Nat/act/nzf 2023

[ValueNZ]

But I assume you agree that free access to a quality education is a way for many to better themselves & escape the poverty trap.
I.e education can equate to liberty.

Nha mihi
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch Daytr. What you're asking me is whether I believe the taxpayer should foot the bill for an expensive, inefficiently run indoctrination camp. No I don't agree.

[CROESUS U.T.]

Can you please translate, because seriously, I actually do not know what "Nha mihi" means.
Think it means fat fingers as g and h are pretty close on a keyboard.:mellow:

[Daytr]

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch Daytr. What you're asking me is whether I believe the taxpayer should foot the bill for an expensive, inefficiently run indoctrination camp. No I don't agree.

I didn't ask that at all. That is a very poor assumption. One of many you keep making.
And actually there is. Free lunches are supplied every day throughout NZ public schools.

[blackcap]

Think it means fat fingers as g and h are pretty close on a keyboard.:mellow:

Yeah true that, but I even don't know what Nga mihi means.

[Daytr]

Can you please translate, because seriously, I actually do not know what "Nha mihi" means.

Well it just displays we all need further te reo education. I'll be the first to admit that as it wasn't taught at my primary school.

But in all reality it was a typo.

Haere ra

[ValueNZ]

I didn't ask that at all. That is a very poor assumption. One of many you keep making.
And actually there is. Free lunches are supplied every day throughout NZ public schools.
Not too surprising you've not heard the expression there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Worth looking into it.

[Getty]

Can you please translate, because seriously, I actually do not know what "Nha mihi" means.

Nah, nor do I

[Daytr]

Not too surprising you've not heard the expression there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Worth looking into it.

You are really picking up some poor habits from your mentor SailorRob.
Tbh not much you post is worth looking into and this is a prime example of the inane.

E noho ra

[ValueNZ]

You are really picking up some poor habits from your mentor SailorRob.
Tbh not much you post is worth looking into and this is a prime example of the inane.
It's not surprising that you haven't heard the phrase not because I don't think you're intelligent but because Milton Friedman coined the term and I don't see you as the holding the same free-market capitalist views that I hold.

[Getty]

And something also to do with school lunches making the suppliers millionaires while the lunches end up at the end of the school day being fed to pigs?

i'm up in Ngapuhi land now, and just saw a light truck go past, emblazoned Beep Beep, Subway school lunch delivery.

I got the impression I had to get out of the way, of not just 1, but 2 delivery people on board.

At what SUBsidy I ask?

So these state molly coddled mothers can't put a couple of pieces to bread together for their kids now?

More important to pay the fag and meth bill eh?

Pay up sucker taxpayers.

Comrade Cinders got you there!

[fungus pudding]

I didn't ask that at all. That is a very poor assumption. One of many you keep making.
And actually there is. Free lunches are supplied every day throughout NZ public schools.

Not so. Someone pays. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[Panda-NZ-]

The private schools do an outstanding job of preparing and getting their students into the top universities in the world:


Is it really the private school though or do they simply pick the top students in terms of admissions before they even start to learn. That's before we get to the superior social support, contacts, facilities etc.

[davflaws]

Can you please translate, because seriously, I actually do not know what "Nha mihi" means.

It would be easier and quicker to google it than write asking someone else to reply. Especially since you guys are into self reliance and independance as indications of your virtue.

[Daytr]

Not so. Someone pays. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Oh really. I would have thought they brought in a magician each day at 12pm.
The religious state schools however turn water into wine & multiply the loaves & fishes. 🤣

[Panda-NZ-]

Oh really. Would & I thought they brought in a magician each day at 12pm.
The religious state schools however turn water into wine & muktiply the loaves & fishes. 藍

How many are single gender vs the public system.

I'm sure they are fully staffed with spiritual guidance counsellers, less so with trained mental health professionals.

[Balance]

It would be easier and quicker to google it than write asking someone else to reply. Especially since you guys are into self reliance and independance as indications of your virtue.

kihi toku tuara

[Bjauck]

It would be easier and quicker to google it than write asking someone else to reply. Especially since you guys are into self reliance and independance as indications of your virtue.
The google online translator is great.

Both “nga mihi” and “nha mihi” must auto-correct as they both translate to “thank you”. The auto-correct function in google translate is useful.

However they were making the point: if you dare use Māori you can’t make a typo.

[Balance]

You go, Winston!

Give the media hell as they accepted the $55m bribe from Ardern to promote woke and leftist ideology.

No amount of deflection is going to drown out that fact from NZ’s history.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chaos-in-the-cabinet-room-tell-the-public-what-you-signed-up-to-to-get-the-money-winston-peters-lashes-out-as-christopher-luxon-tries-to-get-down-to-business/6O3LUGXYPVA7BG6XJ3MOE5JTYI/

“You can’t defend $55 million of bribery, cannot defend $55 million of bribery. Get it very clear,” Peters said.

Applicants to the fund were asked to show a commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, including a commitment to te reo Māori.

[davflaws]

kihi toku tuara

Whatever floats your boat, but I'm not into that - even with people I might choose to associate with, and you don't qualify.

[Blue Skies]

The private schools do an outstanding job of preparing and getting their students into the top universities in the world:

https://www.crimsoneducation.org/nz/top-50-new-zealand-schools-2023/

Meanwhile, Ardern & Hipkins with the Maori Cabal have been very successful in getting state schools to produce ever dumber students, especially those indoctrinated with all the cultural crap.





So do our State Schools,
here's a list of NZ's Premier Scholars for last year, these are the 10 students who gained the highest marks in Scholarship exams across NZ.
Each year the top 10 go to Government House in Wellington for their awards.

9 of the 10 students went to State Schools, only 1 from a Private school.

You often find similar results with Cambridge exams as these students often sit both.

In some of our top State schools the scholars group are a much higher cohort than in the private schools and really push each other.
It's definitely an illusion to think our best & brightest always go to private schools.


https://www2.nzqa.govt.nz/ncea/understanding-secondary-quals/nz-scholarship/nz-scholarship-results/nz-scholarship-2022/premier-award-winners/

[dobby41]

You go, Winston!

Give the media hell as they accepted the $55m bribe from Ardern to promote woke and leftist ideology.

No amount of deflection is going to drown out that fact from NZ’s history.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chaos-in-the-cabinet-room-tell-the-public-what-you-signed-up-to-to-get-the-money-winston-peters-lashes-out-as-christopher-luxon-tries-to-get-down-to-business/6O3LUGXYPVA7BG6XJ3MOE5JTYI/

“You can’t defend $55 million of bribery, cannot defend $55 million of bribery. Get it very clear,” Peters said.

Applicants to the fund were asked to show a commitment to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, including a commitment to te reo Māori.

Spread the lie - you and Winston both!

[Daytr]

Spread the lie - you and Winston both!

He said that outside parliamentary privilege.
I hope someone sues him for it.
He's just pandering to the anti vaxx / freedom Muppets.

Kei te pai

[Daytr]

Kia ora,

I suggest all those who feel like it add in little bits of te reo into your posts.
One you might learn as you do the mahi.
Two it's a treat triggering all the Rednecks. 🤣

Nga mihi.

[Bjauck]

Kia ora,

I suggest all those who feel like it add in little bits of te reo into your posts.
One you might learn as you do the mahi.
Two it's a treat triggering all the Rednecks. 藍

Nga mihi. Sounds a good idea. I am always keen on picking up new vocabulary. Can I suggest that you italicise or quote the “Māori” words, especially those that have not been incorporated into NZ English dictionaries as it can be difficult to read a mish-mash of languages otherwise. Use of the macron when needed helps too. (With some keyboards that involves a long press, and then selecting the diacritic, of the letter needing the macron).

We have to remember that older NZers and new NZers or new residents may not be as familiar with Māori words as others.

[Daytr]

Sounds a good idea. I am always keen on picking up new vocabulary. Can I suggest that you italicise or quote the “Māori” words, especially those that have not been incorporated into NZ English dictionaries as it can be difficult to read a mish-mash of languages otherwise. Also new NZers may not be as familiar with Māori words as the native-born.

Tino pai. I just have to figure out how to do that on my phone!

Nga mihi

[Balance]

He said that outside parliamentary privilege.
I hope someone sues him for it.
He's just pandering to the anti vaxx / freedom Muppets.

Kei te pai

The media are pxssing in their pants now, let alone sue Winston and give him an opportunity to prove in court how the woke leftist journos have been bribed with the $55m to promote the hidden Maorification agenda of Ardern & Labour.

Kiss my arse.

[fungus pudding]

You got it. Food, shelter, healthcare, and education are human rights.....................

No they are not.

[Bjauck]

Tino pai. I just have to figure out how to do that on my phone!

Nga mihi
With my iphone it is a long press, then select the macron.

[Bjauck]

The media are pxssing in their pants now, let alone sue Winston and give him an opportunity to prove in court how the woke leftist journos have been bribed with the $55m to promote the hidden Maorification agenda of Ardern & Labour.

Kiss my arse.
Honouring obligations from The Treaty is of course a Crown obligation, I never thought it should have been an obligation put onto journalists and the media by The Crown in return for accepting money from taxpayers. A very bad precedent for a free fourth estate.

[Blue Skies]

Chaos in the Cabinet room! Herald headline.

Oh my days, what a circus & they haven't even started.
Winston's gone rogue & as de-facto Prime Minister its embarrassing not just for Chris Luxon but for the country, as he takes a page straight out of Trump's play book & accuses the media of taking bribes.
Winston's already creating ripples on international news sites.

3 days, 3 significant ceremonial moments, & 3 strikes - Winston's behaving like he's channelling Trump.

You can imagine what Nicola Willis, Chris Bishop, Seymour, will be thinking.....we can't work with this man.
And Cabinet members shuffling awkwardly, wow this is anything but stable & united.



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chaos-in-the-cabinet-room-tell-the-public-what-you-signed-up-to-to-get-the-money-winston-peters-lashes-out-as-christopher-luxon-tries-to-get-down-to-business/6O3LUGXYPVA7BG6XJ3MOE5JTYI/

[Daytr]

Chaos in the Cabinet room! Herald headline.

Oh my days, what a circus & they haven't even started.
Winston's gone rogue & as de-facto Prime Minister its embarrassing not just for Chris Luxon but for the country, as he takes a page straight out of Trump's play book & accuses the media of taking bribes.
Winston's already creating ripples on international news sites.

3 days, 3 significant ceremonial moments, & 3 strikes - Winston's behaving like he's channelling Trump.

You can imagine what Nicola Willis, Chris Bishop, Seymour, will be thinking.....we can't work with this man.
And Cabinet members shuffling awkwardly, wow this is anything but stable & united.



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chaos-in-the-cabinet-room-tell-the-public-what-you-signed-up-to-to-get-the-money-winston-peters-lashes-out-as-christopher-luxon-tries-to-get-down-to-business/6O3LUGXYPVA7BG6XJ3MOE5JTYI/

Not great as the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

[Balance]

Honouring obligations from The Treaty is of course a Crown obligation, I never thought it should have been an obligation put onto journalists and the media by The Crown in return for accepting money from taxpayers. A very bad precedent for a free fourth estate.

There’s plenty of examples of how Ardern & the Labour government had used state funding to threaten, coerce and force organisations and individuals to carry out their hidden Maorification agenda.

These examples are sure to emerge over the next 2 years.

[Balance]

Chaos in the Cabinet room! Herald headline.

Oh my days, what a circus & they haven't even started.
Winston's gone rogue & as de-facto Prime Minister its embarrassing not just for Chris Luxon but for the country, as he takes a page straight out of Trump's play book & accuses the media of taking bribes.
Winston's already creating ripples on international news sites.

3 days, 3 significant ceremonial moments, & 3 strikes - Winston's behaving like he's channelling Trump.

You can imagine what Nicola Willis, Chris Bishop, Seymour, will be thinking.....we can't work with this man.
And Cabinet members shuffling awkwardly, wow this is anything but stable & united.



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chaos-in-the-cabinet-room-tell-the-public-what-you-signed-up-to-to-get-the-money-winston-peters-lashes-out-as-christopher-luxon-tries-to-get-down-to-business/6O3LUGXYPVA7BG6XJ3MOE5JTYI/

Wonderful!

You go, Winston!

Add steel to the spine of National & give the woke leftist media HELL!

So very very satisfying to see the media frothing around their mouth after swallowing all the woke garbage from Ardern & Labour.

[jonu]

Chaos in the Cabinet room! Herald headline.

Oh my days, what a circus & they haven't even started.
Winston's gone rogue & as de-facto Prime Minister its embarrassing not just for Chris Luxon but for the country, as he takes a page straight out of Trump's play book & accuses the media of taking bribes.
Winston's already creating ripples on international news sites.

3 days, 3 significant ceremonial moments, & 3 strikes - Winston's behaving like he's channelling Trump.

You can imagine what Nicola Willis, Chris Bishop, Seymour, will be thinking.....we can't work with this man.
And Cabinet members shuffling awkwardly, wow this is anything but stable & united.



https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chaos-in-the-cabinet-room-tell-the-public-what-you-signed-up-to-to-get-the-money-winston-peters-lashes-out-as-christopher-luxon-tries-to-get-down-to-business/6O3LUGXYPVA7BG6XJ3MOE5JTYI/

Well they would say that wouldn't they! Granny Herald was in the trough! And it was $105 million with the second tranche. Plus the government was the biggest advertiser in the country during the pandemic. Even more income and reason to be the propaganda arm of the Ardern government. The Herald was the biggest jab pusher of them all with their 90% target that the government then supposedly adopted.

Winston's only saying what everyone knows. Trudeau did it in Canada before Ardern, and is attempting to do it again heading into his next election.

Ardern was the most cynical and manipulative PM in our history. Yet her crowning glory was the parliament grounds riot. Chickens came home to roost. It will be interesting to see if she falls out of favour with the international club at some point. She's past her use-by date.

[Balance]

Example of Labour’s & Ardern’s hidden Maorification agenda :

A charitable trust in Auckland was set up decades ago and operates to provide funding to needy & deserving students.

It also receives funding from the government.

This year, the trust was told that it could only qualify for government funding if Māoris are appointed to the Board of Trustees. And by the way, the appointees expected to be paid!

I know one of the trustees of the Trust and they could not believe the directive that was sent to them. So they double-checked and were told that the directive was government policy, even though there’s zero information anywhere about it.

[Balance]

One down, many more woke leftist media personnel to go :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301016371/live-nz-on-air-board-member-resigns-after-calling-winston-peters-malicious

NZ On Air board member offers resignation after criticising Peters
Andrew Shaw, a television veteran who served on the board of NZ On Air, has resigned after criticising Winston Peters.

In a post on LinkedIn, Shaw called Peters “malicious” and thuggish. Shaw’s comments were in response to Peters’ ongoing attacks against reporters, which stem from the NZ On Air administered Public Interest Journalism Fund.

Shaw told Stuff those comments were in his capacity as a “private citizen”, but he has since had to resign from the board of NZ On Air. As a Crown Entity, the board of NZ On Air are meant to be politically impartial.

Shaw’s Tuesday morning post said: “Peters attack's independence of media. He's not truthful. He's not accurate. He's malicious and he is here on behalf of international tobacco. His return is the worst of this gang of thugs."

He declined to elaborate on what he meant, when asked by Stuff.

In a statement this evening, NZ On Air confirmed his resignation had been accepted.

“Mr Shaw has also unreservedly apologised,” it said.

“Mr Shaw accepts it was absolutely wrong to publish his personal political views.

“NZ On Air wishes to emphasise that the views expressed in the post are those of Andrew Shaw and are not a reflection of the agency’s views. We are a non-partisan agency that has worked constructively with governments of all hues for 34 years.”

[Ggcc]

Example of Labour’s & Ardern’s hidden Maorification agenda :

A charitable trust in Auckland was set up decades ago and operates to provide funding to needy & deserving students.

It also receives funding from the government.

This year, the trust was told that it could only qualify for government funding if Māoris are appointed to the Board of Trustees. And by the way, the appointees expected to be paid!

I know one of the trustees of the Trust and they could not believe the directive that was sent to them. So they double-checked and were told that the directive was government policy, even though there’s zero information anywhere about it.
Unfortunately I am hearing of these sort of things as well.

[dln]

i'm up in Ngapuhi land now, and just saw a light truck go past, emblazoned Beep Beep, Subway school lunch delivery.

I got the impression I had to get out of the way, of not just 1, but 2 delivery people on board.

At what SUBsidy I ask?

So these state molly coddled mothers can't put a couple of pieces to bread together for their kids now?

More important to pay the fag and meth bill eh?

Pay up sucker taxpayers.

Comrade Cinders got you there!

But of course you had the sense to choose better parents than that eh?

[Daytr]

One down, many more woke leftist media personnel to go :

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/301016371/live-nz-on-air-board-member-resigns-after-calling-winston-peters-malicious

NZ On Air board member offers resignation after criticising Peters
Andrew Shaw, a television veteran who served on the board of NZ On Air, has resigned after criticising Winston Peters.

In a post on LinkedIn, Shaw called Peters “malicious” and thuggish. Shaw’s comments were in response to Peters’ ongoing attacks against reporters, which stem from the NZ On Air administered Public Interest Journalism Fund.

Shaw told Stuff those comments were in his capacity as a “private citizen”, but he has since had to resign from the board of NZ On Air. As a Crown Entity, the board of NZ On Air are meant to be politically impartial.

Shaw’s Tuesday morning post said: “Peters attack's independence of media. He's not truthful. He's not accurate. He's malicious and he is here on behalf of international tobacco. His return is the worst of this gang of thugs."

He declined to elaborate on what he meant, when asked by Stuff.

In a statement this evening, NZ On Air confirmed his resignation had been accepted.

“Mr Shaw has also unreservedly apologised,” it said.

“Mr Shaw accepts it was absolutely wrong to publish his personal political views.

“NZ On Air wishes to emphasise that the views expressed in the post are those of Andrew Shaw and are not a reflection of the agency’s views. We are a non-partisan agency that has worked constructively with governments of all hues for 34 years.”

You can't see the irony of this situation?
Someone representing the media criticizing outlandish comments of the in coming government is forced to resign.
So much for freedom of speech.

[Balance]

Unfortunately I am hearing of these sort of things as well.

Shows it was all politics and power with Ardern, Hipkins and the Labour government - the welfare of the needy is the last thing on their mind.

Karma will make sure Ardern, Hipkins and the Labour Party pay very very dearly for their hypocrisy & treacherous behaviour.

[Balance]

You can't see the irony of this situation?
Someone representing the media criticizing outlandish comments of the in coming government is forced to resign.
So much for freedom of speech.

Read carefully as to why he had to resign.

Same deal with Rob Campbell.

Both should have known better but they had been so emboldened by Ardern & the woke Labour government that they thought they were above the public service conventions and statutory requirements.

Good riddance and let’s hope for more such resignations.

Get lost and pxssed off.

Very very satisfying.

Very!

[blackcap]

Spread the lie - you and Winston both!

It is definitely not a lie. It is actually well documented that the PIJF came with strings attached. They had to do something for the $55m and then the next $55m. One of the conditions was to show a commitment to Te Tiriti O Waitangi and Te reo. REally quite disgusting from the Labour government. I hope Stuff and Sinead go out of business soon.

O and by the way, when and why did the Treaty of Waitangi, a document created by the British, start to being referred to Te Tiritity ? It is just another example of a minority forcing its will upon the majority'.

https://d3r9t6niqlb7tz.cloudfront.net/media/documents/2022_03_Irirangi_te_Motu_NZ_on_Air_Te_Tiriti_Frame work_and_evidence_for_News_M_EPcNdaD.pdf

[nztx]

I love the left getting upset. Sort of makes my day.

Out comes the old racist statement again just because the you can't accept different views.



