusive Maori and make them sophisticated and highly educated. Then they will behave better and bootstrap themselves off the bottom of the heap.

But the question remains HOW? My experience and a variety of research suggests that improving the social and economic condition of indigenous people is most effective when governance and resources are devolved. If programs have clear contractual outcomes and clear accountability, they work.

[davflaws]

Well, their teachings have been very successful, because I'm trying to work out how we descended from that equal nirvana, to 2021 where Maori Stats are dismal by comparison.

I don't know whether you actually want to know, but there was no equal nirvana. By the time te tiriti was signed, Maori still had almost all the land, had eagerly adopted all the technology available, and were outcompeting Europeans in many key economic areas.

Like many other indigenous people at about that time, they were swamped by waves of European immigration and ultimately beaten in the Land Wars by professional invading armies. Subsequent colonisation swamped them on every level. They lost any hope of parity intellectually, politically, culturally and socially.

Confiscation alienation and loss of land and the economic base it provided harmed them economically and culturally. The effects of this disadvantage were multiplied oversubsequent generations until at least 1960. I understand the gaps closed a bit between then and Rogernomics when a growing gap between the top and the bottom made everyone on the bottom relatively worse off.

[Getty]

I don't know whether you actually want to know, but there was no equal nirvana. By the time te tiriti was signed, Maori still had almost all the land, had eagerly adopted all the technology available, and were outcompeting Europeans in many key economic areas.

Like many other indigenous people at about that time, they were swamped by waves of European immigration and ultimately beaten in the Land Wars by professional invading armies. Subsequent colonisation swamped them on every level. They lost any hope of parity intellectually, politically, culturally and socially.

Confiscation alienation and loss of land and the economic base it provided harmed them economically and culturally. The effects of this disadvantage were multiplied oversubsequent generations until at least 1960. I understand the gaps closed a bit between then and Rogernomics when a growing gap between the top and the bottom made everyone on the bottom relatively worse off.

https://youtu.be/N4ltLp30KVs
I want to know all right.

Thanks to some of you blokes, I'm becoming edumicated.

Learning history at school was never as much fun as this thread.

I'm reminded of that line from Paul Simons song Kodachrome; "when I think back on all that crap I learnt at high school, it's a wonder I can think at all..."

All that stuff I was told about Maori chiefs selling land they had never walked on, for a few blankets, and a bottle of whiskey!
And that young Ngapuhi, Hone Heke, would give anything away , to get his hands on some muskets!

If Jacinda has a vacant spot in a re unification camp, I'm in!

[Getty]

Speaking of high school, Dover Samuels and I used to get the cane for speaking Te Reo,

We've got over it, but what we can't understand is why our mokopuna say they had the same thing, 15 years after corporal punishment was abolished!

Ah, the young, and all their myths and legends eh?.

[Getty]

Referring to our earlier postings on the Chatham Islands, I've just seen on TV1, they have 100% first covid jabbed.

Makes a mockery of all the palava we get fed about hard to reach communities!

Must be a different gene pool eh?

[Balance]

This was Cindy on mandatory/forced vaccination (22 Sept 2021) :

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/polit...forced-to.html

"Jacinda Ardern went a step further, saying not only will there be no forced vaccinations, but those who choose to opt-out won't face any penalties at all."

This is Clueless Cindy via Hipkins today:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...sector-workers

Mandatory vaccinations announced for health, education sector workers.

Running out of spin & options after her lockdown cure all remedy for covid failed and luck ran out at the same time.

Clueless Cindy Credibility is Completely Gone - except with the indoctrinated Cindy devotees.