HGH - Heartland Group Holdings

[Master98]

Generally such order won't go through at current market price, don't know why this order can be on market.

[blobbles]

I might buy a couple of 'em and enjoy the sudden spike for the few seconds the price sky rockets!

[Minerbarejet]

hope this isnt you mucking about, moosie

[Master98]

HNZ still could be a takeover target according its lagging price, any thoughts?

[Master98]

pleasure to read your depth analysis

[mouse]

There is no reason whatsoever for Haier to sell F&P finance. Haier is Chinese, they have access to very cheap cash. To my mind the Chinese are a possibility to buy Heartland since it gives them another cheap entry to NZ, plus their funds can get a pretty safe return on a good interest rate. Heartland is an already set up business. It could easily go offshore to China. Remember, if the Chinese buy then it is for the top few billionaires, not the masses. There is no idea of corporate responsibility, they invest on a pure profit for 'me' motive.

pleasure to read your depth analysis

[mouse]

A useful report on the Auckland Airport.
http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/auckland-airport-to-add-new-crashed-status-to-arrivals-board/

[percy]

It is not unreasonable to believe the sale of F&P Finance to Heartland it is a real possibility.

Should Heartland buy FPF it would be well received by both shareholders and institutions,as it would be a great fit.
HNZ would be rerated upward very quickly.
Great catch 22;Should HNZ find FPF goes for more than they think it is worth,then the market will most probably rerate HNZ upwards because of the price FPF sold for.
Whatever, HNZ shareholders win either way.!!!

[mouse]

I would be more than surprised if FPF is sold to Heartland. Simply because Chinese business has oodles of spare cash that they want to spread around the globe. So, if FPF is sold, then more than likely it will be sold to a Chinese Company. Who can fund FPF afterwards with very cheap money. Thereby getting more cash out of China.

[percy]

Well, who knows. Haier will be interested in selling FPF for the highest price possible, but while a Chinese buyer might in theory have more money, they may be reticent in buying into a NZ based business and consumer finance company.

I do think that FPF's logical home outside of the Fisher & Paykel group is with Heartland, but it's entirely possible that Briscoes Group, or the Norman Family retail empire (Farmers, Stewart Dawson, Whitcoulls) may be keen to buy FPF and integrate the finance they offer their clients. Potentially the Warehouse too (they accept Q Card).

One never knows.
Be interesting to see Farmers buy FPF as it was not too many years ago that FPF brought Farmers Finance Company.![for huge money;from memory 60% of their finance book].

[Balance]

FPF will merge or takeover HNZ.

You read it here first.

[Balance]

And I'll happily participate in any capital raise or rights issue to help buy it. Sincerely hope you're right!

I undersand from well connected sources that FPF is not for sale.

In fact Haier is so impressed with FPF they have sent FPF executives to China to help with their finance operations there.

[percy]

I did ask if they were looking at F&P Finance.Brushed me off a bit by saying yes,but it has been for sale on and off for
about 12 years now,but yes amongst a lot of opportunities.
Post #784 1/12/2012
Yeah Right.!!!

[percy]

I undersand from well connected sources that FPF is not for sale.

In fact Haier is so impressed with FPF they have sent FPF executives to China to help with their finance operations there.

Always has been a very well business.

[Balance]

Always has been a very well business.

See that Haier is adding 100 new jobs to R&D, design team at FPA?

Sadly, hardly any coverage about that from the media.

Only the xenophobic reaction seems to get coverage?

I guess Haier will have the right people in place to manage the media when HNZ becomes FPF Bank?

[percy]

see that haier is adding 100 new jobs to r&d, design team at fpa?

Sadly, hardly any coverage about that from the media.

Only the xenophobic reaction seems to get coverage?

I guess haier will have the right people in place to manage the media when hnz becomes fpf bank?

Haier Bank.?

[CJ]

Warehouse would have to be a potential buyer for FPF. They've just bough Noel leeming and have their own credit card. Might be issues with Farmers as they would want Warehouse running their finance scheme.

Plus what about GE - they would love to add it to their book.

[Jaa]

I undersand from well connected sources that FPF is not for sale.

In fact Haier is so impressed with FPF they have sent FPF executives to China to help with their finance operations there.

I have also heard the same rumblings.

Haier bought FPA for its intellectual property and originally thought they would sell FPF. They have now realised that the finance business model is a key piece of intellectual property. They hope to take the model and replicate it in China.

So HNZ may just have to build their business the hard way, organically.

[mouse]

FPF will merge or takeover HNZ.

You read it here first.
HeartlandFP

[Balance]

HeartlandFP

More like Fisher & Paykel Heartland Bank.

Best outcome will be a 50/50 with F&P NZ (i.e.. Haier).

[kizame]

IF anybody buys FPF,it will be someone with deep pockets,not heartland.
Anyway if it's such a great asset why would anybody in their right mind sell it.
Stop speculating cos it's usually wrong imop.

[Balance]

Is this just pure speculation or is there something to back it up? Just interested, cheers.

Do what I do and talk to some FPA executives.

[percy]

Is this just pure speculation or is there something to back it up? Just interested, cheers.

Go back a page to Sparky The Clown's post #1531.You will note that Haier said they would sell FPF.
So one must speculate who would buy this fine company,if Haier did in fact sell it.
Heartland have said they would be interested.
So we can speculate.?

[Balance]

Wow, so can I infer from that reply FPA execs are telling you a merger or takeover is on the cards? Intersting! Based on the conversations you have had with these guys what probablility would you place on this occuring? Cheers.

Sorry, should have added, I don't know any of those execs (and I am not wealthy) so I imagine I wouldnt get a very interesting response if I gave the company a call. I will however attempt to as yo uhave suggested and will let you know how I get on.

What I was told at a function, after a few drinks, is that Haier is extremely pleased with their FPA investment and FPF has proven to be a huge positive surprise for them.

So now, they are looking to expand rather than sell.

And boyo, they have serious cash to do so!

[mouse]

Cool thanks mate. Sounds like there is potential for a mutually benefical deal to be made between both FPF and HNZ. Will keep an eye on it.
which brings us back in a circle to Heartland being a take-over target. Selling under its NTA of 90 cents. I suspect a major stop on this happening already is the high NZ dollar. I wonder how many would sell at a dollar a share?

[robbo24]

which brings us back in a circle to Heartland being a take-over target.

Let's settle this once and for all. Who has the best record for picking takeovers? Make the call, chosen one.

[mouse]

Let's settle this once and for all. Who has the best record for picking takeovers? Make the call, chosen one.
No idea. But Heartland seems to me to be a very ripe target. It is below NTA. It has a banking license. We await events. I would like the share price to get well over a dollar to prevent a cheap buy at least. But NZ investors seem to have fairly short horizons.

[Balance]

I don't see Heartland as a buyout target. Anyone buying a NZ Bank would have to meet all sorts of "good character" tests so it limits the pool somewhat. The management I have spoken with are excited about growing the business.

Good character?

If HNZ's banking license is any indication, the bar is not set very high in NZ, is it?

[mouse]

Good character?

If HNZ's banking license is any indication, the bar is not set very high in NZ, is it?

The bar is, have you some cash? Lend us a dollar!

[winner69]

We all know the world ain't fixed yet ... Banks are still under capitalised ...even hnz

John Kay sensible esteemed economist market commentator refers to Anat Admati and Martin Hellwig who reckon banks need more capital – lots more capital, not minimal provision based on a pseudoscientific calculation of risk-weighted assets.......before he concluded that the only safe bank is one with more capital than it could possibly require. Like banks of old.