Looks like they really got upset & ripped their way through multiple pairs today :)

[Getty]

At last, after 6 years of Dark Ages for New Zimbabwe, it feels as if the long white cloud is lifting, and it's back to ReNew Zealand.

[Daytr]

It is definitely not a lie. It is actually well documented that the PIJF came with strings attached. They had to do something for the $55m and then the next $55m. One of the conditions was to show a commitment to Te Tiriti O Waitangi and Te reo. REally quite disgusting from the Labour government. I hope Stuff and Sinead go out of business soon.

O and by the way, when and why did the Treaty of Waitangi, a document created by the British, start to being referred to Te Tiritity ? It is just another example of a minority forcing its will upon the majority'.

https://d3r9t6niqlb7tz.cloudfront.net/media/documents/2022_03_Irirangi_te_Motu_NZ_on_Air_Te_Tiriti_Frame work_and_evidence_for_News_M_EPcNdaD.pdf


Read carefully as to why he had to resign.

Same deal with Rob Campbell.

Both should have known better but they had been so emboldened by Ardern & the woke Labour government that they thought they were above the public service conventions and statutory requirements.

Good riddance and let’s hope for more such resignations.

Get lost and pxssed off.

Very very satisfying.

Very!

Having conditions such as honoring the Treaty or covering tangata whenua issues it's not bribery. All Government funding has conditions even at a local Government level.

This is not bribery.

Here we have a Deputy Prime Minister acusing the free press of bribery. That is a very serious allegation and needs to be backed up by evidence. If the funding was conditional on painting the Government in a favorable light then that is a different thing. But there is no evidence of that what so ever.

The board should have backed him but they are probably afraid of not recieving funding from the new Government.

Peters is completely out of line and Luxon should completely disown his comments. This is not Trump's America where you can threaten & bully the press.

What the hell have we elected!

[Bjauck]

It is definitely not a lie. It is actually well documented that the PIJF came with strings attached. They had to do something for the $55m and then the next $55m. One of the conditions was to show a commitment to Te Tiriti O Waitangi and Te reo. REally quite disgusting from the Labour government. I hope Stuff and Sinead go out of business soon.

O and by the way, when and why did the Treaty of Waitangi, a document created by the British, start to being referred to Te Tiritity ? It is just another example of a minority forcing its will upon the majority'.

https://d3r9t6niqlb7tz.cloudfront.net/media/documents/2022_03_Irirangi_te_Motu_NZ_on_Air_Te_Tiriti_Frame work_and_evidence_for_News_M_EPcNdaD.pdf

The British drafted the Treaty/ Te Tiriti in English and Te Reo Māori. Most Māori signed the Māori version. So it has always been both.

[Baa_Baa]

Having conditions such as honoring the Treaty or covering tangata whenua issues it's not bribery. All Government funding has conditions even at a local Government level.

This is not bribery.

Here we have a Deputy Prime Minister acusing the free press of bribery. That is a very serious allegation and needs to be backed up by evidence. If the funding was conditional on painting the Government in a favorable light then that is a different thing. But there is no evidence of that what so ever.

The board should have backed him but they are probably afraid of not recieving funding from the new Government.

Peters is completely out of line and Luxon should completely disown his comments. This is not Trump's America where you can threaten & bully the press.

What the hell have we elected!

What shower of rain did you come down in?

ANY government intervention in the media, but especially FUNDING with CONDITIONS is wilful degradation and manipulation of the fourth estate. End of. This is inarguable.

Suggest you find some more solid ground to attack the incoming government and/or protect and justify the despicable influences of the past government.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The media don't respect the voters, and they don't respect democracy. It's as simple as that. Getting funding in return for demonstrating 'a commitment to' the 'principles' of 'Te Tiriti' and Te Reo is exactly what Peters says it is: it's "we'll give you $55 million but you have to do this for us"; there is simply no other way to look at it. And yet on Stuff, it is stated that Peters is spreading 'false information'. This IS media corruption, pure and simple....and many of us are fed up to the back teeth with it!
If you are someone who believes in democracy and you are sick of left wing bias in our media, and you are buying newspapers put out by NZME and Stuff, then you are an absolute fool, as you are directly funding left wing media. Only a bloody idiot puts money into the pockets of woke left wing journalists intent on ramming their agenda down all our throats.

[Daytr]

What shower of rain did you come down in?

ANY government intervention in the media, but especially FUNDING with CONDITIONS is wilful degradation and manipulation of the fourth estate. End of. This is inarguable.

Suggest you find some more solid ground to attack the incoming government and/or protect and justify the despicable influences of the past government.

I repeat, all Government funding comes with conditions. This is nothing new & its about accountability.

Whether you agree with the conditions is another thing. But it's not bribery.

So I suggest you ask yourself about the latest shower.

Peters has again stolen the show from Luxon, although using foul means. He has no integrity, but hey how may times has Luxon come up on this thread.

The dog with fleas is running the show. He never spoke out like this out of turn when Jacinda was in coalition with him.
And what is it? Day three?
It's going to be a long three years if it lasts that long.

[Balance]

I repeat, all Government funding comes with conditions. This is nothing new & its about accountability.

Whether you agree with the conditions is another thing. But it's not bribery.

So I suggest you ask yourself about the latest shower.

It’s CORRUPTION.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Having conditions such as honoring the Treaty or covering tangata whenua issues it's not bribery. All Government funding has conditions even at a local Government level.

This is not bribery.

Here we have a Deputy Prime Minister acusing the free press of bribery. That is a very serious allegation and needs to be backed up by evidence. If the funding was conditional on painting the Government in a favorable light then that is a different thing. But there is no evidence of that what so ever.

The board should have backed him but they are probably afraid of not recieving funding from the new Government.

Peters is completely out of line and Luxon should completely disown his comments. This is not Trump's America where you can threaten & bully the press.

What the hell have we elected!

The press bully and threaten the public of New Zealand every day. Maiki Sherman and Jenna Lynch and Rod Emmerson and all the rest of them are having a very public tantrum. You can pretend all you like, we see exactly what is happening & we are not having it!

[Logen Ninefingers]

I repeat, all Government funding comes with conditions. This is nothing new & its about accountability.

Whether you agree with the conditions is another thing. But it's not bribery.

So I suggest you ask yourself about the latest shower.

Peters has again stolen the show from Luxon, although using foul means. He has no integrity, but hey how may times has Luxon come up on this thread.

The dog with fleas is running the show. He never spoke out like this out of turn when Jacinda was in coalition with him.
And what is it? Day three?
It's going to be a long three years if it lasts that long.

Turn it up. 'Demonstrate that you are implementing our agenda or we won't give you $55 million'. Most people see that as corruption, not incorrigible Lefty's like you though.

[Baa_Baa]

I repeat, all Government funding comes with conditions. This is nothing new & its about accountability.

Whether you agree with the conditions is another thing. But it's not bribery.

So I suggest you ask yourself about the latest shower.

Government funding of the media, with conditions (to promote their political agenda), is corrupting the constitution. There are no precedents where this is acceptable.

You Daytr, are perhaps unwittingly (because you haven't thought this through?) showing your contempt for the constitution, the separation of government and the media, all in some vain pursuit of criticising the incoming government. Think about it, your platform is wafer thin or nonexistent even.

Find another platform if you must, but this one will will take you nowhere, except ridicule and contempt.

[Logen Ninefingers]

'It's ok when the Left do it'.
This is what they are trying to run with. This is what they are always trying to run with.
'The media' = 'The Left'. Everybody can see how out of control the bias is. The hierachy at TVNZ - a state owned enterprise by the way - either fully condone what their 'journalists' (propagandists) are doing, or they are utterly powerless to stop them. Maiki Sherman in particular seems to have reached a point where she is out of control.

[Balance]

I sincerely hope that one of the msm takes a case against Winston for his allegations of bribery. He said it without parliamentary privilege so any one of them can take a case against him - if they dare to.

Let all the facts come out in court for all NZers to see and hear just how corrupted the media was by Ardern & her $110m bribes.

[jonu]

I sincerely hope that one of the msm takes a case against Winston for his allegations of bribery. He said it without parliamentary privilege so any one of them can take a case against him - if they dare to.

Let all the facts come out in court for all NZers to see and hear just how corrupted the media was by Ardern & her $110m bribes.

Not likely. Then Ardern and the media owners and editors would have to account for the regular briefings given in the Office of the PM. That's right, not the journos, the owners and editors.

[iceman]

Well said, although surely the Welsh can choose to speak Welsh. There has also been a revival in Ireland and the young Irish are embracing their traditional language & good for them.

I visit Wales regularly as my wife is from there. The huge difference between the dual language approach in Wales and NZ, is that in Wales they have implemented dual language knowledge in schools, road signs etc. But they have NOT bastardised the English language by mixing the 2. That is where a big difference lies. They are two totally different and separate languages.

[Logen Ninefingers]

I visit Wales regularly as my wife is from there. The huge difference between the dual language approach in Wales and NZ, is that in Wales they have implemented dual language knowledge in schools, road signs etc. But they have NOT bastardised the English language by mixing the 2. That is where a big difference lies. They are two totally different and separate languages.

'So are you saying that your whanau take the big 'sky waka' over to the UK - after doing the mahi and saving up enough dosh - and note differences between the approach taken over there as opposed to that taken in Aotearoa New Zealand?'

[Daytr]

I can't wait to see NAF provide Government funding without conditions as you are all advocating.

That would be called negligence in anyone's book.

[Baa_Baa]

Winston is exactly what the current government need, as Balance has said, to put "the spine back into the government". Calling out the media for their sustained corrupted bias under the previous government, and insist on decorum and unbiased reporting.

As the media funding from government will dry up, hopefully the fourth estate will revert to unbiased journalism, (not opinion) telling the truth, without fear or favour to the previous government who captured their mandate with sustained income, that ergo, bought them off!

[iceman]

'So are you saying that your whanau take the big 'sky waka' over to the UK - after doing the mahi and saving up enough dosh - and note differences between the approach taken over there as opposed to that taken in Aotearoa New Zealand?'

Something like that yes, if I understand you correctly ) :-)

[Bjauck]

I visit Wales regularly as my wife is from there. The huge difference between the dual language approach in Wales and NZ, is that in Wales they have implemented dual language knowledge in schools, road signs etc. But they have NOT bastardised the English language by mixing the 2. That is where a big difference lies. They are two totally differentf and separate languages.
Yep. The Welsh/ Cymraeg way is the way to do it.

[Bjauck]

Government funding of the media, with conditions (to promote their political agenda), is corrupting the constitution. There are no precedents where this is acceptable.

You Daytr, are perhaps unwittingly (because you haven't thought this through?) showing your contempt for the constitution, the separation of government and the media, all in some vain pursuit of criticising the incoming government. Think about it, your platform is wafer thin or nonexistent even.

Find another platform if you must, but this one will will take you nowhere, except ridicule and contempt. Which part of our partly documented/ partly unwritten constitution is corrupted? Government funding provided there is compliance is nothing new.

Also:
From Reporters Sans Frontières (Reporters Without Borders):
In the absence of a written constitution and specific laws on the subject, freedom of the press is not legally guaranteed.
https://rsf.org/en/country/new-zealand

Welcome to NZ’s lack of protections…

[Blue Skies]

This govt's scrapping of our world leading Smokefree 2025 legislation is not only a huge setback for public health but embarrassing for this govt & very damaging to our international reputation.
It's really beyond comprehension Luxon could agree to this in coalition negotiations.

And the estimated 5,000 - 8,000 lives which will be sacrificed, to pay for tax cuts is just depraved.
What does Chris Luxon want his legacy to be?






https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/28/asia/new-zealand-smoking-ban-reversal-intl-hnk/index.html

[Daytr]

I visit Wales regularly as my wife is from there. The huge difference between the dual language approach in Wales and NZ, is that in Wales they have implemented dual language knowledge in schools, road signs etc. But they have NOT bastardised the English language by mixing the 2. That is where a big difference lies. They are two totally different and separate languages.

Yep I agree with what you are saying.
However the Government didn't tell the media to bastardise it either.
The Labour Government however did so through their Government departments, no argument there.

[Daytr]

Government funding of the media, with conditions (to promote their political agenda), is corrupting the constitution. There are no precedents where this is acceptable.

You Daytr, are perhaps unwittingly (because you haven't thought this through?) showing your contempt for the constitution, the separation of government and the media, all in some vain pursuit of criticising the incoming government. Think about it, your platform is wafer thin or nonexistent even.

Find another platform if you must, but this one will will take you nowhere, except ridicule and contempt.

You have just described what Peters has done.
I'm criticizing Peters, Luxon I'm sure is spitting tacks due to what his unruly DPM has done

[Balance]

You have just described what Peters has done.
I'm criticizing Peters, Luxon I'm sure is spitting tacks due to what his unruly DPM has done

Not at all.

Good cop, bad cop.

This is just wonderful!

We want more!

[Balance]

Let’s hope the expanded Covid inquiry will include how Ardern & the Labour government used the $55m to corrupt and bribe the media to promote Labour’s hidden Maorification agenda at the expense of the truth.

Then, there’s the delayed Re-opening which destroyed thousands of businesses and livelihoods.

Also, the thousands of deaths due to the failure of the restructured healthcare system - because NZ was too late to allow in health professionals like doctors, nurses and paramedical personnel.

Ardern’s legacy is going to be written in blood - the needless deaths & sufferings she caused to NZers who required medical help post Covid.

[Logen Ninefingers]

This govt's scrapping of our world leading Smokefree 2025 legislation is not only a huge setback for public health but embarrassing for this govt & very damaging to our international reputation.
It's really beyond comprehension Luxon could agree to this in coalition negotiations.

And the estimated 5,000 - 8,000 lives which will be sacrificed, to pay for tax cuts is just depraved.
What does Chris Luxon want his legacy to be?






https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/28/asia/new-zealand-smoking-ban-reversal-intl-hnk/index.html

So all the would be smokers would just ‘stop smoking’ aye and we’d never hear about tobacco ever again. Too easy.
Just like dope and meth and all the rest of them are no longer sighted in NZ because they were banned.
Turn it up.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You have just described what Peters has done.
I'm criticizing Peters, Luxon I'm sure is spitting tacks due to what his unruly DPM has done

Luxon needs to get over himself if that is the case. The public want to see these jumped up woke ‘journalists’ taken to task.

[Blue Skies]

So all the would be smokers would just ‘stop smoking’ aye and we’d never hear about tobacco ever again. Too easy.
Just like dope and meth and all the rest of them are no longer sighted in NZ because they were banned.
Turn it up.


There's a bit more to it than that.

Smokefree 2025 is focused on stopping the next generation of smokers & although smoking rates have dropped in young people, there are still a significant number, too many who start & become addicted.
Although overall smoking rates are dropping, they are still increasing in Māori & Pacifica groups.

Smokefree 2025 also forces the tobacco companies to reduce the level of the addictive nicotine in cigarettes making it easier for older smokers to quit.
Most long term smokers actually want to quit this legally sold product which kills, but once in the grip this highly addictive product, are unable to.

Smokefree 2025 also is going to drastically reduce the number of places where cigarettes can be sold & we know that reducing the availability of cigarettes helps, otherwise tobacco companies wouldn't fight it so much.
The aim is to reduce the number of smokers in the population to 5% by 2025.

It is estimated the Smokefree legislation would have saved between 5,000 - 8,000 lives, plus there are many more who suffer stokes, amputations, heart disease, emphysema & other smoking related illnesses.
It is a huge burden on our Health System consuming not just money but also tying up resources like Specialists, surgical theatres, nurses, doctors, medical product etc.

Other countries like the UK looked at our legislation & have copied it. The British PM has said it was too important to drop.

Unfortunately tobacco sales are a significant source of income for most Dairys, hence they don't want to lose that income.

[dln]

Alcohol, sugar, fast food ...
What else should we ban?
Oh, yes, meat gives you arse cancer.
VeganNz2030!

[Logen Ninefingers]

There's a bit more to it than that.

Smokefree 2025 is focused on stopping the next generation of smokers & although smoking rates have dropped in young people, there are still a significant number, too many who start & become addicted.
Although overall smoking rates are dropping, they are still increasing in Māori & Pacifica groups.

Smokefree 2025 also forces the tobacco companies to reduce the level of the addictive nicotine in cigarettes making it easier for older smokers to quit.
Most long term smokers actually want to quit this legally sold product which kills, but once in the grip this highly addictive product, are unable to.

Smokefree 2025 also is going to drastically reduce the number of places where cigarettes can be sold & we know that reducing the availability of cigarettes helps, otherwise tobacco companies wouldn't fight it so much.
The aim is to reduce the number of smokers in the population to 5% by 2025.

It is estimated the Smokefree legislation would have saved between 5,000 - 8,000 lives, plus there are many more who suffer stokes, amputations, heart disease, emphysema & other smoking related illnesses.
It is a huge burden on our Health System consuming not just money but also tying up resources like Specialists, surgical theatres, nurses, doctors, medical product etc.

Other countries like the UK looked at our legislation & have copied it. The British PM has said it was too important to drop.

Unfortunately tobacco sales are a significant source of income for most Dairys, hence they don't want to lose that income.

I’m personally in favour of banning ciggies. Unfortunately MMP - a hopeless system foisted on us because of the Left’s endless whingeing about our previous system - results on a ‘tail wags the dog’ situation where minor parties get a disproportionate amount of power. It is what it is, and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

The point I tried to make to you was that you can’t totally stop people doing things via bans, as many people will simply break the law. Shane Jones said that this would simply be another drug supplied & controlled by the gangs. The Left are fond of saying “prohibition doesn’t work”….and also apparently believe that prohibition works.

[Blue Skies]

Alcohol, sugar, fast food ...
What else should we ban?
Oh, yes, meat gives you arse cancer.
VeganNz2030!


Those are all quite safe in moderation, but around 70 of the 8,000 chemicals in cigarettes are carcinogenic so from the very first puff, smokers are bathing the delicate linings of their lungs in a poisonous chemicals.
Unlike many other parts of the body, once damaged, delicate lung tissue can not repair itself.

There is no safe level to smoking.
Where as a few glasses of wine aren't going to hurt you, red meat is a rich source of protein & iron, we need some sugar for energy, but inhaling the smoke either directly or second hand, from burning tobacco which contains poisonous compounds like carbon-monoxide, tar, arsenic, cadmium, etc affects every organ in the body even damaging unborn babies in the womb.
Once in the grip of Nicotine in cigarettes which is proven to be comparable to opioids & as addictive as cocaine or heroin, even people with the strongest will power & determination, struggle to stop.

It is morally despicable for this govt to repeal our Smokefree legislation to pay for tax cuts, & not surprising there is astonishment around the world & not limited to the medical profession.

[Bjauck]

Alcohol, sugar, fast food ...
What else should we ban?
Oh, yes, meat gives you arse cancer.
VeganNz2030!
Hey you can get ill or die from drinking water too. Not only by having too much, but if it is not clean enough for us. Tobacco however is inherently unclean for us.

At least the tobacco tax on new smokers will mean extra funding for public health. Nope it is going to support tax cuts for property investors who will likely get more untaxed capital gains. Winston is supporting his older property owning supporters? Big International tobacco did not like the extra international traction that was growing from this smoke-free legislation in NZ. However it is now nipped in the bud?

[fungus pudding]

I’m personally in favour of banning ciggies. Unfortunately MMP - a hopeless system foisted on us because of the Left’s endless whingeing about our previous system - results on a ‘tail wags the dog’ situation where minor parties get a disproportionate amount of power. It is what it is, and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

The point I tried to make to you was that you can’t totally stop people doing things via bans, as many people will simply break the law. Shane Jones said that this would simply be another drug supplied & controlled by the gangs. The Left are fond of saying “prohibition doesn’t work”….and also apparently believe that prohibition works.

