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  1. #31
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    Sorry Ari, I might be sounding like the little boy in the story, The emperor has no clothes!
    What if the system they want to educate us on is wrong?

    Do you need to be an academic to know the problem, and is a academic "an expert"?

    Building seams have been exposed to wind and rain for hundreds of years, in buildings built of untreated timber. I do agree about his comment on NZ Radiata Pine, as I have always believed our best wood is exported. Our pine now seems to have a very open cell structure because it has grown so quickly, hence it will take up moisture if exposed to it.

    Take your average 100 year old victorian villa. Small to no eaves, large exposed faces, very exposed seams as in boxed corners, especially in two storied gabled villas, no back flashings, no silicone, no building paper and no rotting and built of untreated kauri which will rot quite quickly when exposed, especially prone dry rot. OK, they are as cold as heck in winter.

    The reason for not rotting seems to be the top to bottom wall cavity ventilation, although I have recently been involved in a villa restoration and although the weather boards were only 12mm thick with as little as a 20-25mm lap and no weather grooves there was no sign of water staining which is associated with periodic water penetration and no rot. It did have borer though.
    This villa was on a very exposed hill in the country. Looking from inside out through the weatherboards there was plenty of daylight showing hence you would expect that driven rain would have come in.

    This breaks all the new rules yet it has stood the test of time for over 100 years????? Maybe it due to pressure equalisation, that is if the pressure behind the cladding is equal to that on the outside, water is not drawn in, even if there are gaps.

    The new cavities E2/AS1 (the new acceptable solution for external claddings) calls for are NOT ventilated cavities, but in fact drainage cavities as there is no requirement to have vents at the top of the cavity, like in brick veneer constuction, only at the bottom, which will be prone to being blocked by insects, especially mason bees and wasps.

    Having seen the verification method they are using to test claddings, my first reaction was that it didn't represent a real situation with unequal pressures on each side of the wall system that you get in a house, infact there was no internal lining and the test wall was open at the top to the back.

  2. #32
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    DINOSAUR, It is all very simple to understand really. All this treated timber, or untreated timber, or bad builders has very little to do with the problem. The problem lies solely with the people that make the rules. The rules up to the seventies never encountered the leaky home problems that we have today. They had bad builders idiot designers, untreated wood, so lets concentrate on what changed. The spanish look was born, thats when the rules changed. We had air tight walls full of insulation like it was the artic circle. That in its self is a great mistake the pressure inside the wall is less than the pressure outside the wall, so that the wall will suck water up hill like drinking with a straw. They still dont know that, that is the problem they run round like headless chooks each blaming the other.If you want a ROLLSROYCE job dont try and do it with LADA parts. If you want a Spanish house build it with blocks the way the Spaniards do not like these clowns on a timber frame. macdunk
    PS brick or weatherbrds or nothing

  3. #33
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    quote:PS brick or weatherbrds or nothing
    I have moved from a brick house of 16yrs old into new 'chilly bin' house. This new house (with gas fire) has no condensation what ever as the aluminium joinery allows the rooms to breath. Whereas the brick house had the earlier joinery and condensation was such a problem that the varnished window sills had started to rot.
    The new building system, whether it be weather boards or insulclad has a far superior system as a secondary barrier than anything before.
    If certain persons on this site took the time instead of jumping on the wagon along with everyone else to familiarise themselves with systems such as Themocraft coverup and Protecta sill systems we might just have an informed debate.

  4. #34
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    ARI, Good luck with the new house, but it is you that has a lot to learn. Windows that can breathe are great . Your cavity system on your chilly bin house leaves a lot to be desired. It stops the suction problem but it falls over very badly later on as you will find. Lift a bottom plate up and look at the state damp course gets in after a few years. Remove the outside cladding and see what happened to the building paper. Fix lots of jobs up like i have done then you wont be so smug about living in a chilly bin. macdunk

  5. #35
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    Yes I agree there have been major probs with earlier 'chilly bin' houses. I assisted on repair of one 3 years ago and I tried to get owners to reclad as the probs are still onging. My bro built with monotek system and his probs are just starting so I certaintly did not go into this lightly.Time will prove whether paper rots just like the black paper did on the brick house.
    What I am saying is that if people took the time to avail themselves of info available (it's not rocket science as someone said) and not keep saying it never happened 100 years ago!
    The sealing system around doors and windows is certainly superior to anything (none) available in the past. As is the requirement to champher doors/ window bottom plates to outside for drainage.