And that means more an equity ratio of 14%

Prob most reckon this is load of old crock because these times a different eh but have a read ...it is short

http://www.johnkay.com/2013/04/03/8901

[percy]

Even HNZ?
No.!!!!!
We have been down that blind street with Snoopy and learnt that HNZ has the best equity ratio of any listed bank in Australia and New Zealand.As we know the Australian Banks are very strong with few problem areas,so we can surmise that HNZ is in great shape.

[winner69]

Percy ....you didn't read it properly

All banks in the world are over leveraged, even the Aussie ones .....and just 2008 events triggered a crisis that required heaps more capital to be injected ....the whole system is not sustainable unless you believe this time it's different

As Kay says the actions/remedies of today is wishing that one can triumph of hope over experience .....and the world needs to move on from 'the socialisation of the losses of financial institutions" as he puts it

Won't affect banks today or tomorrow but one day banks and financial institutions will have heaps more capital than today

[percy]

The spread of loans,the type of loans,and equity ratio of HNZ puts them in a lot stronger position than the banks refered to by John Kay.
No risk of loans to non paying nations. No concentration of risk.
HNZ capital ratios are excellent.
I think John Kay would be proud of them.

[robbo24]

Today is dividend pay-day, yeah? Who is excited?

[Minerbarejet]

Today is dividend pay-day, yeah? Who is excited?
Can hardly contain myself. TIC. however, nice to have a bit of extra plus a capital gain

[percy]

Can hardly contain myself. TIC. however, nice to have a bit of extra plus a capital gain

Get used to it as both are on going.We find ourselves "well positioned."

[macduffy]

From my post of 27 February:


I still reckon that the RBNZ should tweak the weightings for higher loan to valuation lending - to act as a bit of a brake on housing speculation. No doubt the banks would protest on the grounds of impractibility, lack of systems etc. but where there's a will there's a way, even if a few more staff have to be employed to collect the information.

Interesting to read now that the RBNZ has this under consideration.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/8520350/Banks-shrink-from-risky-mortgages-ahead-of-RB-moves

[winner69]

From my post of 27 February:


Interesting to read now that the RBNZ has this under consideration.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/8520350/Banks-shrink-from-risky-mortgages-ahead-of-RB-moves

Oh dear macduffy ... you will get percy into a tiz .... HNZ lending is of the highest quality and most of the comments in the article don't apply to them ... they operate in niche areas.

At leat that is what percy will probably say

[mouse]

Heartland is a finance company in drag. Good idea.

[percy]

Yeah but Percy would be right.

Heartland are not heavily chasing the mortgage funding of villas in Mt Eden and Westmere in Auckland, or first home buyers in suburbia.

They have three distinct channels:

1. Consumer funding like white labelling new car finance
2. Agricultural funding like working capital, machinery and plant, livestock finance
3. Small business finance liker invoicing finance, and working capital, asset finance

On top of that, there is insurance, and yes, the ability to offer mortgages on new homes.

They offer it because all banks offer it, but they don't focus on it. My own homework has shown they have a symbiotic relationship with the big banks like ASB and ANZ, where the big boys loan on the land, and Heartland work with the borrower and big bank to provide the funding for the machinery, plant and stock.

Exactly.
Thanks Sparky The Clown.You save me a lot of hard work and always manage to put things better than I can.

[macduffy]

They offer it because all banks offer it, but they don't focus on it. My own homework has shown they have a symbiotic relationship with the big banks like ASB and ANZ, where the big boys loan on the land, and Heartland work with the borrower and big bank to provide the funding for the machinery, plant and stock

Without treading too heavily on UDC's turf - at least in ANZ's case!

[NZSilver]

Go 80, go boy go!

[percy]

I hope Hoop will update us with one of his great charts and comments,but the way I see HNZ's chart is it in a very strong uptrend.
We are all "well positioned." lol.

[robbo24]

No we aren't. There is a 70-75c band that Heartland is expected to trade at for some time. This is because it doesn't have its banking license, which won't be coming for around 2 1/2 years yet.

Sparky, please remember to use your sarcasm font for posts like this.

[robbo24]

LOL :t_up:

Ah yes very comical!

[Banksie]

You got that! Too bl00dy obvious by half! ... Isn't there some rule against this?

Are you suggesting there is market manipulation? If so, I would be interest to understand how this works. I can see how someone could artificially work up the price during the day but at closing time surely there would need to be a large buyer in the market to purchase the seller's shares at the inflated price.

(sorry if I am just being naive)

[K1W1G0LD]

You got that! Too bl00dy obvious by half! ... Isn't there some rule against this?

They must have been reading this column..............no party poopers today.

[biker]

Watch out for Mr Seller at 4:55 ;)

Mr Seller at 4.55 went home earlier in the day

[kizame]

Am Liking this,A nice solid uptrend. The best kind of trend,slow and steady,maybe meaning there isn't the need for the long consolidation periods.

[Banksie]

Thanks for the explanation belgarion - that makes sense. I was looking at it for the wrong angle :).

[K1W1G0LD]

Or they've achieved their aim and bought as many as they want and are now having a good sit back and a glass of Chablis ...
I get the impression some of them might be Ale drinkers too , Belgarion..................would'nt know what Chablis is!!

[mouse]

Thanks for the explanation belgarion - that makes sense. I was looking at it for the wrong angle :).
The same system can be used to artifically ramp up the price of a share. At close of trade, buy enough to push the share up by a cent. So it is difficult to know what is happening. Investors are a bit funny, as in they cannot see what the other chap is doing. So making wrong decisions on the right information.

[robbo24]

Significant off-market sale of shares through Graham Russell Kennedy @0.76. If I was buying in that would be my target price now

I'm not so sure this is a transaction which alienates him from the shares - looking at the date of the off-market trade (15 March 2013) it could just be a standard market value on the date transaction to the trust mentioned in the disclosure.

Trust accounting is a weird and wonderful beast and this transaction may not be indicative of an entry price.

[Snoopy]

Percy wrote on the PGW thread:
>
> I think it is just a case of manners .
> I always apologise when I have been wrong.
> The personal attack was very much against me on HNZ thread.
>

I think someone is mixing up a clash of opinions as a personal attack.

>
> HNZ directors and management told us they were engaging with The Reserve Bank for a banking licence,and it was not too far >away,while Snoopy would not listen,but chose to post that according to Reserve Bank Banking Licence application form it would be 3 >years.One phone call was all it would have taken him to check that out.Analyst ? Come on!
>

Percy, I took the reserve bank website at face value. If they said they required three years of accounts before they could confer a banking licence then who am I not to believe them? The fact that they seemingly ignored their own rules and granted Heartland a banking licence is up to them, and was an unexpected outcome to me. But I don't owe anyone an apology for the reserve bank changing their own rules!

If you want an apology you should ask the reserve bank to apologize to Heartland shareholders for having misleading information on their website.

>
> Much the same with HNZ's equity ratio.Analyst? No.
>

What you conveniently forget to mention Percy is that Heartland while having a satisfactory equity ratio in the strict sense compared to other banks it does not have the other tier one capital that the major banks have. On a full tier one capital comparative basis Heartland does not come out well. They are currently shrinking their loan book which is helping. But Heartland are far from safe from needing new capital. Indeed they will certainly take a hit to their capital if they sell off some more of their troubled loan portfolio at a discount as planned.

Furthermore the seasonal lending favoured by Heartland requires a higher capital ration than the mainstream banks. Another fact you keep forgetting to mention.