'Bring back the baccy ban' - How else are the gangs supposed to survive?

[Balance]

Big hooha about tobacco while tens of thousands of NZers needlessly suffer and die due to the failed Te WTF Ora experiment by Ardern, Hipkins and the Labour Party, after wastefully spending billions of dollars.

Anyone seriously trust & expect any plans put in place by Labour to work?

https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350111139/dreadful-state-our-health-system-revealed-te-whatu-ora

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/11/report-reveals-new-health-system-struggled-with-confusion-and-delays.html

[Bjauck]

Big hooha about tobacco while tens of thousands of NZers needlessly suffer and die due to the failed Te WTF Ora experiment by Ardern, Hipkins and the Labour Party.
I am sure we can deal with more than one hooha. Don’t forget the hooha that Winston Peters is raising over the corrupt media. I would love to know what in NZ actually existed that was then corrupted and who has done any bribing.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133358159/deputy-pm-winston-peters-says-he-is-at-war-with-media-amid-ongoing-baseless-claims

[Balance]

I am sure we can deal with more than one hooha. Don’t forget the hooha that Winston Peters is raising over the corrupt media. I would love to know what in NZ actually existed that was then corrupted and who has done any bribing.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133358159/deputy-pm-winston-peters-says-he-is-at-war-with-media-amid-ongoing-baseless-claims

If Peters is true to form (as in the past), the media & ex Labour ministers could very well find themselves hanging by their claims of baseless & false allegations of bribery & corruption by Winston.

What is unsaid is what evidence and information he already possesses to make the claims stick?

Meanwhile, here’s ex PM & now Chief Eunuch Hipkins with his 1 cents worth - same Hipkins who was pulled up several times for making false and baseless accusations in the last 5 years :

“Prime Minister Christopher Luxon needs to rein in Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters, Opposition leader Chris Hipkins says.

He was asked on Breakfast about the claims Peters has been making about the independence of public broadcasters.

Peters was making "baseless, false allegations", Hipkins said.

"They're pretty outrageous allegations, actually, about the media being bought off.

"That's incredibly damaging to the public integrity of New Zealand's fourth estate," Hipkins said.”

[Daytr]

So, the health experts are up in arms over the overturn of Smoke Free NZ.
With a health system under immense stress this one simple thing they could do that would help lower demand for health services in the coming years.
It is quite incredible that we have a doctor as the health minister & this happens.

Some online have not been kind, labelling the Health Minister “Shane Cigaretti” and the Finance Minister “Nicotine Willis”.

I think you could throw in Winfield Winnie in the mix as well.
And for those saying it would just create a black market & fund the gangs.
1) that is already the case due to the high price of cigarettes.
2) it's an admission that the new Government couldn't police it.

'We didn't see this coming': Fury from experts over surprising Govt policy (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/we-didn-t-see-this-coming-fury-from-experts-over-surprising-govt-policy/ar-AA1kE5l0?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=6905e0c6ad864401a85ad272cbf2cd3b&ei=45)

[Logen Ninefingers]

So, the health experts are up in arms over the overturn of Smoke Free NZ.
With a health system under immense stress this one simple they could do that would help lower demand for health services in the coming years.
It is quite incredible that we have a doctor as the health minister & this happens.

Some online have not been kind, labelling the Health Minister “Shane Cigaretti” and the Finance Minister “Nicotine Willis”.

I think you could throw in Winfield Winnie in the mix as well.
And for those saying it would just create a black market & fund the gangs.
1) that is already the case due to the high price of cigarettes.
2) it's an admission that the new Government couldn't police it.

'We didn't see this coming': Fury from experts over surprising Govt policy (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/we-didn-t-see-this-coming-fury-from-experts-over-surprising-govt-policy/ar-AA1kE5l0?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=6905e0c6ad864401a85ad272cbf2cd3b&ei=45)

The old government couldn’t police anything; gangs were running riot & ram raids were so ubiquitous that they were an everyday happening.

[dobby41]

He said that outside parliamentary privilege.
I hope someone sues him for it.
He's just pandering to the anti vaxx / freedom Muppets.

Kei te pai

The backbone of his following now.

[dobby41]

If Peters is true to form (as in the past), the media & ex Labour ministers could very well find themselves hanging by their claims of baseless & false allegations of bribery & corruption by Winston.

What is unsaid is what evidence and information he already possesses to make the claims stick?

I doubt he has any because there isn't any.

Interesting how he was part of Cabinet when the decision was made and knows exactly how and why.
He knows what they signed up to so why ask?
Pandering to his new supporters.

This is just the start - Luxon has his work cut out for him.
Willis says it is 'just Winston being Winston' and you shouldn't take it literally.
How will we (and the world) know what to take seriously from Winston when he speaks as DPM or Foreign Minister - will it be like Collins and a raised eyebrow when she was joking?
When will he tell us his 'tell'?

[dobby41]

So, the health experts are up in arms over the overturn of Smoke Free NZ.
With a health system under immense stress this one simple they could do that would help lower demand for health services in the coming years.
It is quite incredible that we have a doctor as the health minister & this happens.

Some online have not been kind, labelling the Health Minister “Shane Cigaretti” and the Finance Minister “Nicotine Willis”.

I think you could throw in Winfield Winnie in the mix as well.
And for those saying it would just create a black market & fund the gangs.
1) that is already the case due to the high price of cigarettes.
2) it's an admission that the new Government couldn't police it.

'We didn't see this coming': Fury from experts over surprising Govt policy (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/we-didn-t-see-this-coming-fury-from-experts-over-surprising-govt-policy/ar-AA1kE5l0?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=6905e0c6ad864401a85ad272cbf2cd3b&ei=45)

Yet they don't want to legalise Dope and rid us of that black market?

[dobby41]

The old government couldn’t police anything; gangs were running riot & ram raids were so ubiquitous that they were an everyday happening.

Don't worry - Mitchell will sort the Police and tell them what to do.
To heck with Operational Independance.

[nztx]

More Upset Wednesday ? ;)

Wait until the extensive sins of Labour's 6 years get laid out bare & see who Winnie digs his teeth into :)

What has been seen so far might just be practice rounds on the nearest low hanging fruit that always was going to fall ..

[Balance]

I doubt he has any because there isn't any.

Interesting how he was part of Cabinet when the decision was made and knows exactly how and why.
He knows what they signed up to so why ask?
Pandering to his new supporters.

This is just the start - Luxon has his work cut out for him.
Willis says it is 'just Winston being Winston' and you shouldn't take it literally.
How will we (and the world) know what to take seriously from Winston when he speaks as DPM or Foreign Minister - will it be like Collins and a raised eyebrow when she was joking?
When will he tell us his 'tell'?

Just wait. Drip ...drip ...drip.

Andrew Shaw of NZ on Air (appointed by Chris Faafoi) exemplifies just how deep the Labour government had entrenched itself into broadcasting and media.

No sense of propriety, objectivity and understanding of independence - what kind of appointment was Andrew Shaw?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/503460/new-zealand-on-air-board-member-andrew-shaw-quits-over-comments-about-winston-peters

The pattern of Labour's appointees breaching their independence speaks volume of how corrosive Ardern & Hipkins have been to NZ democracy :

"Appointees to Government boards have been under the microscope this year after Rob Campbell was sacked from the Te Whatu Ora board and the Environmental Protection Authority board for taking aim at the National Party over its opposition to co-governance.

Campbell’s departure was followed by a slew of allegations against other Government board members, including former Labour ministers Steve Maharey and Ruth Dyson. Maharey was found to have breached impartiality rules too, but kept his job as chairman of ACC, Pharmac and Education NZ.

Then in July, newly appointed Radio New Zealand board member Jason Ake quit after making social media comments about the reaction to former Justice Minister Kiri Allan’s resignation and arrest."

[Balance]

Don't worry - Mitchell will sort the Police and tell them what to do.
To heck with Operational Independance.

Operational Independence? Is that why there's rampant violent crimes under Labour?

[Logen Ninefingers]

The Left are still throwing all their toys out of the cot. Apparently Luxon 'needs to control Winston' and he 'has his work cut out for him'.

Winston can be an attack dog against the rabid woke marxist media we have in this country. Winston is the leader of a political party, he is not a member of the National party. It is not for Luxon to say to chime in and say anything. No law has been broken, Winston is just voicing what we all know: the media is a hot bed of Leftist activism and attempted mind control of the populace.

Hipkins, daytr, dobby and the rest; they are all furious that their Lefty mates in the media are being called out for what they are. "Luxon must do something!" Nope, duck the media.

[Logen Ninefingers]

An own goal by the Left: Shaw couldn't control his bile & stuffed up his own meal ticket, getting the boot in embarrassing circumstances.
"Poor Andy" they will be saying. Winston has stirred up the vipers nest and now they are imploding. Fancy calling a new government a "gang of thugs" when you are supposed to be a calm and experienced board member. Heads are popping all over. How many more Lefty public troughers will take the bait and out themselves as 'angry Andy's' totally lacking self control?

[Blue Skies]

The Left are still throwing all their toys out of the cot. Apparently Luxon 'needs to control Winston' and he 'has his work cut out for him'.

Winston can be an attack dog against the rabid woke marxist media we have in this country. Winston is the leader of a political party, he is not a member of the National party. It is not for Luxon to say to chime in and say anything. No law has been broken, Winston is just voicing what we all know: the media is a hot bed of Leftist activism and attempted mind control of the populace.

Hipkins, daytr, dobby and the the rest; they are all furious that their Lefty mates in the media are being called out for what they are. "Luxon must do something!" Nope, duck the media.




That's a misunderstanding, but your mind is probably made up.
Winston is first and foremost the Deputy leader & a Minister in this 54th NZ government & bound by collective agreement.
If Winston just wanted to remain outside the govt and no more than leader of a political party he had that choice.

As Prime Minister, Chris Luxon is definitely responsible for the Ministers in his govt including Winston Peters & Seymour, in the same way previous PM's like John Key & Chris Hipkins have required Ministers to resign for breaches of Cabinet responsibility.
It will be interesting to see how far Winston pushes Luxon & how much or little control Luxon has over his Cabinet.

[jonu]

That's a misunderstanding, but your mind is probably made up.
Winston is first and foremost the Deputy leader & a Minister in this 54th NZ government & bound by collective agreement.
If Winston just wanted to remain outside the govt and no more than leader of a political party he had that choice.

As Prime Minister, Chris Luxon is definitely responsible for the Ministers in his govt including Winston Peters & Seymour, in the same way previous PM's like John Key & Chris Hipkins have required Ministers to resign for breaches of Cabinet responsibility.
It will be interesting to see how far Winston pushes Luxon & how much or little control Luxon has over his Cabinet.

Get back to us when Luxon has had to sack 5-6 ministers in 6 months like the Chipster. Keep a tally of how many of the Cabinet survive compared to the Ardern/Hipkins era.

The voice of reason from long time journalist Karl duFresne. Sums the situation up well.

https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2023/11/the-media-needed-line-of-attack-and.html?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email#google_vignette

[Logen Ninefingers]

That's a misunderstanding, but your mind is probably made up.
Winston is first and foremost the Deputy leader & a Minister in this 54th NZ government & bound by collective agreement.
If Winston just wanted to remain outside the govt and no more than leader of a political party he had that choice.

As Prime Minister, Chris Luxon is definitely responsible for the Ministers in his govt including Winston Peters & Seymour, in the same way previous PM's like John Key & Chris Hipkins have required Ministers to resign for breaches of Cabinet responsibility.
It will be interesting to see how far Winston pushes Luxon & how much or little control Luxon has over his Cabinet.

We are still yet to be told just exactly what Winston has apparently done wrong. As far as the public is concerned, he has highlighted 'quid pro quo' between what is supposed to be independent media & the previous government. No, Winston does not need to be told by Luxon that he must 'stop it'. Long may it continue in fact. We just cannot have the Left control the narratives via their media mouthpiece mates; democracy is at stake.

[jonu]

Long time journalist Sean Plunkett, who as a matter of principle, wasn't one of those who took the government bribe to the media, spells it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAo6b63sK_8

[Daytr]

Long time journalist Sean Plunkett, who as a matter of principle, wasn't one of those who took the government bribe to the media, spells it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAo6b63sK_8

Journalist! Haha.
Shock jock & divisive hack.
He would fit right in on Fox News.

[Daytr]

We are still yet to be told just exactly what Winston has apparently done wrong. As far as the public is concerned, he has highlighted 'quid pro quo' between what is supposed to be independent media & the previous government. No, Winston does not need to be told by Luxon that he must 'stop it'. Long may it continue in fact. We just cannot have the Left control the narratives via their media mouthpiece mates; democracy is at stake.

So you speak for the public now?
Get off your high horse.
Trump like bashing media is never a good thing for democracy.

[Daytr]

Get back to us when Luxon has had to sack 5-6 ministers in 6 months like the Chipster. Keep a tally of how many of the Cabinet survive compared to the Ardern/Hipkins era.

The voice of reason from long time journalist Karl duFresne. Sums the situation up well.

https://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2023/11/the-media-needed-line-of-attack-and.html?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email#google_vignette

Any 'journalist ' that starts off with 'the left wing media pack' has lost his ability to be independent. Which left wing media pack is he referring to exactly?

Luxon has to hold the coalition together for that long first. Or should I say Winston does, as he's running the show.

All anyone is talking about is Winston Peters. The old rogue knows how to steal the limelight.
Luxon is grasping at Peters coat tails as the old codger has stormed to center stage.
Meanwhile Seymour's blood pressure will be through the roof due & his blood boiling seeing his nemis show the apprentice how it's done.

Ugly as it is, it's the Winston Peter's show.

Nha mihi

[Balance]

You go, Winston!

The woke leftist losers are feeling the heat and they do not like it one bit. They fed off the bribes handed to them by Ardern and are now trying to hide their complicity in implementing the hidden Maorification agenda of Ardern & Hipkins.

Fascinating despite all the leftist outcry that not one has dared to take a case against him.

One must wonder why.

What we have though is the likes of Kris Faafoi’s appointed Andrew Shaw outing himself as a rabid woke leftist, totally pro-Labour & sitting on the board of NZ on Air.

The leftist media can rage and rave as much as they like but the writing is on the wall for them. And just like Andrew Shaw, they will wilt one by one.

Very very satisfying.

Go Winston!

https://scontent.fakl1-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/405283441_362269052833379_1847252311271285130_n.jp g?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=t1WMVqCqQZYAX9En0w2&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl1-4.fna&oh=00_AfDL8FvCEYdpOeuaUUN6-196yqFk_--W8QieeoH7kedzwA&oe=656BC54B

[Logen Ninefingers]

So you speak for the public now?
Get off your high horse.
Trump like bashing media is never a good thing for democracy.

It's the media that are doing the bashing pal: 'Right wing bad, Left wing good'. The public must be sick of it because the Herald cannot give subscriptions away & Stuff is begging for money.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Any 'journalist ' that starts off with 'the left wing media pack' has lost his ability to be independent. Which left wing media pack is he referring to exactly?

Luxon has to hold the coalition together for that long first. Or should I say Winston does, as he's running the show.

All anyone is talking about is Winston Peters. The old rogue knows how to steal the limelight.
Luxon is grasping at Peters coat tails as the old codger has stormed to center stage.
Meanwhile Seymour's blood pressure will be through the roof due & his blood boiling seeing his nemis show the apprentice how it's done.

Ugly as it is, it's the Winston Peter's show.

Nha mihi

You're just beating it up that Luxon even gives a toss about what Winston may say. It's a narrative you / the media / Hipkins have cooked up about 'chaos' and Luxon frantically running after Winston.....it's all a fantasy. It's just a crock of c-rap that your media mates keep pushing and probably bugger all people are actually buying.

[blackcap]

So you speak for the public now?
Get off your high horse.
Trump like bashing media is never a good thing for democracy.

It is in this case where our media have taken bribes and are partisan like no body's business. The media need to go, and or be replaced. At present they are just Labour puppets.

[blackcap]

It's the media that are doing the bashing pal: 'Right wing bad, Left wing good'. The public must be sick of it because the Herald cannot give subscriptions away & Stuff is begging for money.

Stuff is going to go out of business once the PJIF money runs out. Good riddance to Sinead.

[Balance]

Stuff is going to go out of business once the PJIF money runs out. Good riddance to Sinead.

Matter of time - not if but when.

https://scontent.fakl1-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/382478784_329664039427214_3718776144838254011_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=4GQR1TA0ltIAX9_Gg9C&_nc_oc=AQmxC1MUN9VDvR-qPjXkC8G6YHj76juvhW6JJ6FaOOA51qukFidp9oLXoq-Ufp7UDZEjyR1wuZePFF6NzTfVnyyf&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl1-4.fna&oh=00_AfCjkhMtCZThfYPdYXrRJrgmmUL889A24RIGSQg_H9bl fQ&oe=656B1665

[Daytr]

You're just beating it up that Luxon even gives a toss about what Winston may say. It's a narrative you / the media / Hipkins have cooked up about 'chaos' and Luxon frantically running after Winston.....it's all a fantasy. It's just a crock of c-rap that your media mates keep pushing and probably bugger all people are actually buying.

Nope, you are in complete denial.
All this thread has been about pretty much is Winston. Says it all really.

[ynot]

Nope, you are in complete denial.
All this thread has been about pretty much is Winston. Says it all really.

Keep digging mate.

[777]

Gosh Daytr gets worked up.

It's a good job Luxon doesn't have to deal with him.

[Balance]

Nope, you are in complete denial.
All this thread has been about pretty much is Winston. Says it all really.

From the very same Daytr :




Luxon's preferred PM polling still on life support. He is obviously the problem for National, although I don't think Willis would be any better. She doesn't come across as that bright to me.

You sure read the political settings out there so well - NOT! :t_up:

[Bjauck]

We are still yet to be told just exactly what Winston has apparently done wrong. As far as the public is concerned, he has highlighted 'quid pro quo' between what is supposed to be independent media & the previous government. No, Winston does not need to be told by Luxon that he must 'stop it'. Long may it continue in fact. We just cannot have the Left control the narratives via their media mouthpiece mates; democracy is at stake. We may well like an “independent” media. However it is enshrined nowhere. So whoever owns and/or pays the piper can call the tune.

Loose Cannon Winston is part of a coalition and the Cabinet. So whatever any of them do reflects on the Government.

[Balance]

We may well like an “independent” media. However it is enshrined nowhere. So whoever owns and/or pays the piper can call the tune.

Loose Cannon Winston is part of a coalition and the Cabinet. So whatever any of them do reflects on the Government.

Winston is playing to his voters' base and rightly so, is questioning the integrity & independence of the woke leftist media who received funding with Labour’s hidden political agenda as conditions.

What's loose about what he is saying and asking?

Posters like Daytr and Blue Skies are simply parroting what Labour & Hipkins have sent to their card carrying Labour memberships to propagate out there. Same with the woke leftist media - hardly surrising, is it?

The woke leftist media are in panic mode because they have been caught out and there will be more revelations for sure of just how they were bribed into promoting Ardern's hidden Maorification agenda.

For example, Andrew Shaw's behavior yesterday surely confirmed for all to see just how complicit NZ on Air has been in helping to promote the hidden agenda.

It is extraordinary for a board member of NZ on Air, appointed to oversee government funding into TV programs, to be outed for harboring such rabid anti-National/ACT/NZF views. Where's the insightful media coverage of how NZ on Air has allocated its funding in the last few years?

You go, Winston. Give them hell.

[Daytr]

If you have to consistently insult other posters, it just displays a weak argument.
Applies to a few on here.

[Baa_Baa]

The woke leftist media are in panic mode because they have been caught out and there will be more revelations for sure of just how they were bribed into promoting Ardern's hidden Maorification agenda.