  6. #36
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    ARI, The sealing system round windows and doors creates a great problem. In the old days there was a gap between the window liner, and the frame, other than wedges with a scriber on the outside. Today under the latest rules we have a 10 mm gap between the liner and the frame that gets filled with gap filler, which creates a suction in its self, plus a capillary reaction. The people making the rules never went to night school like we old timers did, and know nothing about the science side of building. The mastic sealers have a short life read what it says on the tube sometime. macdunk

  7. #37
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    Duncan...I give up, you win.
    Pity you did not put your name forward for the Auckland Uni Symposium to expound your views.
    Good luck with your crusade.

  8. #38
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    Ari,

    Actually, I'm probably more of an "expert" than those in the media at the moment. I tried to warn the promotors back in 95 when the untreated timber was being introduced, but my concerns were dismissed. The "experts" knew better. So I will just sit back now and wait for the next disaster, as life is to short to keep hitting your head against a brick wall.

    Just remember, many of those failed systems were Appraised by BRANZ as meeting the requirements of the Building Code. Now if you relied on those appraisals and used them you are unlikely to get a CCC. Now whose fault is that?

    Those condensation channels have been standard on aluminium windows for many years now, and yes they do save the window linings. The reason your house may not show condensation on the windows is that you are probably heating it which will keep the internal water vapour airbourne.

    I presume your gas fire is vented, that is, it has a flue.

    Those DVS systems will help too.

    Plaster Systems (Insulclad) Ltd actually recommend the use of a "semi-absorbant breather type-building membrane" in their cavity system. 'Thermakraft Cover-up' is a non-absorbant membrane and I would not use it in the situation you discribe. In fact I only specify asborbant wraps such as Thermakraft Watergate or Gib Frameguard II or the original bituminous type building papers of suitable weight. So I hope your house does not develop problems in the years to come.

    I actually quite like the Insulclad cavity system, installed correctly its a good system.

    2 houses built identically but in different locations could behave quite differently depending on the occupants and it's location.
    A house on a north slope where someone is at home all the time and opens the windows during the day and heats it at night, especially with electric heaters, will be dryer than the same house type on a south slope kept locked up all day and heated by a portable LPG heater at night.

    Look inside the walls of the latter in 15 years time and I think you will be very surprised.

    PS: Claddings only have to perform for 15 years under the code although I would be annoyed as heck if I had to replace my house cladding every 15-20 years. Hence timber weatherboards have become very popular, in fact after brick, I would say they are the currently the cladding of choice.

    I agree with Duncan, they made us Insulation walls, which means you need a still air space to make the insulation effective, but I don't think they ever bothered to test the system when it was first introduced.

    In the late 70's, early 80's they used Gibfoil which formed a vapour barrier on the back face of the gib board, hence internal vapour could not get into the wall cavity. Maybe that was a fluke? Then gibfoil was "outlawed" in the late 80's. Now with some plastic wraps, we in effect have a vapour barrier on the outside of the frame, as I don't believe those micro sized holes will let all the excess vapour through. That was a big NO NO when I went to tech.

    Just like my breathable $800 ski jacket fails to let all my body vapour out when I'm skiing hard out and wets the layer of clothing immediately under it. My wife with the same brand of jacket stays completely dry, but then she takes it gently.