Thus the equity issues for Heartland are very much alive. It is head in the sand analysis to claim otherwise IMO

>
>Both of these grave errors of judgement could have influenced any one reading his posts.
>

And I hope they did. The position of Heartland is far more precarious than you claim it is. But I see little point in commenting further until more information is in the public domain. The half year report did not contain the information to make a judgment on how satisfactory the capital position of HNZ is. The full year report will tell the story. Frankly I would not put a dollar of my own investment capital into Heartland until either:

1/ A cash issue is announced

OR

2/ The full year accounts are announced

This always has been and remains my position.

SNOOPY

[winner69]

Just as well heartland BANK is a NZ bank ...like that Coop Bank .....they may need to wind up the NZ thing a bit soon as that other new BANK the Indian one apparently is about to wind up their presence in NZ

Do we overlook the competition ....or find out what they are up to?

[percy]

Percy wrote on the PGW thread:
>
> I think it is just a case of manners .
> I always apologise when I have been wrong.
> The personal attack was very much against me on HNZ thread.
>

I think someone is mixing up a clash of opinions as a personal attack.

>
> HNZ directors and management told us they were engaging with The Reserve Bank for a banking licence,and it was not too far >away,while Snoopy would not listen,but chose to post that according to Reserve Bank Banking Licence application form it would be 3 >years.One phone call was all it would have taken him to check that out.Analyst ? Come on!
>

Percy, I took the reserve bank website at face value. If they said they required three years of accounts before they could confer a banking licence then who am I not to believe them? The fact that they seemingly ignored their own rules and granted Heartland a banking licence is up to them, and was an unexpected outcome to me. But I don't owe anyone an apology for the reserve bank changing their own rules!

If you want an apology you should ask the reserve bank to apologize to Heartland shareholders for having misleading information on their website.

>
> Much the same with HNZ's equity ratio.Analyst? No.
>

What you conveniently forget to mention Percy is that Heartland while having a satisfactory equity ratio in the strict sense compared to other banks it does not have the other tier one capital that the major banks have. On a full tier one capital comparative basis Heartland does not come out well. They are currently shrinking their loan book which is helping. But Heartland are far from safe from needing new capital. Indeed they will certainly take a hit to their capital if they sell off some more of their troubled loan portfolio at a discount as planned.

Furthermore the seasonal lending favoured by Heartland requires a higher capital ration than the mainstream banks. Another fact you keep forgetting to mention.

Thus the equity issues for Heartland are very much alive. It is head in the sand analysis to claim otherwise IMO

>
>Both of these grave errors of judgement could have influenced any one reading his posts.
>

And I hope they did. The position of Heartland is far more precarious than you claim it is. But I see little point in commenting further until more information is in the public domain. The half year report did not contain the information to make a judgment on how satisfactory the capital position of HNZ is. The full year report will tell the story. Frankly I would not put a dollar of my own investment capital into Heartland until either:

1/ A cash issue is announced

OR

2/ The full year accounts are announced

This always has been and remains my position.

SNOOPY

You were wrong to take the Reserve Bank website at face value,without checking.One phone call was all that was needed.
Equity ratio was easy to check out.
Capital Raising.I think I will go with Sparky The Clown's view on this as he has spoken to the company.

[K1W1G0LD]

Percy wrote on the PGW thread:
>
> I think it is just a case of manners .
> I always apologise when I have been wrong.
> The personal attack was very much against me on HNZ thread.
>

I think someone is mixing up a clash of opinions as a personal attack.

>
> HNZ directors and management told us they were engaging with The Reserve Bank for a banking licence,and it was not too far >away,while Snoopy would not listen,but chose to post that according to Reserve Bank Banking Licence application form it would be 3 >years.One phone call was all it would have taken him to check that out.Analyst ? Come on!
>

Percy, I took the reserve bank website at face value. If they said they required three years of accounts before they could confer a banking licence then who am I not to believe them? The fact that they seemingly ignored their own rules and granted Heartland a banking licence is up to them, and was an unexpected outcome to me. But I don't owe anyone an apology for the reserve bank changing their own rules!

If you want an apology you should ask the reserve bank to apologize to Heartland shareholders for having misleading information on their website.

>
> Much the same with HNZ's equity ratio.Analyst? No.
>

What you conveniently forget to mention Percy is that Heartland while having a satisfactory equity ratio in the strict sense compared to other banks it does not have the other tier one capital that the major banks have. On a full tier one capital comparative basis Heartland does not come out well. They are currently shrinking their loan book which is helping. But Heartland are far from safe from needing new capital. Indeed they will certainly take a hit to their capital if they sell off some more of their troubled loan portfolio at a discount as planned.

Furthermore the seasonal lending favoured by Heartland requires a higher capital ration than the mainstream banks. Another fact you keep forgetting to mention.

Thus the equity issues for Heartland are very much alive. It is head in the sand analysis to claim otherwise IMO

>
>Both of these grave errors of judgement could have influenced any one reading his posts.
>

And I hope they did. The position of Heartland is far more precarious than you claim it is. But I see little point in commenting further until more information is in the public domain. The half year report did not contain the information to make a judgment on how satisfactory the capital position of HNZ is. The full year report will tell the story. Frankly I would not put a dollar of my own investment capital into Heartland until either:

1/ A cash issue is announced

OR

2/ The full year accounts are announced

This always has been and remains my position.

SNOOPY


Snoopy this is getting REALLY BORING.

[futurist]

Snoopy this is getting REALLY BORING.

Agreed! We have another attack in the States, a crazy dictator in North Korea declaring war, and a collapse of gold. Then we have this ongoing discussion in both the threads of HNZ and PGW.

Enough...

[winner69]

Without wanting to promote further argument, it seems we have two schools of thought here. Much as we have fundamentalist vs technicians, we have two kinds of fundamentalists, being "homeworkists" vs "balance sheetists".

I am a homeworkist, Snoopy is a sheetist.

Homeworkists use the balance sheet information, annual report information and other external data as "screeners", but don't see this as the be all and end all. We use earnings/revenue/growth/debt data to confirm that this is a company we wish to consider investing in. However, it is not the only tool we use. We like to ring and email the company, perhaps even visit them in person to ask questions about the company, management style, industry challenges and any other reasons to exclude or encourage investment. Homeworkists wouldn't visit a company without reading the balance sheet or other external data. They would normally weed out bad investments by using the data to screen out hopeless cases. What the homeworkist does is seek to find value in a company where things are getting better than the historical data available lets on, or not proceed further because behind the positive data are aspects of the company or industry that unimpresses the homeworkist.

Balance Sheetists predominately or solely rely on the historical information available. Asking questions of management or others is hopeless because people are too self interested to give honest answers. Management lie or can be evasive, and brokers are keen to push their own book which they profit from. They are only too happy to hurt smaller investors. External research like that issued from brokers rely too much on assumptive data and from people whose ethics or motives should be questioned. The only information that can be trusted is that which is published and audited. Therefore the only way to understand a company is to apply various metrics that are used to identify risk or reward. These metrics of course can be criticised as backwards looking, arbitrary, misleading and confusing. Equally, they help build a level of safety for the investor because unless the fiscals stack up, you'll never take the risk using news or information that isn't verifiable.

So who is right? Well, that's the thing about investing. You decide with what you are more comfortable with.