Apologies for cherry picking your post, but I don't think that's the core reason for their panic now, which can be seen in the shrill commentary across all mainstream media right now, that enjoyed the largess of Govt funding 'with compromise' of their core fundamental principles of journalistic unbiased factual integrity.

It is because they know that their funding has dried up, gone, and they're all marginal viable businesses, which without said funding are at risk of going broke.

All of them are looking at an annus horribilus that their motives and integrity were bought-off by the money that the government at the time threw at them, and their behaviours in response which are on record for anyone to see, and now, their lifeline funding is about to be rescinded.

A desperate situation for the media who chose funding survival over preservation of the integrity of the fourth estate.

[Balance]

Be kind to criminals as they too are victims of crime - the pro- crime and pro-gang policies of Ardern, Hipkins and Labour delivering big time for NZers :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/nomads-gang-members-sentenced-after-violent-taxing-of-south-taranaki-homeowner/G7VPBJ24HVGXRCLL4X275SU5JY/

Excerpt :

As Holden, Maraki and Wright-Macdonald were taken away to begin their jail sentences, they turned and delivered the public gallery middle finger salutes and gave a garbled gang cry, which was returned by the members of the public.

“Yeah New Zealand, we own jail,” one of the men yelled.

——————/———-/——————/———-

And there are those who still want Wokester Coster to remain as Police Commissioner.

Let’s hope Mitchell finds a way to get rid of the Wokester Police Commissioner - he is not fit to hold that position after allowing policing by consent to favour criminals, rather than law abiding citizens who look to the police for protection from the thugs, gangs and bad eggs.

[Getty]

I did not think the narrative and outlook of a nation could be bought for $110M.

I thought it would take a war.

I was wrong.

In a move Goebbels would have been proud of, Comrade Cinders and her sycophants turned much of the populace into the same.

Instead of being fellow citizens, Cinders and her crew elevated Maori to special status, with special knowledge.

To be consulted and paid for everything from a signpost to a subdivision, and of course school curriculum.

If you spoke against it, you were deemed racist.

How perverse and bizarre.

Yet now, as the idealogy is unravelled, the brainwashed and the likes of Tuk Morgan are claiming division.

How perverse and bizarre.

[ynot]

I did not think the narrative and outlook of a nation could be bought for $110M.

I thought it would take a war.

I was wrong.

In a move Goebbels would have been proud of, Comrade Cinders and her sycophants turned much of the populace into the same.

Instead of being fellow citizens, Cinders and her crew elevated Maori to special status, with special knowledge.

To be consulted and paid for everything from a signpost to a subdivision, and of course school curriculum.

If you spoke against it, you were deemed racist.

How perverse and bizarre.

Yet now, as the idealogy is unravelled, the brainwashed and the likes of Tuk Morgan are claiming division.

How perverse and bizarre.

Interesting times indeed. Finally common sense prevails. Loving Winston's disdain of the left.

[Baa_Baa]

I did not think the narrative and outlook of a nation could be bought for $110M.

I thought it would take a war.

I was wrong.

In a move Goebbels would have been proud of, Comrade Cinders and her sycophants turned much of the populace into the same.

Instead of being fellow citizens, Cinders and her crew elevated Maori to special status, with special knowledge.

To be consulted and paid for everything from a signpost to a subdivision, and of course school curriculum.

If you spoke against it, you were deemed racist.

How perverse and bizarre.

Yet now, as the idealogy is unravelled, the brainwashed and the likes of Tuk Morgan are claiming division.

How perverse and bizarre.

It is only just beginning.

[Bjauck]

Interesting times indeed. Finally common sense prevails. Loving Winston's disdain of the left.
New found disdain. He of course helped Ardern get the Treasure before. Winston has disdain for anything that blocks him. So both sides should buckle up!

[Bjauck]

Winston is playing to his voters' base and rightly so, is questioning the integrity & independence of the woke leftist media who received funding with Labour’s hidden political agenda as conditions.

What's loose about what he is saying and asking?

Posters like Daytr and Blue Skies are simply parroting what Labour & Hipkins have sent to their card carrying Labour memberships to propagate out there. Same with the woke leftist media - hardly surrising, is it?

The woke leftist media are in panic mode because they have been caught out and there will be more revelations for sure of just how they were bribed into promoting Ardern's hidden Maorification agenda.

For example, Andrew Shaw's behavior yesterday surely confirmed for all to see just how complicit NZ on Air has been in helping to promote the hidden agenda.

It is extraordinary for a board member of NZ on Air, appointed to oversee government funding into TV programs, to be outed for harboring such rabid anti-National/ACT/NZF views. Where's the insightful media coverage of how NZ on Air has allocated its funding in the last few years?

You go, Winston. Give them hell.
Corruption and bribery are loaded words. Maybe not specific enough to get court cases. However you cannot corrupt what does not exist. And government spending to get policy implemented is not bribery.

I thought buying public interest journalism provided they implemented government policy was frankly Soviet-style. However no NZ laws were broken to achieve it, as far as I have read. Maybe Winston’s government will introduce reforms cementing a free media free from government influence. Anh maybe he should help establish a NZ version of the BBC, CBC, and ABC ringfenced from government and private influence, yet fully funded from tax revenues and some advertising.

[ynot]

Corruption and bribery are loaded words. Maybe not specific enough to get court cases. However you cannot corrupt what does not exist. And government spending to get policy implemented is not bribery.
I thought buying public interest journalism provided they implemented government policy was frankly Soviet-style. However no NZ laws were broken to achieve it, as far as I have read. Maybe Winston’s government will introduce reforms cementing a free media free from government influence. Anh maybe he should help establish a NZ version of the BBC, CBC, and ABC ringfenced from government and private influence, yet fully funded from tax revenues and some advertising.
And government spending to get policy implemented is not bribery.
Whatever it takes, Ardern, Hipkins playbook.

[Daytr]

Apologies for cherry picking your post, but I don't think that's the core reason for their panic now, which can be seen in the shrill commentary across all mainstream media right now, that enjoyed the largess of Govt funding 'with compromise' of their core fundamental principles of journalistic unbiased factual integrity.

It is because they know that their funding has dried up, gone, and they're all marginal viable businesses, which without said funding are at risk of going broke.

All of them are looking at an annus horribilus that their motives and integrity were bought-off by the money that the government at the time threw at them, and their behaviours in response which are on record for anyone to see, and now, their lifeline funding is about to be rescinded.

A desperate situation for the media who chose funding survival over preservation of the integrity of the fourth estate.

Where did they compromise their principles or journalistic unbiased integrity?
The conditions were that the Treaty of Waitangi was honoured & that there was coverage of Maori issues.
This is quite reasonable when receiving public funding. I have chaired charities that has received public funding before and there were all sorts of conditions in the term sheet that had to be signed off prior to accepting the funding.
Honoring the Treaty is not a Labour policy it is enshrined in the Constitution Act & in most policy and law that has come from either side of the house.


I did not think the narrative and outlook of a nation could be bought for $110M.

I thought it would take a war.

I was wrong.

In a move Goebbels would have been proud of, Comrade Cinders and her sycophants turned much of the populace into the same.

Instead of being fellow citizens, Cinders and her crew elevated Maori to special status, with special knowledge.

To be consulted and paid for everything from a signpost to a subdivision, and of course school curriculum.

If you spoke against it, you were deemed racist.

How perverse and bizarre.

Yet now, as the idealogy is unravelled, the brainwashed and the likes of Tuk Morgan are claiming division.

How perverse and bizarre.

Actually the Nazis threatened & killed the media. So get a grip. The only person threatening the media is Wnston Peters.

[nztx]

Former Minister of aborted SOE Media Merger C*ck-ups drops a Spewy:


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/willie-jackson-describes-winston-peters-behaviour-as-worrying/S3AF6DZFTVBORNLU4E3ZWDMMMY/

Willie Jackson describes Winston Peters behaviour as ‘worrying




The guy is sort of losing the plot here

there have been many times .. ;)


This is deeply worrying behaviour

Someone is a worry when they're out of the spotlight :)


Government is prepared to lie and deceive right from the start


New painkillers required somewhere ? :)


Hullo - aint that Labour who B*llshi^^ed everyone from the start then promptly failed on just
about every front before the pillion passengers started jumping or being pushed ? ;)

Everyone must be embarrassed to have lost this former extraordinaire Media Minister Mogul of Merger failures & Spin from Govt Front benches and after a period where State Owned Media performance turned badly to Cr@p in a sea of cultural junk & telemarketing blurb so abismal that many avoid it ;)

NOT

Do everyone a favour & get a Professional to check out your own plot to see if anything is missing or has fallen off - Willie ;)

[Bjauck]

Where did they compromise their principles or journalistic unbiased integrity?
The conditions were that the Treaty of Waitangi was honoured & that there was coverage of Maori issues.
This is quite reasonable when receiving public funding. I have chaired charities that has received public funding before and there were all sorts of conditions in the term sheet that had to be signed off prior to accepting the funding.
Honoring the Treaty is not a Labour policy it is enshrined in the Constitution Act & in most policy and law that has come from either side of the house.



Actually the Nazis threatened & killed the media. So get a grip. The only person threatening the media is Wnston Peters. Honouring the Treaty is a government responsibility. In effect the journalists who signed up, and accepted the government’s policy conditions became at best quasi-independent. Some charities too become quasi-government departments in the areas funded by government.

[Daytr]

Honouring the Treaty is a government responsibility. In effect the journalists who signed up, and accepted the government’s policy conditions became at best quasi-independent. Some charities too become quasi-government departments in the areas funded by government.

Morena Bjauck, I think that's a big leap.
The conditions didn't prevent the media from criticizing or investigating the Government.
It also didn't prevent them investigating or criticizing various Maori issues, but it did stipulate they were covered.

[Bjauck]

Morena Bjauck, I think that's a big leap.
The conditions didn't prevent the media from criticizing or investigating the Government.
It also didn't prevent them investigating or criticizing various Maori issues, but it did stipulate they were covered.Tena koutou katoa
Directing topics to be covered though is a control. However true, the copy did not need to be government approved.

[Daytr]

Tena koutou katoa
Directing topics to be covered though is a control. However true, the copy did not need to be government approved.

Considering the NZ Herald was started as a propaganda tool by some of the founding fathers of Auckland to paint their plunder in the Northern Waikato in a favorable light, it seems we have turned full circle.

Kia pai tō rā

[Bjauck]

Considering the NZ Herald was started as a propaganda tool by some of the founding fathers of Auckland to paint their plunder in the Northern Waikato in a favorable light, it seems we have turned full circle.

Kia pai tō rā
Vested interests permeate the media.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Where did they compromise their principles or journalistic unbiased integrity?
The conditions were that the Treaty of Waitangi was honoured & that there was coverage of Maori issues.
This is quite reasonable when receiving public funding. I have chaired charities that has received public funding before and there were all sorts of conditions in the term sheet that had to be signed off prior to accepting the funding.
Honoring the Treaty is not a Labour policy it is enshrined in the Constitution Act & in most policy and law that has come from either side of the house.



Actually the Nazis threatened & killed the media. So get a grip. The only person threatening the media is Wnston Peters.

Winston Peters threatened to kill the media like a Nazi? First I’ve heard of it.
Leftist hysteria escalates when their propaganda mouthpieces are being intensively questioned & pilloried. The media are actually just receiving a taste of their own medicine. The majority of Kiwi’s say “more please!”

[Logen Ninefingers]

This is all just setting the stage for the damming up of the river of public money flowing to the media leeches. First condemn the PIJF, then cut off every avenue whereby taxpayer money is flowing into the coffers of what are supposed to be private businesses. And when ‘Stuff’ goes under they will know that there won’t be a bail-out. They made their bed.

[Balance]

What has happened with Tory Whanau (she has outed herself as an alcoholic & a drunk) speaks volume of how the woke left operates in NZ, especially left leaning Stuff.

Remember how her supporters leapt to her defense after her first drunken episode back in July thus year?

Anyone criticizing her behavior was either racist or sexist because she is a wahine. The same BS used whenever Ardern was criticized for being a spin artist and liar.

Best example : https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132472069/the-pearlclutching-over-the-mayors-tipsy-night-out

Now that the truth is out, let's see what the left does.

[blackcap]

What has happened with Tory Whanau (she has outed herself as an alcoholic & a drunk) speaks volume of how the woke left operates in NZ, especially left leaning Stuff.

Remember how her supporters leapt to her defense after her first drunken episode back in July thus year?

Anyone criticizing her behavior was either racist or sexist because she is a wahine. The same BS used whenever Ardern was criticized for being a spin artist and liar.

Best example : https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/132472069/the-pearlclutching-over-the-mayors-tipsy-night-out

Now that the truth is out, let's see what the left does.

All it does is strengthen Peter's position. He is looking more and more correct with his assertions.

[Daytr]

Winston Peters threatened to kill the media like a Nazi? First I’ve heard of it.
Leftist hysteria escalates when their propaganda mouthpieces are being intensively questioned & pilloried. The media are actually just receiving a taste of their own medicine. The majority of Kiwi’s say “more please!”

You do this often. Misquote people deliberately.
Have some integrity.

[Daytr]

All it does is strengthen Peter's position. He is looking more and more correct with his assertions.

Back to Peters once again....
It's all about Peters to the chagrin of Luxon & Seymour.

[Balance]

All it does is strengthen Peter's position. He is looking more and more correct with his assertions.

Plenty of revelations to come out I reckon over the next 2 years as all the cover-ups (facilitated by the bribed media) are surfaced by the new government.

Tory Whanau is but the first example.

[Balance]

Back to Peters once again....
It's all about Peters to the chagrin of Luxon & Seymour.

From the very same Daytr :




Luxon's preferred PM polling still on life support. He is obviously the problem for National, although I don't think Willis would be any better. She doesn't come across as that bright to me.

You sure read the political settings out there so well - NOT! :t_up:

[nztx]

Back to Peters once again....
It's all about Peters to the chagrin of Luxon & Seymour.


After a 6 year constant diet of the most transparent ever smoke & mirrors, some might still possess
tendency to swallow anything ;)

[Blue Skies]

I think its important to know Luxon was deliberately lying to NZ'ers yesterday & repeating Big Tobacco talking points while trying to defend the indefensible repealing of the Smokefree 2025 legislation.

Luxon repeatedly referred to the unintended consequences of reducing the number of outlets selling tobacco from thousands down to about 600 would mean & he kept emphasising this, ONE outlet in Northland would become the target of gangs.

I don't believe for a moment he doesn't know the number for Northland would be 16 outlets, but 1 sounds better!

Under Smokefree legislation the nicotine content of cigarettes will be so heavily reduced, it's even below the level to become addictive.

The nicotine addiction & hit is what drives the demand from smokers so they are not going to be worth anything to smokers & gangs won't be interested. Why would they bother if there's no real demand.
They have much easier ways to make money.


Meanwhile calls from Health professionals for the new Minister of Health, Shane Reti or Shane Cigaretti as he's being called, are growing.
And Health professional around the world are astounded.

The govt will have a real fight on it's hands if it goes ahead with this despicable policy.
I know many don't want a paltry tax cut funded by a govt which will deliberately knowingly increase the numbers of people with lung cancer to pay for it.




https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/retired-doctor-calls-for-health-minister-shane-reti-to-resign-over-scrapping-of-smokefree-legislation.html

[jonu]

I think its important to know Luxon was deliberately lying to NZ'ers yesterday & repeating Big Tobacco talking points while trying to defend the indefensible repealing of the Smokefree 2025 legislation.

Luxon repeatedly referred to the unintended consequences of reducing the number of outlets selling tobacco from thousands down to about 600 would mean & he kept emphasising this, ONE outlet in Northland would become the target of gangs.

I don't believe for a moment he doesn't know the number for Northland would be 16 outlets, but 1 sounds better!

Under Smokefree legislation the nicotine content of cigarettes will be so heavily reduced, it's even below the level to become addictive.

The nicotine addiction & hit is what drives the demand from smokers so they are not going to be worth anything to smokers & gangs won't be interested. Why would they bother if there's no real demand.
They have much easier ways to make money.


Meanwhile calls from Health professionals for the new Minister of Health, Shane Reti or Shane Cigaretti as he's being called, are growing.
And Health professional around the world are astounded.

The govt will have a real fight on it's hands if it goes ahead with this despicable policy.
I for one don't want a paltry tax cut funded by a govt which will deliberately knowingly increase the numbers of people with lung cancer to pay for it.

You, and our bribed media, are assuming Labour's law would have worked. Luxon says he and the coalition partners are being consistent in that they opposed it being passed due to it being bad law. My understanding is that it also didn't address vaping.

As for the 16 outlets, define Northland for me. Perhaps enlighten us where they are going.

[Balance]

Plenty of revelations to come out I reckon over the next 2 years as all the cover-ups (facilitated by the bribed media) are surfaced by the new government.

Tory Whanau is but the first example.

Gentrack chief executive Gary Miles says the Government should investigate the “strange” closed tender for the $107 million Three Waters software project, which saw Koch Industries-owned Infor selected, BusinessDesk reports.

A closed tender process saw US giant Infor win the cornerstone Three Waters software project worth $107 million out of a total of more than an estimated $530m needed for operational software systems for the 10 proposed new national water entities.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/three-waters-107m-software-contract-should-be-probed-says-gentrack/K7ZJINM6MFCMVB3G4T3RKZICSQ/

[Balance]

I know many don't want a paltry tax cut funded by a govt which will deliberately knowingly increase the numbers of people with lung cancer to pay for it.



What about the tens of thousands of NZers who are suffering and dying from the te WTF Ora's failed Ardern, Hipkins & Labour healthcare experiment?

I know many who don't want such a centralized entity funded to the tune of billions of dollars which is contributing to so much increase in suffering and deaths.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/479506/minister-andrew-little-left-in-no-doubt-over-despair-outrage-in-health-workforce


https://otaihangasecondopinion.files.wordpress.com/2022/07/jeff-bell-cartoon-health-minister-stuff-7-august-2022.jpg?w=1024

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-act-and-nz-first-government-andrew-coster-trevor-mallard-adrian-orr-and-more-who-could-be-in-the-firing-line-and-why/VSC4PQL5RJFTZMXDQU53UGN3LQ/

Are Andrew Coster, Trevor Mallard, Adrian Orr in the firing line in National-Act-NZ First government?


Had to come, didn't it .. Bring it on ;)

Nothing like a bit of duckshooting and lining up the potential targets in a row :)

Adrian Awesome seems to be playing nice all of a sudden :)
Must be a bit of a pain in the ass after all the carefree games with Fatbum Robbo of past ;)

Twevor seems to have lost his voice or been immersed in an Irish brook :)
Hope the fish didn't make a big mistake & mistake him for a bad gardener ..

Andrew seems to have pulled his head down fast & the cops are going hard out trying to make
good impression on getting their 'naughty boys caught reports' into the Media Scandal Rags :)

[blackcap]

I don't believe for a moment he doesn't know the number for Northland would be 16 outlets, but 1 sounds better!






https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/11/retired-doctor-calls-for-health-minister-shane-reti-to-resign-over-scrapping-of-smokefree-legislation.html

So the law would leave only 60 outlets in all of NZ. You reackon Northland would receive 16 of the 60?

[Daytr]

So David Seymour doesn't even believe the media were bribed.
It appears some of his supporters on here are out of step with their political party leader.

That's a little bit embarrassing for all the rabid posters & conspiracy theories on here making outlandish claims of bribery and bias etc.
Really some of the comments on here have been quite pathetic, others dangerous. I.e we should do away with the media.

I find it astonishing that those who constantly speak out freedom this, freedom that, only want to hear opinions or reporting that supports their warped view of the world.
What is astonishing is the irony.