  9. #39
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    quote:Originally posted by duncan macgregor

    Why do we have homes that rot out in this day and age when the old homes of yesteryear before treated timber was in use stood the test of time. What is the reason, and more importantely, what do we avoid in buying or building a home. The very basic general difference of yesteryears house and todays house is, the exterior walls could breathe. If you make a wall and line the inside with plasterboard, and the exterior with an airtight cover you create a vaccum in the wall. In other words the outside air pressure is greater than the air pressure inside the wall. A wall like that only requires a pin hole, and will suck water even uphill at an alarming rate. The builders use mastics and sealants that dry out and crack after a few years. The plumber screws his down pipes to the wall,that very well might be your first leak. The people that make the rules dont understand the problem. The master buiders are a complete and utter joke as an organization. Over the years some of their award winning homes are potential building disasters. When the building code gets changed its the blind leading the blind.
    All the homes at risk are less than 25 years old. To avoid buying one at risk in that era, make sure its either brick or weatherboard.
    The rules are about to get changed again, so dont get caught out. Make sure you have your code of compliance before then. The funny thing about it is, the old houses that stood the test of time wouldnt pass today, and todays houses are the ones with the problem. macdunk
    I thought that i would bring this old post of mine back now that blame is about to be placed on who pays for what in the courts.
    1, do we blame the home owner for being so stupid. YES.
    2, Do we blame the people that changed the building rules without any practical knowledge. YES
    3, I always refused to build this type of home do we blame the builders that did, when they should have known better. YES
    4, Do we blame the people that extorts money at a ridiculous rate who issues the permits and inspects those leaky homes. yes
    5, The people that changed the rules first the inspectors second the builder third and the home owner last. I think all are equally responsible and should pay in equal ammounts.
    To fix the problem change the code back to the seventies before this all started. Pointless having a leaky gaurantee on a house of twenty years when the sealants round the windows have a thirteen year gaurantee. The master builders association are most at fault how many of their home of the year awards are leaky homes?. I have looked on in horror at what they have given awards to over the years.
    macdunk

  10. #40
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    quote:Originally posted by duncan macgregor
    I thought that i would bring this old post of mine back now that blame is about to be placed on who pays for what in the courts.
    1, do we blame the home owner for being so stupid. YES.
    2, Do we blame the people that changed the building rules without any practical knowledge. YES
    3, I always refused to build this type of home do we blame the builders that did, when they should have known better. YES
    4, Do we blame the people that extorts money at a ridiculous rate who issues the permits and inspects those leaky homes. yes
    5, The people that changed the rules first the inspectors second the builder third and the home owner last. I think all are equally responsible and should pay in equal ammounts.
    To fix the problem change the code back to the seventies before this all started. Pointless having a leaky gaurantee on a house of twenty years when the sealants round the windows have a thirteen year gaurantee. The master builders association are most at fault how many of their home of the year awards are leaky homes?. I have looked on in horror at what they have given awards to over the years.
    macdunk
    MacD – you’ve left someone off your list – the designer / architect. So many consumers rely on the expertise of these people to have a design that is going to last the test of time – except these people continued to design homes which were not built to keep out the elements. They will no doubt say their designs were within the “Rules” – but they shouldn’t hide behind dodgy rules. I’d be putting these people at the top of your list!

  11. #41
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    Don't forget that just because a house is called a 'leaky house', it may not actually be one...

    Auckland builder says he did not build a leaky house
    The builder of a home at the heart of the leaky building landmark case has defended his workmanship and vowed to continue building.

    Robert McDonald told the New Zealand Herald the Hobsonville home of Colleen Dicks "is not a leaky home.

    "I've always maintained it is not a leaky home. It is 100 percent right but for two flashings that aren't working," he told the Herald.
    Death will be reality, Life is just an illusion.

  12. #42
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    Just like a bucket with holes in it.
    It does not leak until you put something in it

  13. #43
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    I think This is the thread you were interested in . Macdunk

  14. #44
    Senior Member airedale's Avatar
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    I know a builder in Auckland. He has a job with one of the companies that have a contract to [try and ] deal with " leaky homes". The house that he was working on a few months ago had actually won the Master Builders Home of The Year two years ago. It still leaked.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by airedale View Post
    The house that he was working on a few months ago had actually won the Master Builders Home of The Year two years ago. It still leaked.
    There must be some mistake? Dunc started this thread in 2005 - and leaky homes had been around before then. The master builders home was probably built in the last four years - hopefully the tax payer isn't stumping up to repair this one!

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