Maybe snoops is a bit of both .... a generalist

On other threads (as well as on this thread) he has done both the homework and the balance sheet stuff. The SCT thread is a great example

As part of your homeworkists style do you ever talk to the competitors / suppliers / customers .... you get some interesting insights that way .... and sometimes make you wonder what planet the man in the c-suite is on which is a worry but then on the other hand if the feedback is in line with what the c-suite says maybe the c-suite is being reasonably honest and not just saying the good stuff

I asked my contact at Cooperative Bank what they thought of Heartland .... sorry percy I won't say because you told me off the other day

[percy]

Why don't you start a Co-Op thread,so as any one who is interested can read about them.
May find yourself back to sending memos to yourself,again.!!! lol.

[winner69]

Coop think Heartland have done quite well and I sense that they have some respect for what they have achieved .... good eh .... and from I gather has/will make them compete more vigorously for retail deposits, esp for those investors who want to stay with NZ owned banks outside of Kiwi

Hope this has not tainted the HNZ thread seeing it so precious

[mouse]

Why don't you start a Co-Op thread,so as any one who is interested can read about them.
May find yourself back to sending memos to yourself,again.!!! lol.
Now, now Percy. That wasn't kind.
Actually, I am a bit worried about banks being so keen on lending on houses and land.
Spain is now rumoured to be planning a capital levy on land to pay for their bale-out. Say a 10% tax on the capital value of property. So that you get caught in the programme of 'helping out.' A country in this case. With problems following.
Plus it is property that made the banks broke recently. Why are banks who loan on property a better risk than those who, like Heartland, who loan on anything?

[percy]

Coop think Heartland have done quite well and I sense that they have some respect for what they have achieved .... good eh .... and from I gather has/will make them compete more vigorously for retail deposits, esp for those investors who want to stay with NZ owned banks outside of Kiwi

Hope this has not tainted the HNZ thread seeing it so precious

Spent the last 10 minutes trying to figure out how to start the thread for you.
Would some kind person please start a thread for Co-Op .

[percy]

Spent the last 10 minutes trying to figure out how to start the thread for you.
Would some kind person please start a thread for Co-Op .

Well done Percy old son.
Set yourself something to do and you do it.

[Arbitrage]

The ozzie banks are doing well. Hopefully this rubs off on Heartland.

[percy]

The ozzie banks are doing well. Hopefully this rubs off on Heartland.

I see that .ANZ doing very well,increasing divie too.
What I am awaiting is ANZ owned UDC's result,as I feel UDC is closer to Heartland than the Aussie banks.
I am also looking forward to a Macquarie Heartland presentation on the 9th May to be given by CEO Jeff Greenslade and CFO Craig Stephen.

[percy]

Enjoyed a walk "down town" Tauranga this afternoon.
What a lovely place.Felt at home knowing there is a Heartland bank here.!!!!!

[mouse]

Enjoyed a walk "down town" Tauranga this afternoon.
What a lovely place.Felt at home knowing there is a Heartland bank here.!!!!!

But there is not one at Sydenham, Christchurch! Percy, please do something about it.

[mouse]

Percy, are you there? Or out of reach of the net?

[winner69]

I see that .ANZ doing very well,increasing divie too.
What I am awaiting is ANZ owned UDC's result,as I feel UDC is closer to Heartland than the Aussie banks.
I am also looking forward to a Macquarie Heartland presentation on the 9th May to be given by CEO Jeff Greenslade and CFO Craig Stephen.

Hope you enjoy the preso

Might be the impetus for the share price eh - like Kathmandu and Jbh took off after a macquaries preso ......then again FBU collapsed

So tell mr jeff to put his best suit on ...brokers love red ties ....have some really good powerpoint stuff with him ....above all else talk positive .....give a real profit figure for this year ....and make sure jeff looks them in the eye and smiles a lot .....no ums and aghs and ooze confidence,
.

Brokers / analysts hate being given the fingers and ignored ....give them a cuddle and they happy

I look forward to your detailed report on the 8th ....and watching the share price rocket to 90 cents.

Better than betting on its a dundeel ......so just for interest sake I going to buy 10 grand of shares on Monday .... And if the divie is better than 1.10 by Friday I cash up .....just like going to the races

[percy]

Hi mouse.
Am enjoying the rain at Tairua.look forward to enjoying the rain in Thames tomorrow,and at Kawakawa bay on Monday.Then back to the cold on tuesday.
Should Heartland be silly enough to open [or reopen The Money Club ] in Sydenham I would sell my shares.
Too many people and businesses have moved out of the area.
The banks have moved to Barrington Mall.

[percy]

Hope you enjoy the preso

Might be the impetus for the share price eh - like Kathmandu and Jbh took off after a macquaries preso ......then again FBU collapsed

So tell mr jeff to put his best suit on ...brokers love red ties ....have some really good powerpoint stuff with him ....above all else talk positive .....give a real profit figure for this year ....and make sure jeff looks them in the eye and smiles a lot .....no ums and aghs and ooze confidence,
.

Brokers / analysts hate being given the fingers and ignored ....give them a cuddle and they happy

I look forward to your detailed report on the 8th ....and watching the share price rocket to 90 cents.

Better than betting on its a dundeel ......so just for interest sake I going to buy 10 grand of shares on Monday .... And if the divie is better than 1.10 by Friday I cash up .....just like going to the races

Yes it is always informative going to these presentations.I have learnt a lot by going to agms,or anywhere where senior management speak.I am rather hoping Macquaries have a research report they give us.I ran into forest at Tauranga sharetraders get together.I first meet him at HNZ's agm.He goes to as many meetings as he can and is a wealth of knowledge.We are all very fortunate to have Sparky The Clown sharing with us his wealth of knowledge gained by talking to so many companies.I rather surprised myself with all the posts I posted from attending the agm,so I hope I may learn something new from thursday nights presentation.I am good friends with a retired bank manager who is a large HNZ shareholder,so hope to meet up with him and catch up with his thoughts.Better not wear my Postie woollie pullie on thursday night.
The volume of HNZ shares traded over the last few months has surprised me.With the steady progress they are making HNZ's future looks very bright.

[percy]

Better than betting on its a dundeel ......so just for interest sake I going to buy 10 grand of shares on Monday .... And if the divie is better than 1.10 by Friday I cash up .....just like going to the races


Great thinking.!!!!!!!!
However if you get it wrong you are still going to enjoy two fully imputed divies a year!!!!!! .

[CJ]

Speaking of divies, what is everyones veiw on the DRiP?

No discount but am still thinking of signing up and partaking, at least while the SP is below NTA as it is a good way to let my shareholdings increase and the more money they have in the bank, the more money they can make.

Thoughts?

[percy]

Speaking of divies, what is everyones veiw on the DRiP?

No discount but am still thinking of signing up and partaking, at least while the SP is below NTA as it is a good way to let my shareholdings increase and the more money they have in the bank, the more money they can make.

Thoughts?

I think you are right,an excellent way of building your holding without paying broker fees ,and good for the company.I am disappointed there is no discount.
As I have taken a "good" position for both my wife and myself I will take cash divies.I don't intend buying more or selling any either.