Division in the leadership ranks of the coalition already. Crikey the honeymoon period has only just begun!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/david-seymour-calls-winston-peters-comments-on-public-interest-journalism-fund-criticisms-not-quite-plausible/FCIE6DU7Z5HUNFNECWIYH7UXW4/?fbclid=IwAR2aeB0YlvLh2f4JZYM9E0lROv5JH4s-tAAcTSuqk-FX1b-HdVPPU4MvxQg

Kei te pai

[Balance]

So David Seymour doesn't even believe the media were bribed.
It appears some of his supporters on here are out of step with their political party leader.

That's a little bit embarrassing for all the rabid posters & conspiracy theories on here making outlandish claims of bribery and bias etc.
Really some of the comments on here have been quite pathetic, others dangerous. I.e we should do away with the media.

I find it astonishing that those who constantly speak out freedom this, freedom that, only want to hear opinions or reporting that supports their warped view of the world.
What is astonishing is the irony.

Division in the leadership ranks of the coalition already. Crikey the honeymoon period has only just begun!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/david-seymour-calls-winston-peters-comments-on-public-interest-journalism-fund-criticisms-not-quite-plausible/FCIE6DU7Z5HUNFNECWIYH7UXW4/?fbclid=IwAR2aeB0YlvLh2f4JZYM9E0lROv5JH4s-tAAcTSuqk-FX1b-HdVPPU4MvxQg

Kei te pai

From the very same Daytr :




Luxon's preferred PM polling still on life support. He is obviously the problem for National, although I don't think Willis would be any better. She doesn't come across as that bright to me.

And Luxon wiped the floor with Hipkins and Robertson at the election.

You sure read the political settings out there so well - NOT! :t_up:

[Daytr]

From the very same Daytr :



And Luxon wiped the floor with Hipkins and Robertson at the election.

You sure read the political settings out there so well - NOT! :t_up:

Is there a rule about repeating yourself?
If not there should be as it is really tedious.

It's also an indication of mental decline, so it may pay to get checked out.

Perhaps ask about the deep seated (pardon the pun) fixation you have with others kissing or licking your arse.
That's a deep dive that one. 🤣
Oops I did it again...

[Balance]

Is there a rule about repeating yourself?
If not their should be as it is really tedious.

It's also an indication of mental decline, so it may pay to get checked out.

Perhaps ask about the deep seated (pardon the pun) fixation you have with others kissing or licking your arse.
That's a deep dive that one. ��

Goes to how bad is your political reading and judgement - which is just as bad as your devotion to Labour, especially Hipkins and Robertson.

kihi toku tuara

[Logen Ninefingers]

If there are any right of centre people still buying mainstream newspapers then they are, quite frankly, bloody idiots.

[blackcap]

If there are any right of centre people still buying mainstream newspapers then they are, quite frankly, bloody idiots.

I stopped consuming MSM about 7 years ago. All forms, STuff, one news, 3 news, newsroom etc. Get my news from other sources.

[Blue Skies]

You, and our bribed media, are assuming Labour's law would have worked. Luxon says he and the coalition partners are being consistent in that they opposed it being passed due to it being bad law. My understanding is that it also didn't address vaping.

As for the 16 outlets, define Northland for me. Perhaps enlighten us where they are going.



OK, a little education needed on this topic.

Smokefree 2025 is such world leading policy, both the UK & now Australia are going to implement it.

It's been lauded around the world by everybody from Health professionals to the best Public Policy experts, scientists, you name it, everybody EXCEPT the tobacco companies & NZF who quietly slipped it into their policy manifesto just 7 days before the election, after voting had started & with no announcement, AND stupid old Luxon was so greedy for power he agreed to it in coalition negotiations with NZF.
This despite Shane Reti previously supporting it & strongly supporting the heavy reduction in nicotine in the legislation, which makes tobacco a worthless target for criminals.

There'll be very little demand for cigarettes with a fraction of the extremely addictive current nicotine levels allowed.

Vaping by comparison reasonably harmless, nicotine itself is not poisonous, its the tar, arsenic, carbon monoxide, & 70 known cancer causing compounds in cigarettes which do all the damage.


(You can look up Northland for yourself. )

[Daytr]

Goes to how bad is your political reading and judgement - which is just as bad as your devotion to Labour, especially Hipkins and Robertson.

kihi toku tuara

Ka pai.

Although, as I didn't vote Labour, your assertion about Labour devotion is unfounded.
But that's par for the course for your posts.
Completely inaccurate.

[jonu]

OK, a little education needed on this topic.

Smokefree 2025 is such world leading policy, both the UK & now Australia are going to implement it.

It's been lauded around the world by everybody from Health professionals to the best Public Policy experts, scientists, you name it, everybody EXCEPT the tobacco companies & NZF who quietly slipped it into their policy manifesto just 7 days before the election, after voting had started & with no announcement, AND stupid old Luxon was so greedy for power he agreed to it in coalition negotiations with NZF.
This despite Shane Reti previously supporting it & strongly supporting the heavy reduction in nicotine in the legislation, which makes tobacco a worthless target for criminals.

There'll be very little demand for cigarettes with a fraction of the extremely addictive current nicotine levels allowed.

Vaping by comparison reasonably harmless, nicotine itself is not poisonous, its the tar, arsenic, carbon monoxide, & 70 known cancer causing compounds in cigarettes which do all the damage.


(You can look up Northland for yourself. )

Luxon was opposed to the Bill in the first place due to it being bad law.

Vaping is not thought to be harmless and only time will tell as to how bad it is.

It was you who claimed there would 16 sites in Northland. Where? The Northland electorate covers from part of the Kaipara to the top. But excludes Whangarei. Are the sites you speak of going to be in Whangarei?

[Balance]

Kiri Allan, ex Minister of Justice, pleading not guilty as she wants to ‘test a principle of the law’.

Showing her and Labour’s true colours that they do not want the law to be applied to them when they are in violation of the law.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/kiri-allan-car-crash-former-justice-minister-explains-why-shes-pleading-not-guilty-to-car-crash-charges/QVKEJEBHJJCRDEBOWWDY4KDJ7E/

To recap :

She was tipsy,

drove with excess alcohol in her system,

crashed the ministerial car against a stationery Ute & shunted it several meters,

did a runner,

was tracked down by a police officer with a tracker dog,

refused to accompany the officer

and was booked for unlawful conduct on several counts.

Now, she is pleading not guilty as she wants to test a ‘principle of law’.

You cannot make this stuff up!

[Daytr]

If there are any right of centre people still buying mainstream newspapers then they are, quite frankly, bloody idiots.

Yes let's all do what Logen Ninefingers says, as he thinks he speaks for everyone.
Boy the ego on this one...

Didn't you promise to stop posting after the election? Perhaps you are an early indicator of things to come from NAF.
A string of broken promises.

But hey keep breaking that promise & tell us all what to do & think, but you maybe shocked to know the power you perceive is bouncing around contained within your own cranium.

Between your head & Balance's arse, I'm sure an arrangement could be made, that one fits inside the other.

And guess what, it's not you that's going to get what he wants out of this fusion.

Call it your own echo chamber if you will, but don't be surprised if there is some blowback.
Hey but at least your hands will be free to give Balance a good spanking, the only unfortunate thing is, I have a strong suspicion he may enjoy that.

Off for some kai.

[iceman]

Honouring the Treaty is a government responsibility. In effect the journalists who signed up, and accepted the government’s policy conditions became at best quasi-independent. Some charities too become quasi-government departments in the areas funded by government.

All Government for thes 2-3 decades have honoured the Treaty. The just kicked out useless Government changed that to "honouring the principles of the Treaty". That "principles" statement is what the debate is a bout. It is undefined and in the last few years has meant radical interpretations of what the Treaty is about. So media signed up to this without knowing what it even means and those that didn't, were cancelled. It's sad you don;t see the difference.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Do we really need the snot nosed little ginger popping up every day attempting to tell Luxon what to do? The failed former PM - who didn't win an election btw, just tugged his forelock and simpered his way in when JA fled the coop - is yapping like a stray mutt with his media mates happy to give him a platform. This is the guy that the public just booted out of office; who does the cheeky jumped-up mongrel think he is?!

[iceman]

You, and our bribed media, are assuming Labour's law would have worked. Luxon says he and the coalition partners are being consistent in that they opposed it being passed due to it being bad law. My understanding is that it also didn't address vaping.

As for the 16 outlets, define Northland for me. Perhaps enlighten us where they are going.

That's exactly the point. The media and silly Lefties on here are all a few years ahead of themselves assuming Labour's newly voted for but not implemented policy would have worked as they said it would. That would have made it different to all policies that useless bunch implemented. None of them worked as intended.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Yes let's all do what Logen Ninefingers says, as he thinks he speaks for everyone.
Boy the ego on this one...

Didn't you promise to stop posting after the election? Perhaps you are an early indicator of things to come from NAF.
A string of broken promises.

But hey keep breaking that promise & tell us all what to do & think, but you maybe shocked to know the power you perceive is bouncing around contained within your own cranium.

Between your head & Balance's arse, I'm sure an arrangement could be made, that one fits inside the other.

And guess what, it's not you that's going to get what he wants out of this fusion.

Call it your own echo chamber if you will, but don't be surprised if there is some blowback.
Hey but at least your hands will be free to give Balance a good spanking, the only unfortunate thing is, I have a strong suspicion he may enjoy that.

Off for some kai.

What a sick post. Perhaps stop thinking about other peoples arses & stick to the topic.

[Daytr]

Do we really need the snot nosed little ginger popping up every day to tell Luxon what to do? The former PM - who didn't win an election btw, just tugged his forelock and simpered his way in to deal with JA's mess - is yapping like a stray mutt with his media mates happy to give him a platform. This is the guy that the public just booted out of office; who does the cheeky jumped-up mongrel think he is?!

Well someone is losing the plot and it's not Hipkins...

How dare the opposition leader speak out against the Government.
What do you think this is? A democracy???

Be careful not to get too overheated up Balance's .... heat & gases aren't a good mix.

[iceman]

So David Seymour doesn't even believe the media were bribed.
It appears some of his supporters on here are out of step with their political party leader.



Too funny. So you assume all posters on here just parrot what the Leader of the party you think they voted for say. I know that is what you Labourites do, but it doesn't apply to all people. Some people think for themselves.

[Daytr]

Too funny. So you assume all posters on here just parrot what the Leader of the party you think they voted for say. I know that is what you Laabourites do, but it doesn't apply to all people. Some people think for themselves.

Hhhm a few issues with your post iceman.
1) not much thinking going on, it's just parroting what one of the other leaders said, without any evidence I might add.

2) Wouldn't a Labourite actually vote Labour? 🤣
Just a minor point...🙄

This is easy & fun & I'm learning te reo as I go.

A muri ake nei

[Daytr]

What a sick post. Perhaps stop thinking about other peoples arses & stick to the topic.

It's a bit hard when it's all Balance talks about.
It's only sick if you take it seriously.
Which anyone with a half brain wouldn't.

But you know what is disgusting.
Feigning disgust.
Deliberately misquoting people to make out they made serious accusations when they didn't.
Slurring the police force suggesting corruption took place in the Kiri Allen case.
Lying about not going to post after the election.

They are all disgusting traits & actions.
They all display a complete lack of integrity.

[Daytr]

Let's get back on track.
Luxon has just issued his 100 day plan
Much of which is about appealing Labour policies & there is some positives in that, (something a lefty Labourite wouldn't say) some negatives as well such as the smoking ban.

But can we concentrate on the constructive.
What are the new policies they are introducing that people see as positives?

I'm doing your job for you NAF supporters.

[fungus pudding]

Let's get back on track.
Luxon has just issued his 100 day plan
Much of which is about appealing Labour policies & there is some positives in that, (something a lefty Labourite wouldn't say) some negatives as well such as the smoking ban.

But can we concentrate on the constructive.
What are the new policies they are introducing that people see as positives?

I'm doing your job for you NAF supporters.

What are these 'appealing Labour policies'?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Hhhm a few issues with your post iceman.
1) not much thinking going on, it's just parroting what one of the other leaders said, without any evidence I might add.

2) Wouldn't a Labourite actually vote Labour? ��
Just a minor point...��

This is easy & fun & I'm learning te reo as I go.

A muri ake nei

Of course you are. You are as woke as it gets. A real hardcore Lefty virtue signaller.

[Daytr]

What are these 'appealing Labour policies'?

Appealing I.e reversing. Like court of appeals., perhaps repeal was the correct term.
And believe it or not I am in favour of some of those appeals.

Well there goes concentrating on the constructive.
The question if you read again was about the new Government's policies not Labour's policies & not the repeal of existing policy but new policies from the new Government.

Gawd you have to really help the blinkered along...

I will add one for a starter for 10.
The reduction of government expenditure on bureaucrats and consultants. I applaud that if it's done in the right areas.

[Daytr]

Of course you are. You are as woke as it gets. A real hardcore Lefty virtue signaller.

Nice ridiculous insults. Do you have anything legitimate to add?

[Baa_Baa]

Appealing I.e reversing. Like court of appeals.
And believe it or not I am in favour of some of those appeals.

Well there goes concentrating on the constructive.
The question if you read again was about the new Government's policies not Labour's policies & not the repeal of existing policy but new policies from the new Government.

Gawd you have to really help the blinkered along...

I will add one for a starter for 10.
The reduction of government expenditure on bureaucrats and consultants. I applaud that if it's done in the right areas.

Thick as, thick does, digging the hole deeper, rebounding with abuse. The word you are looking for is 'repeal' (the law).

[Daytr]

Thick as, thick does, digging the hole deeper, rebounding with abuse. The word you are looking for is 'repeal' (the law).

You appeal to repeal. As it hasn't been done yet appeal is actually the correct term.
Has 3 waters been repealed yet?
So perhaps think before you use the word thick.
But I can see you are really trying to be constructive...

[Baa_Baa]

You appeal to repeal. As it hasn't been done yet appeal is actually the correct term.
Has 3 waters been repealed yet?
So perhaps think before you use the word thick.
But I can see you are really trying to be constructive...

Look a law is repealed in parliament, it has nothing to do with the courts or appeals. You’re talking nonsense

[Daytr]

Look a law is repealed in parliament, it has nothing to do with the courts or appeals. You’re talking nonsense

I didn't say it have anything to do with the court of appeals. I was merely differentiating the same word. I.e appealing as in its liked
& appealing to apply to reverse.

But anyway it's semantics.
What are the new policies in the 100 day plan that people think will make a real difference to every day New Zealanders?

Crikey is it so hard to be positive about the coalition you all voted for?

[ValueNZ]

I didn't say it have anything to do with the court of appeals. I was merely differentiating the same word. I.e appealing as in its liked
& appealing to apply to reverse.

But anyway it's semantics.
What are the new policies in the 100 day plan that people think will make a real difference to every day New Zealanders?

Crikey is it so hard to be positive about the coalition you all voted for?
I'm particularly happy about the RBNZ returning to just focusing on price stability, and no more welfare for the rich via electric car subsidies.

[Blue Skies]

Luxon was opposed to the Bill in the first place due to it being bad law.

Vaping is not thought to be harmless and only time will tell as to how bad it is.

It was you who claimed there would 16 sites in Northland. Where? The Northland electorate covers from part of the Kaipara to the top. But excludes Whangarei. Are the sites you speak of going to be in Whangarei?





You can't tell a Public Health expert or Health professional that reducing the level of the extremely addictive nicotine in cigarettes to below a level where addiction occurs (which would happen under Smokefree2025 ) is bad law.
This coalition govt is going to prevent the highly addictive component (as addictive as opioids or heroin) being removed from tobacco.
Think about it, its despicable, dystopian.

Half of long term smokers die, 13 Kiwis die every day from smoking related causes, 5,000 people die every year.
Most smokers are desperate to quit.

Do the math.
In order to get $1 billion in excise tax from the sale of tobacco, this govt needs smokers to buy $1.428 billion worth of tobacco, so its going to keep the nicotine levels high, keep the population of smokers addicted.
If the nicotine is just about eliminated as under Smokefree 2025, the addiction is gone, smokers are going to quit & they won't get their $1 billion in revenue.

Luxon was in the deodorant & airline business, he's not a Public Health or Public Policy expert.
Does it matter where the 16 outlets are in Northland?
But there wouldn't be much demand for cigarettes under Smokefree 2025 anyway, without the nicotine hit, you might as well roll up a bundle of dry leaves, light them and inhale that.

[Baa_Baa]

I didn't say it have anything to do with the court of appeals. I was merely differentiating the same word. I.e appealing as in its liked
& appealing to apply to reverse.

But anyway it's semantics.
What are the new policies in the 100 day plan that people think will make a real difference to every day New Zealanders?

Crikey is it so hard to be positive about the coalition you all voted for?

I didn't say it was the 'court of appeals' either, can you not read? And it has nothing, at all, to do with your fabricated definition of 'appeal'. Why do you just dig your hole deeper and not acknowledge something simple that you used the word 'appeal', when you meant 'repeal'. So obstinate, I don't get it.

Most people who replied, starting with Fungus Pudding, called you out on the word 'appeal', but you didn't get it apparently. Then you dug your hole deeper, eventually trying to wriggle out of it by saying "anyway, it's just semantics", when it's not, you were just wrong, plain and simple.

Admit it.

[Baa_Baa]

Does it matter where the 16 outlets are in Northland?

It only matters because YOU said it does, so where's your source of that information, or did you just make it up like so much other catastrophising that you lean in to?

[jonu]

It only matters because YOU said it does, so where's your source of that information, or did you just make it up like so much other catastrophising that you lean in to?

Blue Skies also says the status quo is despicable and dystopian....which he was apparently fine with for 6 years under Labour rule. Luxon has said their aim will be to further reduce smoking. He just thinks Labour passed a bad law to achieve that. Which when you consider Labour's abysmal record on everything else they have buggered up, is likely right.

Still keen to hear where in Northland the 16 sites are going.

[Bjauck]

All Government for thes 2-3 decades have honoured the Treaty. The just kicked out useless Government changed that to "honouring the principles of the Treaty". That "principles" statement is what the debate is a bout. It is undefined and in the last few years has meant radical interpretations of what the Treaty is about. So media signed up to this without knowing what it even means and those that didn't, were cancelled. It's sad you don;t see the difference.
You may have misunderstood my post. I do agree that the previous government tried to extend the Treaty by formulating “principles” which they then used to justify a type of co-governance or co-sovereignty, which I don’t think was a condition in either version of the Treaty. That was not relevant to my post though.

No matter how a government chooses to honour the Treaty, it should not create an obligation on media, as it was the Crown and not the media that was party to the Treaty. The media are not free or independent if they agree to concentrate their journalist endeavours in areas dictated by the government.

Please don’t be sad if you think I fail to understand. However please be sad if those in government don’t understand and then misuse our resources!

[westerly]

Do we really need the snot nosed little ginger popping up every day attempting to tell Luxon what to do? The failed former PM - who didn't win an election btw, just tugged his forelock and simpered his way in when JA fled the coop - is yapping like a stray mutt with his media mates happy to give him a platform. This is the guy that the public just booted out of office; who does the cheeky jumped-up mongrel think he is?!

Gee, you are getting desperate posting rubbish like this. He is leader of the opposition and is only following on from what Luxon, Seymour and Peters were doing prior to the election.

westerly

[Logen Ninefingers]

Gee, you are getting desperate posting rubbish like this. He is leader of the opposition and is only following on from what Luxon, Seymour and Peters were doing prior to the election.

westerly

Desperate (to be relevant) Hipkins holding daily pressers haranguing Luxon on 'what he must do'. Highlighting media corruption is a good thing, not a bad thing - so the odious Hipkins needs to shut his gob. If one of Luxons ministers gets drunk, crashes his or her car, and tries to leg it away from the cops then maybe he can pipe up at that point, but not beforehand. The NZ public are sick of him, but he hasn't got the message - even after suffering an ignominious defeat at the election. The man has no shame, Tony should have a word in his ear.