[winner69]

Great thinking.!!!!!!!!
However if you get it wrong you are still going to enjoy two fully imputed divies a year!!!!!! .

no no percy ..... just a punt like the TAB

Money on tomorrow ... collect on Friday

Unlike the TAB at worst get all the cash back. This is taking a chance of losing a grand if Jeff doesn't smile enough and says its not going to plan (wouldn't turn up would he) or making 500-1000 if everybody salivates over his every word

Just for a bit of fun .... and to keep the brokers happy as their cut is almost as criminal as the TAB

[percy]

no no percy ..... just a punt like the TAB

Money on tomorrow ... collect on Friday

Unlike the TAB at worst get all the cash back. This is taking a chance of losing a grand if Jeff doesn't smile enough and says its not going to plan (wouldn't turn up would he) or making 500-1000 if everybody salivates over his every word

Just for a bit of fun .... and to keep the brokers happy as their cut is almost as criminal as the TAB

Well I wouldn't do it.
Presentation is on Thursday night to retail investors,not intos.
No matter how bullish the preentation is, I would not expect it to "move the market."
Usually guests at these does are existing shareholders so can't see them rushing out on Friday to double their holding.They may add to their holdings over the next few weeks.
Should there be anything exciting announced, or Macquarie's have a very positive out look for HNZ, I will let you know before the market opens on Friday.
I am sure there will be no "new" news.
With the Dow well up on friday NZX should be up on Monday anyway.!

[kizame]

Well have just been downtown (Tga) and the front of the heartland store,very prominant position only has the word Heartland on the front still.How many people would know what this company did,very few out there in non investing land would have a clue what they did,it has absolutely no other signwork to tell you that you can put your money there,or even that they are a bank.
Perhaps they should get their act together on that front as it is free advertising space,Percy tell the man to put some bloody signage up,my gosh,in retail world thats just a sin. Suggestion for a new name Heartland Blank.

[percy]

Well have just been downtown (Tga) and the front of the heartland store,very prominant position only has the word Heartland on the front still.How many people would know what this company did,very few out there in non investing land would have a clue what they did,it has absolutely no other signwork to tell you that you can put your money there,or even that they are a bank.
Perhaps they should get their act together on that front as it is free advertising space,Percy tell the man to put some bloody signage up,my gosh,in retail world thats just a sin. Suggestion for a new name Heartland Blank.

Go stand accross the road and look at the huge sign on top of the building.HEARTLAND BANK.

[kizame]

Mate I was across the road and never noticed it,it should be on the signwork of the frontage itself,hmmn I am part blind-and they need better point of sale.

[percy]

I am part blind-and they need better point of sale.

I would think BIG part blind.!!!!! [I am sorry you have bad eyesight.]
The whole corner was Heartland.
A bold statement.
Huge sign on top of the building Heartland Bank.
I must admit I did not know Heartland had a Tauranga branch,and when I saw it I was taken aback.
I thought it looked fabulous.Impressed.

[winner69]

I would think BIG part blind.!!!!! [I am sorry you have bad eyesight.]
The whole corner was Heartland.
A bold statement.
Huge sign on top of the building Heartland Bank.
I must admit I did not know Heartland had a Tauranga branch,and when I saw it I was taken aback.
I thought it looked fabulous.Impressed.

Calm down percy .... don't want to get too excited when you are away from home

[winner69]

Mate I was across the road and never noticed it,it should be on the signwork of the frontage itself,hmmn I am part blind-and they need better point of sale.

is this what a BANK should look like kizame

[Xerof]

Yeah Percy, what will the missus say when she finds out you are looking at other signs when away on business........:p

[winner69]

whoops wrong thread

[percy]

Yeah Percy, what will the missus say when she finds out you are looking at other signs when away on business........:p

She is up here with me.
Just asked her what she thought of the signage?
"Didn't take much notice of it." lol.

[karen1]

whoops wrong thread

Stirrer!!! Good bank in that pic, though.

[percy]

whoops wrong thread

Times like this I wish I could take photos and post them like you.!!!
Even if they are/were on the wrong thread.lol

[winner69]

got the camera with me today percy and I see if I can take photo of Wellington branch

Think Heartland BANK dont wont customers to actually visit them ... their website doesn't seem to show where branches are physically located ... but I think I know where it is

Do all stuff over the phone and online .... saves heaps of costs eh .... bigger dividends

[kizame]

Now thats what I call a Bank sign PERCY, On the signage on the front of the premisis not on the the roof,after all surely it's people on the footpath that they want depositing and borrowing,not as they are flying past.

[percy]

The local Heartland representitve who is "close to the customer"at stock sales yards would most probably disagree with you.
Marac has traded most successfully from very modest premises for years.
Heartland will be where, and avaliable where every, and however their customers want them.
If they give the customer what they want, Heartland will get what they want.Some things like great service don't change.
I see the presentation I am going to on Thursday night as further proof of Heartland keeping close to both investors and depositors.

[percy]

Now thats what I call a Bank sign PERCY, On the signage on the front of the premisis not on the the roof,after all surely it's people on the footpath that they want depositing and borrowing,not as they are flying past.

Agree to disagree.Check out Westpac.

[CJ]

Agree to disagree.Check out Westpac.Was just going to bring them up. ANZ also doesn't meantion 'bank'.

I also checked ASB, then remembered that they decided to add the word Bank since they shortened their name to ASB as apparently, people forgot what the B stood for.

[percy]

Was just going to bring them up. ANZ also doesn't meantion 'bank'.

I also checked ASB, then remembered that they decided to add the word Bank since they shortened their name to ASB as apparently, people forgot what the B stood for.

I don't think BNZ has bank in their signage either.

[kizame]

The point I'm trying to make here,is that the other big banks are all household names,Heartland to most kiwis is new to the game,even though they have Marac.Surely a bit more recognition by the general public and their target market SME S would do them the power of good,otherwise why have prominent shop frontages in reasonable footpath count areas,hmmm.

Anyway I'm not going to convince you Percy as you are to HNZ what a manchester united fan is to their team,haha.

[CJ]

Agree they are not a household name but I dont think they want to be a mainstream bank, at this stage at least. They are trying to carve out a niche and (hopefully) those that are their target market know who they are and that they are a bank.

[Under Surveillance]

Terry Hall in the Dominion Post today has it that "Shareholders in fast-growing Heartland hope it will get a banking licence ....". I don't know whether that represents a failure to communicate by Heartland, or incompetence on the part of a has-been hack.

[Jay]

Yes I read that and thought where has he been - must have been out of the country!

[mouse]

Terry Hall in the Dominion Post today has it that "Shareholders in fast-growing Heartland hope it will get a banking licence ....". I don't know whether that represents a failure to communicate by Heartland, or incompetence on the part of a has-been hack.

A failure to communicate. We have to SHOUT BANK. BANK. BANK. And keep shouting.
Teaching. The method.
First, you tell them what you are going to tell them.
Then you tell them.
Then you TELL THEM AGAIN.
Heartland is a bank, not a motel or whatever.
But they should have a branch in Sydenham!

Percy, over to you. It is raining here.

[biker]

Terry Hall in the Dominion Post today has it that "Shareholders in fast-growing Heartland hope it will get a banking licence ....". I don't know whether that represents a failure to communicate by Heartland, or incompetence on the part of a has-been hack.

I dont't know about a has-been hack, but it is a rather fundamental error for a seasoned journalist.

[CJ]

No banking license yet, then the answer is obvious - Terry Hall is Snoopy!NNnnnnooooooooooooooooo.

Lets not start this one up again. There goes another 2 pages on this thread about rules and discussions and not agreeing to disagree....

[kizame]

I apologise and retract the mischievous comment!

It is odd that a seasoned journo who normally writes very well about NZ stocks would get that wrong, but then perhaps HNZ should spend more effort on trumpeting that fact.

Then again. patient and diligent investors who understand this have a window of opportunity that others don't have.

I may not be too patient,but I am a DILigent investor. I have High hopes for this co.

[Snoopy]

Terry Hall in the Dominion Post today has it that "Shareholders in fast-growing Heartland hope it will get a banking licence ....". I don't know whether that represents a failure to communicate by Heartland, or incompetence on the part of a has-been hack.