[Blue Skies]

It only matters because YOU said it does, so where's your source of that information, or did you just make it up like so much other catastrophising that you lean in to?

Morena BaBa & Jonu,

My source of information - Manatū Hauora ( the Ministry of Health to you )

What I said that matters is Luxon kept repeating there would only be ONE store in Northland selling tobacco because he thinks he can get away with it with gullible voters, when he knows thats a blatant lie.
There's a big difference between 1 and 18.

I don't know why you & Jonu are obsessed about the stores are & why you don't look it up yourselves, but since you haven't and seem keen to know where they would be located, -here they are listed, all 18 locations in Northland ,Te Tai Tokerau for you.

There's also the ones throughout the rest of NZ.
You'll understand if I don't write out all the locations here, you & Jonu can click on the Manatū Hauora, Ministry of Health, link yourself.

And a diagnosis of lung cancer, or carcinoma of the tongue, a stroke or heart attack or an amputation of a foot, or emphysema is a catastrophe for most normal people.
13 people every day are dying of preventable smoking related causes.



https://www.health.govt.nz/publication/maximum-numbers-approved-smoked-tobacco-retail-premises-permitted-areas-new-zealand

[nztx]

Another day of really getting upset & ripped their way through a 6 pack in just 2 days ;)

Labour's tag alongs must be really really worried about getting booted & the new Govt to be up for
so much petty nitpicking ;)

Perhaps Ginger's clown tricks isn't delivering the entertainment they desire :)

[iceman]

Look a law is repealed in parliament, it has nothing to do with the courts or appeals. You’re talking nonsense

I think all the Te Reo is confusing him with the English language now

[Daytr]

I didn't say it was the 'court of appeals' either, can you not read? And it has nothing, at all, to do with your fabricated definition of 'appeal'. Why do you just dig your hole deeper and not acknowledge something simple that you used the word 'appeal', when you meant 'repeal'. So obstinate, I don't get it.

Most people who replied, starting with Fungus Pudding, called you out on the word 'appeal', but you didn't get it apparently. Then you dug your hole deeper, eventually trying to wriggle out of it by saying "anyway, it's just semantics", when it's not, you were just wrong, plain and simple.

Admit it.

Morena,
Suggestion. Look up the difference between appeal & repeal. Has 3 waters been repealed yet? No.

But as I said it's not really the point is it.
Not one of you except ValueNZ could come up with a new policy that is of appeal or could be constructive, instead you fixated on one word that irked you and it wasn't deliberately used to confuse by the way.

Whoops, see I used that word again, I know it's tricky for some that one word can have different meanings.

[Daytr]

I'm particularly happy about the RBNZ returning to just focusing on price stability, and no more welfare for the rich via electric car subsidies.

Kia ora,

Yes I think the RBNZ's mandate was getting a bit too complex. Do you know if house price stability has remained in their mandate?

I wasn't a fan of the ute tax either. I as tradies & farmers subsidizing are city slickers which didn't seem fair. EVs are coming down in price anyway. I

It will be interesting to see if they introduce RUC for EVs.

Hopefully Seymour can make some sensible changes to the RMA & building code that allow for things to be done more easily without compromising outcomes.

[Bjauck]

…Hopefully Seymour can make some sensible changes to the RMA & building code that allow for things to be done more easily without compromising outcomes.
It is high time that a wider minimum road width and/or laneways area stipulated in new subdivisions. In many of the new Auckland subdivisions the roads end up being one way when residents’ cars are also parked on the road, which they often are as driveways and front yards have minimal space. The rule seems currently to be to put as much building on the expensive land as possible, and as narrow a road as allowed.

[Blue Skies]

Good grief, here we now have a crusty old chain smoking man who is approaching 80, Winston, dictating sex education policy in NZ schools.
Yes another example of our world expert in mergers and acquisitions, Chris Luxon, and leading political party with 38% of the votes, surrendering to the whims of Winston & NZF who only got 6% of the votes.



https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/labour-mp-ginny-andersen-says-lgbtq-teaching-should-most-definitely-remain-in-schools.html

[Bjauck]

Good grief, here we now have a crusty old chain smoking man who is approaching 80, Winston, dictating sex education policy in NZ schools.
Yes another example of our world expert in mergers and acquisitions, Chris Luxon, and leading political party with 38% of the votes, surrendering to the whims of Winston & NZF who only got 6% of the votes.



https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/labour-mp-ginny-andersen-says-lgbtq-teaching-should-most-definitely-remain-in-schools.html

The downside of MMP is the horse trading of policies that will be implemented that occurs immediately after the election. However no Party will be able to stick to its manifesto completely when actually in power. The realities of government would temper manifesto promises anyway.

[Balance]

Good grief, here we now have a crusty old chain smoking man who is approaching 80, Winston, dictating sex education policy in NZ schools.
Yes another example of our world expert in mergers and acquisitions, Chris Luxon, and leading political party with 38% of the votes, surrendering to the whims of Winston & NZF who only got 6% of the votes.



https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/labour-mp-ginny-andersen-says-lgbtq-teaching-should-most-definitely-remain-in-schools.html

You go, Winston!

The majority of parents with children in school has had enough of the woke gender & cultural policies and educational garbage being forced on schools by the LGBT lobby in conjunction with the Ardern, Hipkins and Labour government.

Notice the number of gay politicians in Labour & The Greens?

Get back to the basics and make sure our children are properly educated first before the brain washing force feed of gender & cultural garbage to them.

Good on Winston and good on the new government for putting the emphasis back on education.

The war on woke is just beginning. Plenty more ahead.

"Ardern, Hipkins & Labour - We Educated & Bred A Generation of Academic Retards in the Name of Woke"

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1647998297258-I9VG868UPTWY8DLFO5W8/Mask.jpg?format=500w

[Bjauck]

The king of NZ and The Princess of Wales are named as the Royals who were concerned over the colour of Prince Archie. Will the new coalition seek a new Head of State for NZ or at least open a referendum debate on the appropriateness of having the head of a British aristocratic family as NZ Head of State, After all John Key spearheaded a referendum on having a British ensign as the NZ flag.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royals/royal-racism-piers-morgan-live-31561483#:~:text=The%20royals%20at%20the%20heart,M r%20Scobie%20denying%20any%20responsibility.

[nztx]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/media-insider-tvnz-shake-up-nine-top-roles-gone-newstalk-zb-stars-close-call-with-hacker-big-ad-agency-and-pr-departures/R3HGAEFZFJF5LC3SENFXYCPRWY/

Media Insider: TVNZ shake-up - nine top roles gone


Ooops - Willie's pride & joy SOE Media Empire disaster zone starts falling apart :)

Bound to be loud howling & a huge screeching Spewie coming in soon from
the huddle of failures hiding Labour's shadows :)


Time for a new Documentary on how Labour turned everything into an inflated
pink balloon of a success story and how some even got promoted for a job
well done after each disaster zone was confirmed ? ;)

[Logen Ninefingers]

Good grief, here we now have a crusty old chain smoking man who is approaching 80, Winston, dictating sex education policy in NZ schools.
Yes another example of our world expert in mergers and acquisitions, Chris Luxon, and leading political party with 38% of the votes, surrendering to the whims of Winston & NZF who only got 6% of the votes.



https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/12/labour-mp-ginny-andersen-says-lgbtq-teaching-should-most-definitely-remain-in-schools.html

Good grief, Cindy didn't have any problems with cutting deals with Winnie to get her hands on power.

[Balance]

Good grief, Cindy didn't have any problems with cutting deals with Winnie to get her hands on power.

In fact, she sold her grandmother to hop into bed with Winston. :t_up:

And once he was not in the coalition, she went mad, self imploded and then, quit in 2023. How she must miss being in bed with him.:eek2:

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/94bf46935a50c8779e7269d09308dfed

[Balance]

And for the Blue Skies, dobby41 of the Clueless Cindy world of delusion, here's a reminder via cartoons of the Ardern & Winston 'partnership' :

https://thumbnailer.digitalnz.org/?resize=664%3E&src=https%3A%2F%2Fndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz%2FNLN ZStreamGate%2Fget%3Fdps_pid%3DIE53476884

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/XDOzMASKW7OPm7bVicn2dUGOKuw=/arc-anglerfish-syd-prod-nzme/public/X2L6O45SCUGGLGEDDMZO2YJALU.jpg

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/W6tg98HQQfrBgyXcYgDquvas7pk=/1440x810/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/EIM6ONEVSLHQF4ZRUBFI7DMKVU.jpg

https://cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/TV7HEK2J56K4G2DTMVS3MMZWCM.jpg

[777]

The king of NZ and The Princess of Wales are named as the Royals who were concerned over the colour of Prince Archie. Will the new coalition seek a new Head of State for NZ or at least open a referendum debate on the appropriateness of having the head of a British aristocratic family as NZ Head of State, After all John Key spearheaded a referendum on having a British ensign as the NZ flag.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royals/royal-racism-piers-morgan-live-31561483#:~:text=The%20royals%20at%20the%20heart,M r%20Scobie%20denying%20any%20responsibility.

So they were interested in the likely skin colour, how can that be racist?

[Logen Ninefingers]

The king of NZ and The Princess of Wales are named as the Royals who were concerned over the colour of Prince Archie. Will the new coalition seek a new Head of State for NZ or at least open a referendum debate on the appropriateness of having the head of a British aristocratic family as NZ Head of State, After all John Key spearheaded a referendum on having a British ensign as the NZ flag.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/royals/royal-racism-piers-morgan-live-31561483#:~:text=The%20royals%20at%20the%20heart,M r%20Scobie%20denying%20any%20responsibility.

Firstly, if we get rid of the British Crown - who signed a treaty with some Maori chiefs (they became the British subjects of their new sovereign Queen Victoria in exchange for Her Majesty's laws & protection) - then what does that do to the already tenuous ‘obligations’ we are supposedly under because of said Treaty?

Secondly, just because Me-gain & Obie Scobie say something is true then why should we take their word as the gospel truth? Were such things ever said, and if they were - what was the context? If it was said “geez, I hope like mad he’s not a little darkie” then there’s an issue, if it was said “I wonder what his complexion will be and will he have Harry’s red hair” then there is no issue. You weren’t there, but seem eager to believe the worst.

[Bjauck]

So they were interested in the likely skin colour, how can that be racist? Sure skin tone shouldn’t be an issue.

[Bjauck]

Firstly, if we get rid of the British Crown - who signed a treaty with some Maori chiefs (they became the British subjects of their new sovereign Queen Victoria in exchange for Her Majesty's laws & protection) - then what does that do to the already tenuous ‘obligations’ we are supposedly under because of said Treaty?

Secondly, just because Me-gain & Obie Scobie say something is true then why should we take their word as the gospel truth? Were such things ever said, and if they were - what was the context? If it was said “geez, I hope like mad he’s not a little darkie” then there’s an issue, if it was said “I wonder what his complexion will be and will he have Harry’s red hair” then there is no issue. You weren’t there, but seem eager to believe the worst. Primarily whether a British aristocrat is racist or not shouldn’t be an issue that the Head of State of NZ faces. That a British aristocrat has prejudices would hardly be surprising anyway.

Heirs and successors to Victoria are bound. Many pieces of NZ legislation refer to the Treaty, and are legally enforceable.

The King should be scrutinised more rigorously than a politician because he never faces an election.

[jonu]

No mention in the linked article that the UK and many Euro nations have raised concerns about the WHO's revised treaty. The article also says it is legally binding and then that it isn't in the next sentence. Which is it? Maybe our new government doesn't do virtue signaling bs like its predecessor. The WHO toadies quoted in the article (Clark, Baker, Verral et al) expose themselves for what they are, as do the ignorant and biased MSM.

The coalition's reservation is the wise thing to do before committing to anything. As Luxon has said, and not for the first time, he's not taking any lectures from Labour. If Labour had any brains they would at least give Luxon time to hang himself (or have Winston do it), but no, they are firing all their bullets from a position of zero credibility. Zilch.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/health/other/govt-s-who-health-policy-has-nothing-to-do-with-online-conspiracies-pm-luxon/ar-AA1kOzyY?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7ac3d68047c74fc9812580f15e45b7d0&ei=11

[LEMON]

Sure skin tone should ’t be an issue.

Unless you're Balance, he's just too weak to say the quiet part out loud, so I'm happy to say it for him.
We all know anyway, even if he denies it, he can cry woke and blame Cindy or Te Reo all he wants, he's scared of a little pigmentation, pathetic armchair bandit

I ain't "woke", I don't like Cindy, and I disagree with a lot of Maori policy from Labour, yet anyone who calls someone primitive or accuses a race of being uneducated is lost in his self-importance and can't see beyond his snobbery

[iceman]

No mention in the linked article that the UK and many Euro nations have raised concerns about the WHO's revised treaty. The article also says it is legally binding and then that it isn't in the next sentence. Which is it? Maybe our new government doesn't do virtue signaling bs like its predecessor. The WHO toadies quoted in the article (Clark, Baker, Verral et al) expose themselves for what they are, as do the ignorant and biased MSM.

The coalition's reservation is the wise thing to do before committing to anything. As Luxon has said, and not for the first time, he's not taking any lectures from Labour. If Labour had any brains they would at least give Luxon time to hang himself (or have Winston do it), but no, they are firing all their bullets from a position of zero credibility. Zilch.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/health/other/govt-s-who-health-policy-has-nothing-to-do-with-online-conspiracies-pm-luxon/ar-AA1kOzyY?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=7ac3d68047c74fc9812580f15e45b7d0&ei=11
The article you linked and quotes attributed to Hipkins & Verral show how out of touch and dangerous they are. They don’t seem to even know any detail about the WHO’s proposals.
Luckily we got a new Government just in time to formally put any NZ adoption of this madness on hold

[blackcap]

Unless you're Balance, he's just too weak to say the quiet part out loud, so I'm happy to say it for him.
We all know anyway, even if he denies it, he can cry woke and blame Cindy or Te Reo all he wants, he's scared of a little pigmentation, pathetic armchair bandit

I ain't "woke", I don't like Cindy, and I disagree with a lot of Maori policy from Labour, yet anyone who calls someone primitive or accuses a race of being uneducated is lost in his self-importance and can't see beyond his snobbery

You know what. I have a cousin who is married to a black lady from Africa. When they have babies, we are naturally curious as to how dark or light the skin colour will be. Nothing racist about that. Just natural curiousness as there is a sliding scale of possibilities. Not like we are rooting for the whitest possible outcome, or any other variable. Just curious and interested.

[Bjauck]

You know what. I have a cousin who is married to a black lady from Africa. When they have babies, we are naturally curious as to how dark or light the skin colour will be. Nothing racist about that. Just natural curiousness as there is a sliding scale of possibilities. Not like we are rooting for the whitest possible outcome, or any other variable. Just curious and interested.
Do you discuss it with your cousin’s wife?

[777]

Do you discuss it with your cousin’s wife?

What has that got to do with it?

You appear to have some agenda here.

[Getty]

Sure skin tone shouldn’t be an issue.

Perhaps Meghan had met a Cavalry Officer while in royal company, a dark one...

[Getty]

Perhaps Meghan had met a Cavalry Officer while in royal company, a dark one...

He may have been a dark horse, but he knew how to get in the saddle!

[Bjauck]

What has that got to do with it?

You appear to have some agenda here. I am not sure what you are getting at. The large relevant part of the issue is that Meghan was approached by Members of her husband’s family who raised the question as to how dark her baby would be. So that is why I asked Blackcap if they had done the same with their cousin’s wife.

Maybe Meghan misremembered though. Maybe her husband’s family asked how white the baby may be ;)

[LEMON]

You know what. I have a cousin who is married to a black lady from Africa. When they have babies, we are naturally curious as to how dark or light the skin colour will be. Nothing racist about that. Just natural curiousness as there is a sliding scale of possibilities. Not like we are rooting for the whitest possible outcome, or any other variable. Just curious.

Will you call the baby primitive, tell it its not to learn its mother's language if it's not that of Western culture? Tell the child it's better to follow Papa because his culture is superior? Don't allow the child to dance at the family gathering, in case it upsets the guests, maybe it will be seen as a war dance or not culturally appropriate for New Zealand as owe are not an African country.

That's all of the Balance points, convince me otherwise

Pathetic spineless defense, what a ridiculous justification for using an unborn child to defend a blatant coward

[LEMON]

Just say it lads, you are scared of pigmentation, it's beyond obvious. Grow a set and own up to it, you're scared of anything that's not what represents you

[Logen Ninefingers]

Primarily whether a British aristocrat is racist or not shouldn’t be an issue that the Head of State of NZ faces. That a British aristocrat has prejudices would hardly be surprising anyway.

Heirs and successors to Victoria are bound. Many pieces of NZ legislation refer to the Treaty, and are legally enforceable.

The King should be scrutinised more rigorously than a politician because he never faces an election.

Heirs and successors are bound to something? Probably. The British Crown & the Maori tribes who subjugated themselves to Queen Victoria should work it out between themselves. As to why a democratic country called New Zealand that gained independence from Britain should find itself bound to an archaic British treaty, good reasons are usually never presented. And because some extrapolated ‘principles of the treaty’ were invented in the 1970’s, we are all supposed to bow down before them as well. But laws can be changed, legislation can be undone. Just because Leftists, activists, and the Maori elite tell us otherwise is no cause for us to all behave as if legislation is ‘set in stone’. Sure they will kick, scream, and howl - and if Willie Jackson and Tuku ‘Underpants’ Morgan are to be believed - will unleash violence. The majority & our lawmakers should not he cowed by these vested interests and their allies.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Just say it lads, you are scared of pigmentation, it's beyond obvious. Grow a set and own up to it, you're scared of anything that's not what represents you

Why would anyone be ‘scared of pigmentation’? Me-gain and ‘the spare’ continue their drip, drip, drip of hateful attacks & those that wish to divide us are happy to promote fanciful that suit their agenda.

[Blue Skies]

I am not sure what you are getting at. The large relevant part of the issue is that Meghan was approached by Members of her husbandÂ’s family who raised the question as to how dark her baby would be. So that is why I asked if you had done the same with your cousinÂ’s wife.


That's a very loaded way of framing what was almost certainly a very innocent exchange.

Harry & Megan might just as well have been standing around having a cup of tea with other Royals, sharing the news of Megan's pregnancy when amongst all the excited family chatter about the pregnancy, someone mentioned they wonder if the baby will have lovely olive skin instead of Harry's pale freckly English skin, or what skin tone the baby will have.
I think by now we all know enough about the role of genetics to understand that would be an entirely normal and innocent thing to say & the sort of thing which is said by most normal people.


How very different that sounds to, - members of the Royal family approached Megan & questioning her as to how dark her baby would be !

[LEMON]

Why would anyone be ‘scared of pigmentation’? Me-gain and ‘the spare’ continue their drip, drip, drip of hateful attacks & those that wish to divide us are happy to promote fanciful that suit their agenda.

What dribble, the sheep gathers around his master BAA-lance. The most hateful thing I have seen is the likes of you and your mates calling anything non white New Zealand, primitive and not having a place in NZ

Then you come back with your sympathy votes about being anyone who rejects your claims as being woke, or how Cindy somehow has to do with it, and then if all else fails you talk about divide and hate? If you didn't say anything ridiculous we wouldn't be here, spineless cowards

[LEMON]

You hide behind your pseudonym, typing away with your cowardly remarks about Maori, yet none of you would say these things to their face, you'll claim to your tired weary wife you can't now because it's not accepted today, or talk about the woke narrative, giggle with your dumb mate about your brown joke, or better yet claim people just don't know how to have a laugh

Yet it's you cowards who sit at home in your old rocking chair, yelling at the TV for saying Kia Ora, whilst the world moves on and forgets you.

Cowards

Do something useful

[jonu]

That's a very loaded way of framing what was almost certainly a very innocent exchange.

Harry & Megan might just as well have been standing around having a cup of tea with other Royals, sharing the news of Megan's pregnancy when amongst all the excited family chatter about the pregnancy, someone mentioned they wonder if the baby will have lovely olive skin instead of Harry's pale freckly English skin, or what skin tone the baby will have.
I think by now we all know enough about the role of genetics to understand that would be an entirely normal and innocent thing to say & the sort of thing which is said by most normal people.


How very different that sounds to, - members of the Royal family approached Megan & questioning her as to how dark her baby would be !

We are in agreement Blue Skies!

I had a teacher at high school who was a dark skinned Maori with a Dutch Dad. He married a very blond Scandinavian looking woman. She gave birth to twins; one as white as the Mum, the other as brown as the Dad. It was quite the curiosity in the district, but none of it malicious.

[Bjauck]

That's a very loaded way of framing what was almost certainly a very innocent exchange.

Harry & Megan might just as well have been standing around having a cup of tea with other Royals, sharing the news of Megan's pregnancy when amongst all the excited family chatter about the pregnancy, someone mentioned they wonder if the baby will have lovely olive skin instead of Harry's pale freckly English skin, or what skin tone the baby will have.
I think by now we all know enough about the role of genetics to understand that would be an entirely normal and innocent thing to say & the sort of thing which is said by most normal people.


How very different that sounds to, - members of the Royal family approached Megan & questioning her as to how dark her baby would be ! Almost certainly an innocent exchange? Maybe your recall is better than Meghan’s…

Sure they all got on famously and may just have had an innocent exchange over the teacups and out of earshot of les domestiques. You would certainly need a reasonably good relationship to raise in a neutral manner what can be a sensitive topic face-to-face. Perhaps that is what the King now recalls. It does not sound like such an idyllic exchange from the recall of his daughter-in-law.

[Logen Ninefingers]

What dribble, the sheep gathers around his master BAA-lance. The most hateful thing I have seen is the likes of you and your mates calling anything non white New Zealand, primitive and not having a place in NZ

Then you come back with your sympathy votes about being anyone who rejects your claims as being woke, or how Cindy somehow has to do with it, and then if all else fails you talk about divide and hate? If you didn't say anything ridiculous we wouldn't be here, spineless cowards

The dribble is coming from you pal.

[LEMON]

The dribble is coming from you pal.

Pathetic
Can't even stand on your own 2

[Daytr]

Will you call the baby primitive, tell it its not to learn its mother's language if it's not that of Western culture? Tell the child it's better to follow Papa because his culture is superior? Don't allow the child to dance at the family gathering, in case it upsets the guests, maybe it will be seen as a war dance or not culturally appropriate for New Zealand as owe are not an African country.

That's all of the Balance points, convince me otherwise

Pathetic spineless defense, what a ridiculous justification for using an unborn child to defend a blatant coward


Just say it lads, you are scared of pigmentation, it's beyond obvious. Grow a set and own up to it, you're scared of anything that's not what represents you

Morena Lemon, well said.
Some of the posts on here are absolutely disgusting & racist.

[Daytr]

Heirs and successors are bound to something? Probably. The British Crown & the Maori tribes who subjugated themselves to Queen Victoria should work it out between themselves. As to why a democratic country called New Zealand that gained independence from Britain should find itself bound to an archaic British treaty, good reasons are usually never presented. And because some extrapolated ‘principles of the treaty’ were invented in the 1970’s, we are all supposed to bow down before them as well. But laws can be changed, legislation can be undone. Just because Leftists, activists, and the Maori elite tell us otherwise is no cause for us to all behave as if legislation is ‘set in stone’. Sure they will kick, scream, and howl - and if Willie Jackson and Tuku ‘Underpants’ Morgan are to be believed - will unleash violence. The majority & our lawmakers should not he cowed by these vested interests and their allies.

Kia ora Logen Ninefingers, Can you please provide a quote from Willie Jackson as well as Tuku Morgan where they said 'it will unleash violence ' ?

[Logen Ninefingers]

Daytr spends his days trolling others & crying ‘racist’ at anyone who doesn’t agree with the Lefts interpretation of ‘Te Tiriti’.
Despite the ongoing pathetic hoots of ‘racist’, you will not find any genuine racist comments in this forum. No-one is saying ‘Maori’ people are racially inferior to others, no-one is saying that the Maori language should not exist and must be extinguished. The Left cry “racist!” the way religious hysterics cried “witch!” in times past.

As to what the likes of Willie Jackson and Tuku Morgan have been saying, the facts are out there -

https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/05/willie-jackson-treaty-referendum-risks-springbok-tour-protest-repeat/

‘If ACT's proposed Treaty referendum went ahead, New Zealand would see civil unrest "five times worse" than the 1981 Springbok tour protest, according to Labour MP Willie Jackson.’

[Bjauck]

Heirs and successors are bound to something? Probably. The British Crown & the Maori tribes who subjugated themselves to Queen Victoria should work it out between themselves. As to why a democratic country called New Zealand that gained independence from Britain should find itself bound to an archaic British treaty, good reasons are usually never presented. And because some extrapolated ‘principles of the treaty’ were invented in the 1970’s, we are all supposed to bow down before them as well. But laws can be changed, legislation can be undone. Just because Leftists, activists, and the Maori elite tell us otherwise is no cause for us to all behave as if legislation is ‘set in stone’. Sure they will kick, scream, and howl - and if Willie Jackson and Tuku ‘Underpants’ Morgan are to be believed - will unleash violence. The majority & our lawmakers should not he cowed by these vested interests and their allies. Sifting through your response to find bits I can reply to….

It was not until 1947 with the adoption of the Statute of Westminster that NZ got almost total independence and the NZ Government succeeded to all the UK government’s commitments in right of NZ. NZ’s independence was a constitutional evolution and not the result of a revolutionary break.

Statutes can be amended. Treaties can be renegotiated. However laws may indeed be ignored and Treaties broken with all the consequences that may follow.

[Daytr]

Daytr spends his days trolling others & crying ‘racist’ at anyone who doesn’t agree with the Lefts interpretation of ‘Te Tiriti’.
Despite the ongoing pathetic hoots of ‘racist’, you will not find any genuine racist comments in this forum. No-one is saying ‘Maori’ people are racially inferior to others, no-one is saying that the Maori language should not exist and must be extinguished. The Left cry “racist!” the way religious hysterics cried “witch!” in times past.

As to what the likes of Willie Jackson and Tuku Morgan have been saying, the facts are out there -

https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/05/willie-jackson-treaty-referendum-risks-springbok-tour-protest-repeat/

‘If ACT's proposed Treaty referendum went ahead, New Zealand would see civil unrest "five times worse" than the 1981 Springbok tour protest, according to Labour MP Willie Jackson.’

Really. No racist comments on this forum?
Do you want me to pull them out?
I can hear the clatter of keyboards now as the serial offenders look to troll back through their comments to make edits.

Hopefully Bjauk can find what he is looking for but the comment I made wasn't necessarily directed at you but you have displayed characteristics especially in your comments regarding the use of te reo that triggers you so much.

The problem is with most racists is, they don't usually see themselves as racist.

Thanks for the Willie quote, anything from Tuku Morgan?
I do agree with Willie though, any such referendum as Seymour was touting could cause division & riots like we saw in 1981.
Such a stupid thing to propose & those supporting such a move should be ashamed.

There are plenty of less divisive ways of changing the way the Treaty has been implemented throughout Government in recent years & I would be supportive of some of those changes.
All the naming issues is such a shame, as if there hadn't been over reach by Labour it may not have been a major issue.

I.e NZTA could have stayed the same with Waka Kotahi as the translation underneath etc.

Interestingly Shane Jones was at a public meeting recently where he was using te reo, as he often does & someone shouted out from the crowd 'speak English'. 🙄

When you play in the gutter, the stench will follow you.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Really. No racist comments on this forum?
Do you want me to pull them out?
I can hear the clatter of keyboards now as the serial offenders look to troll back through their comments to make edits.

Hopefully Bjauk can find what he is looking for but the comment I made wasn't necessarily directed at you but you have displayed characteristics especially in your comments regarding the use of te reo that triggers you so much.

The problem is with most racists is, they don't usually see themselves as racist.

Thanks for the Willie quote, anything from Tuku Morgan?
I do agree with Willie though, any such referendum as Seymour was touting could cause division & riots like we saw in 1981.
Such a stupid thing to propose & those supporting such a move should be ashamed.

There are plenty of less divisive ways of changing the way the Treaty has been implemented throughout Government in recent years & I would be supportive of some of those changes.
All the naming issues is such a shame, as if there hadn't been over reach by Labour it may not have been a major issue.

I.e NZTA could have stayed the same with Waka Kotahi as the translation underneath etc.

Interestingly Shane Jones was at a public meeting recently where he was using te reo, as he often does & someone shouted out from the crowd 'speak English'. 🙄

When you play in the gutter, the stench will follow you.

‘Racists don’t see themselves as racists’. Probably because they are not. Leaving it to daytr and other leftists to play judge, jury, and executioner as to what constitutes a racist.

[blackcap]

‘Racists don’t see themselves as racists’. Probably because they are not. Leaving it to daytr and other leftists to play judge, jury, and executioner as to what constitutes a racist.

Totally. If being curious as to the skin colour of a child of "mixed" pigmentation parents is now deemed racist, well I am a proud racist. Cheers.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Sifting through your response to find bits I can reply to….

It was not until 1947 with the adoption of the Statute of Westminster that NZ got almost total independence and the NZ Government succeeded to all the UK government’s commitments in right of NZ. NZ’s independence was a constitutional evolution and not the result of a revolutionary break.

Statutes can be amended. Treaties can be renegotiated. However laws may indeed be ignored and Treaties broken with all the consequences that may follow.

Laws can - and are - changed routinely by Parliament. There is nothing sinister or shocking about this. Muttering darkly about ‘consequences that may follow’ should not cow either the government or the citizenry.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Was Sir Apirana Ngata a ‘racist’? He held the same views and interpretation of the Treaty in 1922 that many are being excoriated for holding today. Then again, he was writing in time much closer to event that todays activists and elites, and he didn’t have the revisionist ‘principles of the treaty’ of the 1970’s to consult.

https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-NgaTrea-t1-g1-t1.html

[Logen Ninefingers]

The plain and unambiguous words of Sir Apirana Ngata -

Article the First
‘These are the words of the first article of the Treaty of Waitangi. The First Article’:

"The Chiefs assembled including Chiefs not present at the assembly hereby cede absolutely to the Queen of England for ever the Government of all of their lands"

‘These are but a few words but they indicate a complete cession. This was the transfer by the Maori Chiefs to the Queen of England for ever of the Government of all their lands. What was the thing they transferred? What was the thing which they gave away so freely for ever? It was the Government of their lands.’

[Logen Ninefingers]

The plain and unambiguous words of Sir Apirana Ngata -

Article the Second
‘This is the second article of the Treaty of Waitangi. The Second:

"The Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the Chiefs and Tribes and to all the people of New Zealand the full possession of their lands, their homes and all their possessions, but the chiefs assembled and all other chiefs yield to the Queen the right to alienate such lands which the owners desire to dispose of at a price agreed upon between the owners and person or persons appointed by the Queen to purchase on her behalf".

I said at the beginning of my explanations that the Maori version was not a good translation of the English terms in the Treaty. There were small parts left out. Young students from among you can see for yourselves the English version of the second article of the Treaty as follows:

"ARTICLE THE SECOND"
"Her Majesty the Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the Chiefs and Tribes of New Zealand, and to the respective families and individuals thereof, the full, exclusive, and undisturbed possession of their Lands and Estates, Forests, Fisheries, and other properties which they may collectively or individually possess, so long as it is their wish and desire to retain the same in their possession; but the Chiefs of the United Tribes and the Individual Chiefs yield to Her Majesty the exclusive right of Pre-emption over such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to alienate, at such prices as may be agreed upon between the respective Proprietors and persons appointed by Her Majesty to treat with them in that behalf".

Now it will be seen there are several words in the English version which were not adequately rendered into the Maori language. This is my translation:

"Ko te Kuini o Ingarangi ka whakapumau, ka whakaoati kia whaka-tuturutia ki nga Rangatira, ki nga Hapu o Niu Tireni, a ki ia whanau, ki ia tangata ranei o ratou, te mana te rangatiratanga o o ratou whenua, o o ratou ngahere, o o ratou taunga-ika, o era atu taonga ranei a ratou, a ia tangata ranei o ratou mo te wa e hiahia ai ratou ki te pupuri i aua mea; Oti ia e whakaae ana nga Rangatira o te Whakaminenga, me era atu rangatira katoa ki te tuku atu ki te Kuini i te mana motuhake ki te hoko i nga warhi whenua e hiahiatia ana e nga tangata no ratou aua whenua kia hokona, mo nga utu e whakaritea i waenganui i nga tangata no ratou aua whenua me nga tangata e whakaritea e te Kuini hei kai hoko mana".

This is the article from which stems the matters which are discussed throughout the maraes in regard to the Treaty of Waitangi. When a bad law is made it is said to contravene the Treaty of Waitangi. The Government confiscates the land, it is said this is wrong, because it contravenes the guarantee of the Queen under this article of the Treaty. This has given rise to wishful thinking on the part of many Maori groups, for the formation of Absolute Maori Authorities, variously called Kotahitanga (United Group) Kauhanganui (Open Forum) Maori Parliament or other designations. All this wishful thinking goes back to this article in the Treaty. Indeed these ideas were due to confusion as the authority of the Maori was set aside for ever by the first article of the Treaty.

What is this authority, this sovreignty that is referred to in the second article? It is quite clear, the right of a Maori to his land, to his property, to his individual right to such possessions whereby he could declare, "This is my land, there are the boundaries, descended from my ancestor so and so, or conquered by him, or as the first occupier, or so and so gave it to him, or it had been occupied by his descendants down to me. These properties are mine, this canoe, that taiaha (combination spear and club), that greenstone patu (club), that kumara (sweet potato) pit, that cultivation. These things are mine and do not belong to anyone else".

At the time of the Treaty both islands were widely inhabited by Maori tribes. They had partitioned all the lands and had named all the various parts. At the time of the Treaty the chiefs and tribes were disputing among themselves the titles and the boundaries between their lands. They fought with guns, with patu (clubs), to take by conquest the lands of the others, or to bar the way of others intent on conquest.

The Queen did not do anything, to take away the rights of the Maori over his lands, instead she made the ownership permanent and truly established.’

[Logen Ninefingers]

The plain and unambiguous words of Sir Apirana Ngata -

Article the Third
‘This is the third article of the Treaty:

"ARTICLE THE THIRD"
"In consideration thereof, Her Majesty the Queen of England extends to the Natives of New Zealand Her Royal Protection, and imparts to them all the rights and privileges of British subjects".

This article explains what Her Majesty the Queen gives in return for what the Maori Chiefs have ceded to Her Majesty's Government. Here is the explanation.

(1) The Queen of England extends to the Maori people of New Zealand Her Royal protection.
(2) She imparts to them all the rights and privileges of British subjects.

These are very important and formidable words. The first part is that all the Maori people would receive protection. Looking beyond the shores of New Zealand we find that it was through the Queen and her descendants, through their prestige and might that we have been protected against invasion by foreign powers, namely the French in its time when it attempted to take the South Island and had actually settled at Akaroa; and after that came the Russians and its attempts to conquer us were staved off; and only yesterday we faced up to the Germans and only after a bitter struggle were they defeated; who knows we may have to face up to the Japanese. The might of England has protected us, the King has given us his protection.’

[Getty]

Thanks for the Willie quote, anything from Tuku Morgan?
I do agree with Willie though, any such referendum as Seymour was touting could cause division & riots like we saw in 1981.
Such a stupid thing to propose & those supporting such a move should be ashamed.
.

Tuk Morgan, TV1 interview earlier this week Either 6pm news, or the program that follows it. Someone else may be able to be more specific with time.

[Logen Ninefingers]

The plain and unambiguous words of Sir Apirana Ngata -

CONFISCATED LANDS
‘In conclusion I would just like to say a word about the lands that were confiscated by past Governments. Some have said that these confiscations were wrong and that they contravened the articles of the Treaty of Waitangi.

The Government placed in the hands of the Queen of England, the sovereignty and the authority to make laws. Some sections of the Maori people violated that authority. War arose from this and blood was spilled. The law came into operation and land was taken in payment. This itself is a Maori custom—revenge, plunder to avenge a wrong. It was their own chiefs who ceded that right to the Queen. The confiscations cannot therefore be objected to in the light of the Treaty.’

[Logen Ninefingers]

Tuk Morgan, TV1 interview earlier this week Either 6pm news, or the program that follows it. Someone else may be able to be more specific with time.

He said Maori would ‘fight in the streets’.

[Daytr]

Laws can - and are - changed routinely by Parliament. There is nothing sinister or shocking about this. Muttering darkly about ‘consequences that may follow’ should not cow either the government or the citizenry.

Agree but interpretations don't often need law changes. It's just the implementation.

What law changes are you proposing?
I'm not a fan of Willie Jackson by the way.
He gets far too emotional & blinkered to be a politician.

What I referred to was how divisive a referendum would be & I think this is one area Willie Jackson is right on.

[Logen Ninefingers]

You can imagine Judge daytr during the Salem witch trials.

“Sir, I beseech thee, I am a good and pious Christian woman, I am not in league with Satan.”

“Madam, your refusal to confess to the sin of witchcraft is proof of your commitment to the service of Beezlebub. I therefore sentence you to be burned at the stake tomorrow at the stroke of midday”.

“Please Sir, I am telling the truth!”

“Silence, I decide what is truth!”

[Bjauck]

…
Hopefully Bjauk can find what he is looking for but the comment I made wasn't necessarily directed at you but you have displayed characteristics especially in your comments regarding the use of te reo that triggers you so
…. Without any references from you I don’t know what you are going on about.

My guess though is that I found it confusing when Te Reo and English were used in the same article without any differentiation in the font between the two languages. Also as my knowledge of Te Reo is not great, I need the Māori part of the text to be translated into English, so that I do not miss out on any of the information. I prefer it when there is both a Māori version and an English version of the same publication, then I have no issue with that. However your disparagement of my comments was unspecified.



The problem is with most racists is, they don't usually see themselves as racist.
….
Right back at you.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Agree but interpretations don't often need law changes. It's just the implementation.

What law changes are you proposing?
I'm not a fan of Willie Jackson by the way.
He gets far too emotional & blinkered to be a politician.

What I referred to was how divisive a referendum would be & I think this is one area Willie Jackson is right on.

I think a referendum is for more democratic and logical than a cabal of politicians, judges, and activists deciding on some arbitrary modern day ‘principles of the Treaty’.

‘The three Treaty of Waitangi principles – partnership, protection, and participation.’

Right out of the blocks, ceding sovereignty - as acknowledged by Sir Apirana Ngata - is no way indicative of a ‘partnership’. There is no way that Queen Victoria would have entered into an equal partnership with a group of people who were becoming her subjects. We have entered the turbulent waters where the activists wish to give authority to an historical document, but also twist its meaning within their preferred contemporary context. They want to have their cake & eat it too. So we now have the Maori elite saying “we never ceded sovereignty to you, we are in an equal partnership with you & will govern the country jointly; say otherwise and there will be fighting in the streets.” This is the mess we are in. Attempts to restore the paramount authority of the government are being labelled as ‘divisive’, which is deeply unfortunate and wrong.

[Daytr]

I think a referendum is for more democratic and logical than a cabal of politicians, judges, and activists deciding on some arbitrary modern day ‘principles of the Treaty’.