To be fair I think the Heartland remark was a peripheral remark to the main thrust of the article, and that was how well the Oz banks have done for NZ shareholders.

I think the main reason that I, er I mean Terry, wrote that Heartland comment was to demonstrate that being declared a bank might not be enough any more.

In times past, putting money in the bank came with the presumption that at some point in the future the depositor could get that money out again. Then came bank fees, followed by corporate bankers borrowing the security of the Mum and Dad investor to make profits while leaving them to suffer the losses when really big corporate deals went bad. The problem as I see it is that the word 'bank' no longer necessarily implies the pillar of trust that existed in days of yore.

Graeme Wheeler granted Heartland a banking licence in his first week on the job. He apparently changed the bank licence application to do it rules, which as reserve bank governor he was entitled to do. But I have to ask did he also devalue the word 'bank' in the process? By their own admission Heartland do not attempt to go toe to toe with the big banks. Heartland outsources their foreign exchange offerings for example.

Heartland have their niche in machinery and farm financing, but how many people on the street really see them as bank? They still look to me more like a finance company with a bank sticker plastered on top. Their credit rating is well below that of the big Aussie banks, although I would point out it would be unreasonable to expect anything else.

The point is Heartland is not too big to fail. I concede that from a management perspective, Heartland are making a good fist of things, so far. But even a good climber is still vulnerable to an avalanche of bad debt. Good luck to all Heartland investors. I may join you one day. But first I intend to wait for another snowmelt, and all should be revealed in the Full Year annual accounts in the second half of the year.

SNOOPY

[kizame]

Bank will always mean something to me,an ordinary on the street kinda person,and although they may have a wee bit of a bad rap due mostly to the aussies fee greed,it still has an aura around it,I think that what goes around comes around,and eventually they will all be repected as such again.

[Under Surveillance]

I think the main reason that I, er I mean Terry, wrote that Heartland comment was to demonstrate that being declared a bank might not be enough any more.

Nice touch, Snoopy.
I note that you have not taken issue (yet) with Hall's description of Heartland as "fast-growing".

[Snoopy]

I note that you have not taken issue (yet) with Hall's description of Heartland as "fast-growing".


'fast growing' in every sense is a comparative term. If you look at the Heartland FY2012 accounts in comparison with the FY2011 accounts, then yes they have grown. However in that time they absorbed PGG Wrightson finance. In comparing the size of Heartland, if you use the the sum total presence of "PGG Wrightson FY2011" + "Heartland FY2011" and compare that with "Heartland FY2012" (the apples with apples comparison IMO) then the collective "Heartland' is actually shrinking.

Of course I would argue that this is a good thing as it shores up Heartland's capital position. But to the faithful, pointing out that Heartland is not growing is heresy.

SNOOPY

[mouse]

To be fair I think the Heartland remark was a peripheral remark to the main thrust of the article, and that was how well the Oz banks have done for NZ shareholders.


Heartland have their niche in machinery and farm financing, but how many people on the street really see them as bank? They still look to me more like a finance company with a bank sticker plastered on top. Their credit rating is well below that of the big Aussie banks, although I would point out it would be unreasonable to expect anything else.

The point is Heartland is not too big to fail. I concede that from a management perspective, Heartland are making a good fist of things, so far. But even a good climber is still vulnerable to an avalanche of bad debt. Good luck to all Heartland investors. I may join you one day. But first I intend to wait for another snowmelt, and all should be revealed in the Full Year annual accounts in the second half of the year.

SNOOPY
Exactly, Heartland is a finance company with the added benefit of having some Reserve Bank supervision. Providing Heartland can stick to lending in areas where it has experience, then we should do well. Down here in Christchurch we have all sorts of heavy machinery breaking up the roads. Excellent business for Heartland. (With a branch in Sydenham).

[janner]

Full marks CJ.. Go to the top of the class..


NNnnnnooooooooooooooooo.

Lets not start this one up again. There goes another 2 pages on this thread about rules and discussions and not agreeing to disagree....

Full marks CJ.. Go to the top of the class..

[janner]

Ooops .. Pass the Bi-carb please..

[percy]

Ok - full marks for being a good sport! I disagree with your comments re Wheeler and granting the Reserve Bank status, but agree with your last two paragraphs, insofar we agree its a good company but is clearly not an ASB either.

Snoopy is /was and is still factually wrong ,about the granting of the bank licence,and how long Wheeler had been in the job.
Growth in earnings is more important than growth of loan book.
Back on line at Auckland airport.No internet access at Beachcomber Motel Kawakawa Bay.Did enjoy my book.

[iceman]

Percy I would just like to acknowledge you as one of the "other posters" I refer to in my post 1243 on the RYM thread. So after a good night of celebration with my daughters, we say thank you :t_up:

[percy]

Percy I would just like to acknowledge you as one of the "other posters" I refer to in my post 1243 on the RYM thread. So after a good night of celebration with my daughters, we say thank you :t_up:

Thank you Iceman.
I really enjoyed ready your post on Ryman thread.Like you I have learnt so much from Sauce and Sparky The Clown.I have also learnt from your excellent posts.
I think the advice Sparky gave you about the bach is good,and his concern about the values of shares at present,means we all should be very careful what if anything we buy.
So keeping a good amount of cash seems the prudent thing to do.

[K1W1G0LD]

Our friend(s) is(are) back dropping shares at the end of the day ... :)

Bollinger Bands are narrowing again and the next move is likely to be up ...

What say the TA'er? ... Top time?

Yes, the price is firming again and good to see someones buying..............another increase maybe ahead of Macquarie/Heartland do Percy was referring to.

[kizame]

Well, I am, and more so Percy....

:-)

I think this is a fine company. It would be very pleasing to see others appreciate it so.

Not quite a fine company yet,needs a steady trackrecord-and consistant runs on the board, but seems to be heading in the right direction.
RYM is a fine company.

[janner]

Not quite a fine company yet,needs a steady trackrecord-and consistant runs on the board, but seems to be heading in the right direction.
RYM is a fine company.

You have said a mouth full Kizame..

The price will advance in my opinion after the next financial report comes out.. Giving companies like Morningstar something to report on...

Disc... Well positioned .. As Percy would say..

[kizame]

You have said a mouth full Kizame..

The price will advance in my opinion after the next financial report comes out.. Giving companies like Morningstar something to report on...

Disc... Well positioned .. As Percy would say..

Yes am also well positioned and very happy with my investment,bought half my holding at 57c the other half was from PGC.Am hoping for a slow steady performance from here on in.But am not fanatical about this Co. as some others are.

[percy]

Well, I am, and more so Percy....

:-)

I think this is a fine company. It would be very pleasing to see others appreciate it so.

Well Sparky we have had a movement.!!!! Moved from "well positioned" to "poised".
Thank you Macquaries Christchurch for putting on the Heartland presentation.
The presentation was given by Craig Stephen HNZ's CFO.Jeff Greenslade did not attend because of a family bereavement.
Heartland are finding their niche in New Zealand productive sector,small businesses,rural sector and households.Staying away from mortgage wars,yet working in with other banks.ie a bank finds they have too much exposure to a rural customer HNZ will take over the livestock loan,working with Kiwi bank on mortgages .
Will open more branches,Timaru,Invercargil,Central Christchurch and looking for a stronger presence in Auckland.Sorry Mouse not Sydenham at this stage.
As Sparky has pointed out they are looking at growing more profitable lending,rather than growing their lending book.More than enough Capital.In fact too much capital,so I take it we may see a share buy back or a capital return.I enjoyed the presentation.Questions I had were answered in the presentation.
.
The non-core property; We can expect an announcement by the end of the month.A sale offcourse would free up capital.