‘The three Treaty of Waitangi principles – partnership, protection, and participation.’

Right out of the blocks, ceding sovereignty - as acknowledged by Sir Apirana Ngata - is no way indicative of a ‘partnership’. There is no way that Queen Victoria would have entered into an equal partnership with a group of people who were becoming her subjects. We have entered the turbulent waters where the activists wish to give authority to an historical document, but also twist its meaning within their preferred contemporary context. They want to have their cake & eat it too. So we now have the Maori elite saying “we never ceded sovereignty to you, we are in an equal partnership with you & will govern the country jointly; say otherwise and there will be fighting in the streets.” This is the mess we are in. Attempts to restore the paramount authority of the government are being labelled as ‘divisive’, which is deeply unfortunate and wrong.

80% non Maori make up the population.
That is reason enough not to have a referendum on something that would impact Maori significantly.

Seymour would be a fool to follow through on this as there would be protests throughout the country. It would split the country in two.

They don't need a referendum to reverse where the Labour Maori caucus led us they also don't even need law changes I suspect. Most if it would be covered under Government policy.

[Getty]

Daytr, now that you have reference to the comments that you sought to deny, how do you, as the non racist judge you purport to be, find the comments from Willie and Tuk?

Helpful?

Inflammatory?

Divisive?

Racist?

Disgraceful?

Bearing in mind both gents have MP experience, and one is a leader of a large tribal group.

Would they need to reference violence and civil disobedience if their causes were just?

[Logen Ninefingers]

80% non Maori make up the population.
That is reason enough not to have a referendum on something that would impact Maori significantly.

Seymour would be a fool to follow through on this as there would be protests throughout the country. It would split the country in two.

They don't need a referendum to reverse where the Labour Maori caucus led us they also don't even need law changes I suspect. Most if it would be covered under Government policy.

I note you are steering away from any historical facts - as they don’t fit the activists interpretation - and have pivoted to parroting Waititi’s talking points about a ‘tyranny of the majority’. Zero comment on the clear and unambiguous point of view of that titan of the Maori world, Sir Apirana Ngata.
I’ll support any methodology that gets us back to the cohesive & coherent point where we were prior to relatively recent times: it was acknowledged that in the first article of the Treaty the Maori chiefs ceded sovereignty to the British Crown. It is the new insistence on “we never ceded sovereignty, we are in partnership with you & we will govern the country together” that is causing unprecedented turmoil and division. If you look at the language of latent violence, it is certainly coming from your side of the argument. You are saying ‘submit, let it happen, don’t fight it…because Maori will kick off big time if you do’.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Daytr, now that you have reference to the comments that you sought to deny, how do you, as the non racist judge you purport to be, find the comments from Willie and Tuk?

Helpful?

Inflammatory?

Divisive?

Racist?

Disgraceful?

Bearing in mind both gents have MP experience, and one is a leader of a large tribal group.

Would they need to reference violence and civil disobedience if their causes were just?

You can present the bloke with clear & unambiguous facts that are indisputable, and then I guess at that point cognitive dissonance takes over & he has no recourse left but to yell “racist” or “divider”. It is just sad. Above all we apparently cannot stand up to the increasingly aggressive revisionist interpretations of the Treaty because then ‘the country will be torn apart’ apparently, and ‘bad things’ will happen. So we ‘must’ just meekly submit to a power grab by Maori elites. It’s all just gaslighting on a grand scale.

[Daytr]

I note you are steering away from any historical facts - as they don’t fit the activists interpretation - and have pivoted to parroting Waititi’s talking points about a ‘tyranny of the majority’. Zero comment on the clear and unambiguous point of view of that titan of the Maori world, Sir Apirana Ngata
I’ll support any methodology that gets us back to the cohesive & coherent point where we were prior to relatively recent times: it was acknowledged that in the first article of the Treaty the Maori chiefs ceded sovereignty to the British Crown. It is the new insistence on “we never ceded sovereignty, we are in partnership with you & we will govern the country together” that is causing unprecedented turmoil and division. If you look at the language of latent violence, it is certainly coming from your side of the argument. You are saying ‘submit, let it happen, don’t fight it…because Maori will kick off big time if you do’.

I'm not steering away from it at all, as I actually agree with most of the historic interpretation, I.e Maori ceded sovereignty in return for protections, rights & certain privileges. The problem with any one interpretation though is that there was more than one Treaty document and an English & Maori versions. How many Maori could actually read Maori at the time I don't know as it was the Europeans who created the written language and made many mistakes along the way doing so.

Hey but I'm a Labourite Lefty so how can that be....

Either way it's not Maori who didn't honour the Treaty. Those protections, rights & privileges were completely reneged on by the Crown for over 100 years. And now it's the Crown who wants a referendum on its legitimacy?
Yes if I was Maori I would be angry to.

I think you will find many Maori, not all of course, also didn't agree with Labour's over reach either and just want everyone to get along & for Maori to be able to improve their own lot without encumbrance and to be able to continue to embrace & grow their culture & language.

No referendum required.

[Daytr]

Daytr, now that you have reference to the comments that you sought to deny, how do you, as the non racist judge you purport to be, find the comments from Willie and Tuk?

Helpful?

Inflammatory?

Divisive?

Racist?

Disgraceful?

Bearing in mind both gents have MP experience, and one is a leader of a large tribal group.

Would they need to reference violence and civil disobedience if their causes were just?

One word.
Honest.

[Getty]

One word.
Honest.

As dismissive as it as, a sidestep like that would earn you a place in the Maori All Black backline!

Any way, we both agree a referendum on the Treaty is not the most constructive point in NZ at the moment.

But I invite people to consider what the outcry would be if Act had said "we need this referendum, or we and our supporters will get out and fight those who have another opinion in the streets!

[Logen Ninefingers]

I'm not steering away from it at all, as I actually agree with most of the historic interpretation, I.e Maori ceded sovereignty in return for protections, rights & certain privileges. The problem with any one interpretation though is that there was more than one Treaty document and an English & Maori versions. How many Maori could actually read Maori at the time I don't know as it was the Europeans who created the written language and made many mistakes along the way doing so.

Either way it's not Maori who didn't honour the Treaty. Those protections, rights & privileges were completely reneged on by the Crown for over 100 years. And now it's the Crown who wants a referendum on its legitimacy?
Yes if I was Maori I would be angry to.

I think you will find many Maori, not all of course, also didn't agree with Labour's over reach either and just want everyone to get along & for Maori to be able to improve their own lot without encumbrance and to be able to continue to embrace & grow their culture & language.

No referendum required.

'Either way it's not Maori who didn't honour the Treaty.'

--------

Well that is interesting, because you claim to have read the words of Sir Apirana Ngata and agreed with them.....and then write something that totally contradicts that.

https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-NgaTrea-t1-g1-t1.html

CONFISCATED LANDS
In conclusion I would just like to say a word about the lands that were confiscated by past Governments. Some have said that these confiscations were wrong and that they contravened the articles of the Treaty of Waitangi.

The Government placed in the hands of the Queen of England, the sovereignty and the authority to make laws. Some sections of the Maori people violated that authority. War arose from this and blood was spilled. The law came into operation and land was taken in payment. This it self is a Maori custom—revenge, plunder to avenge a wrong. It was their own chiefs who ceded that right to the Queen. The confiscations cannot therefore be objected to in the light of the Treaty.

What we need to sort is whether Maori ceded sovereignty, or whether they entered into a co-governance partnership.
You are telling me that is all sorted now & what has transpired is just some 'overreach' by Labour, so lets all just be quiet about it cos it's all good now.
So go ask Tuku Morgan if that's correct, and he acknowledges Maori ceded sovereignty.
Go ask Willie Jackson the same question.
Go ask the history teachers teaching the new Aoteroa New Zealand history course at secondary school.
Go ask the Judges at the Supreme Court.
Go ask the academics at our Universities and Polytechs.
Go ask Rawiri Waititi.
Go ask Marama Jackson.

I bet if you go and ask the question, you'll find that it's far from 'all sorted out'. David Seymour did not get into politics to fight on this issue, but Rawiri Waititi did. So lets look closely at who foisted the 'co-governance' agenda on us, and lets find out what they intend to do next and how far they wish to take this, because if anything is causing 'division' then it is the germination & propogation of this clear revisionism by those seeking power and aggrandisement for themselves.

[Logen Ninefingers]

One word.
Honest.

Well in stating that I find your comment deeply dishonest, because if it is not it is shameful. When did 'fighting in the streets' (violence) become a viable answer & solution to a democratic expression of will? These two men purport to be leaders of 'their people', and their personal power and status gives them a platform which is not afforded to ordinary people, and you just declared that, rather than incitement, their comments represent 'honesty'. So it is your view that the majority of Maori will effectively 'go to war' against the government and their rightful citizens. Why do you take this view? Because perhaps you believe that the majority of Maori are violent and easily led around by the nose by people like Morgan and Jackson? The other perspective, probably shared by people who are not as gullible / bigotted as you, would be that Morgan and Jackson make such threats merely to blackmail and pressure the government so that they can get their way.

[Daytr]

Well in stating that I find your comment deeply dishonest, because if it is not it is shameful. When did 'fighting in the streets' (violence) become a viable answer & solution to a democratic expression of will? These two men purport to be leaders of 'their people', and their personal power and status gives them a platform which is not afforded to ordinary people, and you just declared that, rather than incitement, their comments represent 'honesty'. So it is your view that the majority of Maori will effectively 'go to war' against the government and their rightful citizens. Why do you take this view? Because perhaps you believe that the majority of Maori are violent and easily led around by the nose by people like Morgan and Jackson? The other perspective, probably shared by people who are not as gullible / bigotted as you, would be that Morgan and Jackson make such threats merely to blackmail and pressure the government so that they can get their way.

Nope it's you saying that not me.
However I do think there will be very large protests with both Maōri & reasonable Europeans and other races I'm sure combining together.

That could potentially spill over to riots etc, who knows & it perhaps depends on how the massive protests are policed.
It could be hundreds of thousands of people coming together and make the recent anti vaxx & mandate numbers look like a couple in the middle of a packed Eden Park.

But the reality is, there is no need for a referendum and its interesting that you keep pushing something that I think most Maori would strongly object to.

I wonder if Shane Jones or Winston Peter's are in favour of a referendum? I doubt it.
We know Luxon is against it.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Nope it's you saying that not me.
However I do think there will be very large protests with both Maōri & reasonable Europeans and other races I'm sure combining together.

That could potentially spill over to riots etc, who knows & it perhaps depends on how the massive protests are policed.
It could be hundreds of thousands of people coming together and make the recent anti vaxx & mandate numbers look like a couple in the middle of a packed Eden Park.

But the reality is, there is no need for a referendum and its interesting that you keep pushing something that I think most Maori would strongly object to.

I wonder if Shane Jones or Winston Peter's are in favour of a referendum? I doubt it.
We know Luxon is against it.

Well you continue on two tangents: Saying that 'reasonable' (code for Leftist no doubt) 'Europeans and other races' will join the activists and revisionists in protests....WHICH COULD SPILL OVER INTO RIOTS!! Since when did 'reasonable' people also 'riot'?!

Again, this is just more of this constant line of threatening violence: submit, or we could get violent.

Interesting that you admit 'overreach' by those who have been pushing co-governance.....a short while you would label as racist anyone who opposed it.

So you tell me how we sort out 'the principles of the treaty' without a referendum? You obviously do not trust the citizens of this country to engage in direct democracy (maybe you support totalitarianism) but would be happy for the government to change the law and scrap the 'partnership' part? After all, the people did elect the government. Let me know.

[Getty]

One word.
Honest.

Case being heard at the District Court.
Mr Seymour, why did you call Mr Jackson a dirty black barstard?

Because l was being honest!

Judge Daytr thumps his gavel down, shouting, case dismissed!

[Daytr]

'Either way it's not Maori who didn't honour the Treaty.'

--------

Well that is interesting, because you claim to have read the words of Sir Apirana Ngata and agreed with them.....and then write something that totally contradicts that.

https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-NgaTrea-t1-g1-t1.html

CONFISCATED LANDS
In conclusion I would just like to say a word about the lands that were confiscated by past Governments. Some have said that these confiscations were wrong and that they contravened the articles of the Treaty of Waitangi.

The Government placed in the hands of the Queen of England, the sovereignty and the authority to make laws. Some sections of the Maori people violated that authority. War arose from this and blood was spilled. The law came into operation and land was taken in payment. This it self is a Maori custom—revenge, plunder to avenge a wrong. It was their own chiefs who ceded that right to the Queen. The confiscations cannot therefore be objected to in the light of the Treaty.

What we need to sort is whether Maori ceded sovereignty, or whether they entered into a co-governance partnership.
You are telling me that is all sorted now & what has transpired is just some 'overreach' by Labour, so lets all just be quiet about it cos it's all good now.
So go ask Tuku Morgan if that's correct, and he acknowledges Maori ceded sovereignty.
Go ask Willie Jackson the same question.
Go ask the history teachers teaching the new Aoteroa New Zealand history course at secondary school.
Go ask the Judges at the Supreme Court.
Go ask the academics at our Universities and Polytechs.
Go ask Rawiri Waititi.
Go ask Marama Jackson.

I bet if you go and ask the question, you'll find that it's far from 'all sorted out'. David Seymour did not get into politics to fight on this issue, but Rawiri Waititi did. So lets look closely at who foisted the 'co-governance' agenda on us, and lets find out what they intend to do next and how far they wish to take this, because if anything is causing 'division' then it is the germination & propogation of this clear revisionism by those seeking power and aggrandisement for themselves.

Where did I say it was all sorted?
You love making things up.

For starters the settlement with Ngapuhi the largest iwi in NZ hasn't even happened yet.

There is land that the Government confiscated in WWII for strategic purposes that still hasn't been returned.

However I think what has upset most people is the over reach by the Maori Labour caucus & the creation of Whata Ora etc. These can all be addressed without a referendum & I would support those changes.

Anyhoo why are we talking about a figment of David Seymour's imagination.
I suspect he doesn't even believe in it himself but he is playing to voter base just as Winston Peters does. Says a lot and used it as a bargaining chip with no real intention of following through. But ACT voters lapped up his act.

Off to the real world now, not imaginary one where the country is torn in two.

Haere ra

[Logen Ninefingers]

Where did I say it was all sorted?
You love making things up.

For starters the settlement with Ngapuhi the largest iwi in NZ hasn't even happened yet.

There is land that the Government confiscated in WWII for strategic purposes that still hasn't been returned.

However I think what has upset most people is the over reach by the Maori Labour caucus & the creation of Whata Ora etc. These can all be addressed without a referendum & I would support those changes.

Anyhoo why are we talking about a figment of David Seymour's imagination.
I suspect he doesn't even believe in it himself but he is playing to voter base just as Winston Peters does. Says a lot and used it as a bargaining chip with no real intention of following through. But ACT voters lapped up his act.

Off to the real world now, not imaginary one where the country is torn in two.

Haere ra

What 'figment of (his) imagination' are you talking about?

[Logen Ninefingers]

David Lange, former Labour PM, writing in the year 2000 -

"As our increasingly dismal national day continues to show, the treaty is no basis for nationhood. It doesn’t express the fundamental rights and responsibilities of citizenship, and it doesn’t have any unifying concept. The importance it has for Maori people is a constant reminder that governments in a democracy should meet their legal and moral obligations, but for the country taken as a whole, that is, and must be, the limit of its significance.

Here I come to the dangers posed by the increasing entrenchment of the treaty in statute. The treaty itself contains no principles which can usefully guide government or courts. It is a bald agreement, anchored in its time and place, and the public interest in it is the same as the public interest in enforcing any properly-made agreement. To go further than that is to acknowledge the existence of undemocratic forms of rights, entitlements, or sovereignty.

The treaty is a wonderful stick for activists to beat the rest of us with, but it could never have assumed the importance it has without the complicity of others. It came to prominence in liberal thought in the seventies, when many who were concerned about the abuse of the democratic process by the government of the day began to see the treaty as a potential source of alternative authority. It’s been the basis of a self-perpetuating industry in academic and legal circles. Many on the left of politics who sympathise with Maori aspiration have identified with the cause of the treaty, either not knowing or not caring that its implications are profoundly undemocratic."

[Getty]

David Lange, former Labour PM, writing in the year 2000 -

"As our increasingly dismal national day continues to show, the treaty is no basis for nationhood. It doesn’t express the fundamental rights and responsibilities of citizenship, and it doesn’t have any unifying concept. The importance it has for Maori people is a constant reminder that governments in a democracy should meet their legal and moral obligations, but for the country taken as a whole, that is, and must be, the limit of its significance.

Here I come to the dangers posed by the increasing entrenchment of the treaty in statute. The treaty itself contains no principles which can usefully guide government or courts. It is a bald agreement, anchored in its time and place, and the public interest in it is the same as the public interest in enforcing any properly-made agreement. To go further than that is to acknowledge the existence of undemocratic forms of rights, entitlements, or sovereignty.

The treaty is a wonderful stick for activists to beat the rest of us with, but it could never have assumed the importance it has without the complicity of others. It came to prominence in liberal thought in the seventies, when many who were concerned about the abuse of the democratic process by the government of the day began to see the treaty as a potential source of alternative authority. It’s been the basis of a self-perpetuating industry in academic and legal circles. Many on the left of politics who sympathise with Maori aspiration have identified with the cause of the treaty, either not knowing or not caring that its implications are profoundly undemocratic."

Judge Daytr.

Too honest!
Dismissed!

[Logen Ninefingers]

Anthony Willy is a Barrister and Solicitor, who served as a Judge on four Courts: District, Environment, Tax and Valuation. He is a former Lecturer in Law at Canterbury University. He presently acts as an Arbitrator, a Commercial mediator, a Resource Management Act Commissioner, and is a Director of several companies.

----

'There are a number of important points to note about this (the Treaty) document. They are:

The Treaty of Waitangi is not a “Treaty” which was then, or now, recognised at International law. The law relating to treaties is clear. They can only result from undertakings made between sovereign powers. Whatever misconceptions the Colonial office in London may have temporarily entertained about the governance of these far away Isles in the 1830s it is clear beyond doubt that there was no Sovereign recognised by its inhabitants, and no settled form of governance in the nature of a nation state. The country was occupied by a number of tribes each exercising a degree of control in the areas in which they settled but all of which were liable to be displaced at any time by the stronger and more war-like. Furthermore the document has not been enshrined in New Zealand statute law.

If the document is not a Treaty recognisable at law then it can only be in the nature of a contract entered into by the signatories, and like all contracts it was and is to be observed in good faith. Thus, the Maori signatories had and continue to have a duty to cede to the British Crown sovereignty over all property which they individually or collectively possess. This is no different from any other subject of the Crown in relation to land ownership. We none of us own our land absolutely, we hold it in estate in fee simple from the Crown, but our title is good against the whole world. So it was in the case of the Maori inhabitants. Ownership of their land was guaranteed and only the Crown had the right of purchase. This has been well understood since the time of the signing. It conferred valuable benefits on the Maori population. They became British citizens enjoyed the benefits of the Rule of law and the protection of the Crown from any other foreign incursions of the like of the French, Spanish, Dutch, or Portuguese all of which were aggressive colonial powers at the time. This is what is expressed in Article 2. It guarantees to the Chiefs who signed the document undisturbed possession of their lands estates forest fisheries etc. as long as they wish to retain them. It was not a guarantee that these rights would enure in the case of alienated lands. This is so because of the quid pro quo contained in article 3 which was grant to all “natives of New Zealand the rights and privileges of British subjects.”

As to the notion of Partnership it was and is constitutionally impossible for the Crown to enter into a partnership with her subjects. She can as she did in 1840 make promises to them but by definition, the Crown is supreme, and the people are subject to her laws albeit under the then British system of parliamentary government.'