[janner]

.But am not fanatical about this Co. as some others are.

Do not think there are to many fanatics on HNZ if any kizame..

Fanatics appear to not last long.. What ever happened to lazylarry ??

I really do hope that he proves us all wrong in the end ..

Most if not all on here have one goal, and are willing to suffer the slings and arrows of ridicule to attain that gaol..

Giving their good reasons and taking others good reasoning..

[SCOTTY]

Well Sparky we have had a movement.!!!! Moved from "well positioned" to "poised".
Thank you Macquaries Christchurch for putting on the Heartland presentation.
The presentation was given by Craig Stephen HNZ's CFO.Jeff Greenslade did not attend because of a family bereavement.
Heartland are finding their niche in New Zealand productive sector,small businesses,rural sector and households.Staying away from mortgage wars,yet working in with other banks.ie a bank finds they have too much exposure to a rural customer HNZ will take over the livestock loan,working with Kiwi bank on mortgages .
Will open more branches,Timaru,Invercargil,Central Christchurch and looking for a stronger presence in Auckland.Sorry Mouse not Sydenham at this stage.
As Sparky has pointed out they are looking at growing more profitable lending,rather than growing their lending book.More than enough Capital.In fact too much capital,so I take it we may see a share buy back or a capital return.I enjoyed the presentation.Questions I had were answered in the presentation.
.
The non-core property; We can expect an announcement by the end of the month.A sale offcourse would free up capital.

A great report Percy. Thanks very much, I really appreciate you shareing this with us.

Cheers

[janner]

With SCOTTY's .. Response to Percy.. An " almost " Fanatic ( with good reason ) on HNZ.. I rest my case m'Lord..

[iceman]

With SCOTTY's .. Response to Percy.. An " almost " Fanatic ( with good reason ) on HNZ.. I rest my case m'Lord..

I couldn't put it better myself ! Thanks from another "fanatic" Percy :)

[K1W1G0LD]

Yes thanks for the report Percy , thats good stuff.

[Balance]

'fast growing' in every sense is a comparative term. If you look at the Heartland FY2012 accounts in comparison with the FY2011 accounts, then yes they have grown. However in that time they absorbed PGG Wrightson finance. In comparing the size of Heartland, if you use the the sum total presence of "PGG Wrightson FY2011" + "Heartland FY2011" and compare that with "Heartland FY2012" (the apples with apples comparison IMO) then the collective "Heartland' is actually shrinking.

Of course I would argue that this is a good thing as it shores up Heartland's capital position. But to the faithful, pointing out that Heartland is not growing is heresy.

SNOOPY

Snoopy, allow me to summarize the opinions of those who are in HNZ :

1. Growth for growth's sake is a bit like drinking for the sake of getting drunk - nothing can come good from it, save for a sore head or a busted liver years later. Just as bad as buying stuff non-stop just because it is on sale.

2. HNZ is doing it the right way - grow profitably and be patient. That is the correct strategy.

3. Capital is not an issue when you are profitable and demonstrate disciplined and profitable growth. There is unlimited capital available out there for banks when they show they are well managed and disciplined.

South Canterbury Finance and the other finance companies provide ample proof that growth (and size) are not everything.

If you go back far enough, the BNZ blew itself up twice growing for growth's sake - and BNZ had unlimited access to capital back in those days.

As has been written before, you are missing the big picture, Snoopy, by nitpicking on numbers.

HNZ is on the move and there's plenty more potential ahead. :D :D :D

[percy]

HNZ is on the move and there's plenty more potential ahead. :D :D :D

I think we will look back in a year's time and realise what an understatement that is.!!!!

[Balance]

I think we will look back in a year's time and realise what an understatement that is.!!!!

Snoopy will still be looking at reasons why HNZ should not be granted a bank license?

:D :D :D

[Balance]

George Kerr practically gifted his shares to everyone who bothered to buy less than a year ago at 52 cents!

28 cents gain plus 3.5 cents dividend = 60% gain.

Who says Georgie Porgie is not a nice guy?

[Under Surveillance]

More than enough Capital.In fact too much capital,so I take it we may see a share buy back or a capital return.

Thanks for the report, percy. The extract above makes me wonder why they recently instituted a dividend reinvestment plan.

[percy]

Thanks for the report, percy. The extract above makes me wonder why they recently instituted a dividend reinvestment plan.

I don't know.I guess because so many NZ shareholders ask for one.
I was at a Cavotec meeting, and noticed the chairman was puzzled by shareholders request for a dividend reinvestment plan.Maybe it's a NZ thing.!!

[iceman]

Thanks for the report, percy. The extract above makes me wonder why they recently instituted a dividend reinvestment plan.

I was thinking exactly the same, especially as there is no discount to reward current shareholders ! But I've signed up to the DRP anyway :mellow:

[CJ]

I was thinking exactly the same, especially as there is no discount to reward current shareholders ! But I've signed up to the DRP anyway :mellow:Same. BUt only while I consider it is selling at a discount to true value (~$1). After that, they will need to offer a discount or pay me cash.

[Arbitrage]

Well CJ you will be pleased to see the price is touching 80c this morning so it is heading in the right direction. Didn't they say that a discount may be offered as a part of the scheme?

[CJ]

Well CJ you will be pleased to see the price is touching 80c this morning so it is heading in the right direction. Didn't they say that a discount may be offered as a part of the scheme?Discount of no more than 5% from memory but non at this stage.

I assume a discount would only be offered if they need to retain cash so need to incentivise shareholders to sign up for DRP.

[JohnnyTheHorse]

I'm thinking about doing a trade here. Only thing holding me back right now is the slight lack of depth on the buyer side. Anyone serious traders have any thoughts?

[percy]

Note to self ... Shut up until you've bought!

That has to be the quote of the year.!!!!! lol.

[Minerbarejet]

Buy at 80 ;)
Way ahead of you moosie - first off the block- shook a few sellers out of their trees whoever took the big bite.:t_up:

[JohnnyTheHorse]

Buy at 80 ;)

Hmm, not quite convinced of a breakout yet. That could change very soon though!

[Balance]

Hmm, not quite convinced of a breakout yet. That could change very soon though!

Must be a breakout because Snoopy has gone deadly quiet?

Better start loading up on PGW as well while he is busy keeping the sp down for you all to buy in? :D

[Snoopy]

Snoopy, allow me to summarize the opinions of those who are in HNZ:

1. Growth for growth's sake is a bit like drinking for the sake of getting drunk - nothing can come good from it, save for a sore head or a busted liver years later. Just as bad as buying stuff non-stop just because it is on sale.


Growth is about leveraging the real estate and the people, and about minimizing the average cost of each transaction. Having said that I am not concerned that Heartland did not grow their revenues year on year. IMO getting the chaff dealt with is the more important focus for management.



2. HNZ is doing it the right way - grow profitably and be patient. That is the correct strategy.


Agreed.



3. Capital is not an issue when you are profitable and demonstrate disciplined and profitable growth. There is unlimited capital available out there for banks when they show they are well managed and disciplined.

South Canterbury Finance and the other finance companies provide ample proof that growth (and size) are not everything.


I would take a different lesson from the South Canterbury Finance collapse. Even large lenders can face a capital crunch, and the market conditions that claimed South Canterbury finance have not moved on that much IMO. Pre GFC, there were plenty of finance companies that appeared highly profitable, yet shareholders still lost all of their money.

I would go as far as to say that for any finance outfit outside the big six banks, profit is largely irrelevant for the survival of the company. I don't care what profit HNZ makes or is projected to make. Until those bad loans are sorted out, HNZ is just too great a risk for me, although I accept others have a different risk reward balance. All I know is that I didn't lose any money in the finance company collapses (because I was out of that part of the market) and I don't intend to lose any money in finance companies (even those with bank stickers all over them) going forwards either.



As has been written before, you are missing the big picture, Snoopy, by nitpicking on numbers.


What you call nitpicking, I call preserving capital.



HNZ is on the move and there's plenty more potential ahead.


Agreed. There is also plenty of downside risk from principally property loans going bad. I realise that my escaping the 'bad' risk I also escape the 'good' risk. But that is the investment path I choose to take.

SNOOPY

[Snoopy]

my concern with Heartland is that a good number of those very lending people ex-SCF jumped across to HNZ, taking their client loans with them.


Putting your head out of the trench on this thread requires you to wear a helmet Xerof! At least someone else on this thread recognises the risks in HNZ though. I would hope that those SCF staff who have jumped to Heartland have learned their lessons. But given what has happened in the whole finance company sector, I see it as prudent to wait for more proof of this.

Not saying HNZ is a bad investment. Have never said that. One day I see myself on the share register. But not just yet....

SNOOPY

PS See you have pulled the post I quoted from already! It is tough in the trenches!

[Balance]

Putting your head out of the trench on this thread requires you to wear a helmet Xerof! At least someone else on this thread recognises the risks in HNZ though. I would hope that those SCF staff who have jumped to Heartland have learned their lessons. But given what has happened in the whole finance company sector, I see it as prudent to wait for more proof of this.

Not saying HNZ is a bad investment. Have never said that. One day I see myself on the share register. But not just yet....

SNOOPY

PS See you have pulled the post I quoted from already! It is tough in the trenches!

You have only missed out on 60% so far buying from George Kerr.

Buying now? I wouldn't buy now if I were you as your risk/reward equation getting in at this level is not same as getting in at 52 cents.

To each their own. :D

[Xerof]

Hehe, yeah, I thought better of it Snoopdog, but you've outed part of my longer post, preserved for ever:sleep:

[Balance]

Yes. Some were also needlessly dwelling on risks too, like insisting that a banking license was up to three years away. Yet a quick email to the Reserve Bank or Heartland could have provided better information. Just saying....

LOL - reminds me of the guy who was so busy reading his messages on his iPhone and texting he walked into a lamp post on Queen St. Ouch!

[Xerof]

To be fair Sparky, (and it was before your time here), I was very bearish towards both PGC and HNZ when Kerr had his hand on the till(er). Not many listened....60 to 25, 88 to 35 and now back to 80

I am then on record endorsing Balances view that once Kerr had been forced out, "the fog over HNZ has lifted", however, personally, I would not be buying HNZ.

good on all those who did buy under 55.

[percy]

To be fair Sparky, (and it was before your time here), I was very bearish towards both PGC and HNZ when Kerr had his hand on the till(er). Not many listened....60 to 25, 88 to 35 and now back to 80

I am then on record endorsing Balances view that once Kerr had been forced out, "the fog over HNZ has lifted", however, personally, I would not be buying HNZ.

good on all those who did buy under 55.

I have always found your posts very constructive.Usually made me think,and I have always learnt from them.You always have your facts right.
I am very keen to see Heartland expand in Timaru.
Crops,dairying,farming,service industries make up the very strong economy of South Canterbury.
I therefore see it as the ideal place for Heartland to expand.
I maybe wrong, but I think it was Alan Hubbard's lending outside South Canterbury area that was the cause of the defaults.

[Xerof]

Yep, there is a HUGE opportunity for someone to fill the old 'finance' company void left by all the failed entities, but the funding models need to change. Mum and Dad won't be back to the mezzanine finance sector in any hurry, and prime lenders terms would be inhospitable. Notice all the 'standby facilities' provided by major banks have largely evaporated.

this I believe is the reason we haven't seen major expansions by the likes of HNZ et al since the implosion; one they are gunshy; two, raising funds is not all that easy for them, and three, noone is prepared to borrow much on the 'new' terms (first mort, gsa, personal guarantee)

agree re Hubbard lending, I understand that virtually all of the new money raised under the Crown guarantee basically went straight down the gurgler to property development shysters, and of course to various related parties

[Balance]

Yep, there is a HUGE opportunity for someone to fill the old 'finance' company void left by all the failed entities, but the funding models need to change. Mum and Dad won't be back to the mezzanine finance sector in any hurry, and prime lenders terms would be inhospitable. Notice all the 'standby facilities' provided by major banks have largely evaporated.

this I believe is the reason we haven't seen major expansions by the likes of HNZ et al since the implosion; one they are gunshy; two, raising funds is not all that easy for them, and three, noone is prepared to borrow much on the 'new' terms (first mort, gsa, personal guarantee)

agree re Hubbard lending, I understand that virtually all of the new money raised under the Crown guarantee basically went straight down the gurgler to property development shysters, and of course to various related parties

Hubbard used SCF to feed his ego.

He was dishing out money like lollies at a kiddies' party. And he was enjoying the attention.

Others used Hubbard to feed their speculative activities.

The Crown was dumb enough to not see what kind of people were using their Crown guarantee.

[bonne vie]

Disc - I inherited shares via PGC, sold them a year or so go and bought back in this year with the intention to monitor closely/hold 2 - 3 years. Yes- feeling this way I probably should have bought further safer shares like RYM, SUM. But NZ needs lenders like HNZ and I want it to succeed.

When I sold it was because of being uncomfortable with the riskd involved with the type of lending HNZ is involved with and high level of experience/systems required to monitor the payment risk of those types of lending. Drawing from my experience/observations while working in maintream banks, a finance company and a factoring company, IMHO cashflow lending (against security of the assets NOT landed property) and invoice discounting require special skill sets to assess the initial facility application and very stringent/regular review processes to monitor the ongoing risk of the customer and in the case of Invoice Discounting the customer's debtor.

Why am I concerned that Heartland have not got the right people/processes in place? or for that matter any new "Finance Company" type of Bank:
1)Lack first mortgage security - there is usually no First Mortgage over property to fall back on if the lender gets it wrong
2) Lack of experienced lenders in NZ - In the last 10 years or so many New Rural/Relationship Manager's have not had come through ranks nor had the benefit of being an assistant to an experienced lender, instead they may have the degree, may have been an accountant or a great marketeer/networker. Within 1- 2 months (sometimes less) they start in the role face to face with the customer and their professional team (solicitor, accountant and do) while they are still coming to grips with Bank's policies, systems and a comprehensive understanding of Balance Sheets & Accounts, budgets and forecast cashflows. Vital warning flags which become second nature with experience are missed and they are too busy trying to keep on top of things to invest in time building up the skills.
3) Time constraints to undertake meaningful monitoring due to demand to grow the book - Regular monitoring/reviewing including customer visits and asking the right questions is vital - things can deterioate very quickly and can be masked e.g. bank account may be operating within arrangement but in fact it is being assisted by not paying creditors, contras, family loans etc rather than trading income
4) Main transactional account held at other bank -The first mortgagee lender often requires the main trading account to be held with them - this takes away the finance companies ability to review transactions to possibly pick up anomalies

I am not saying Heartland has not covered off all these risks but, again IMHO, the successful asset lenders/factoring companies which have been around for years and rode out the GFC concerntrate on a very narrow range of products with strict monitoring systems in place. They do not try to be a full service financial institution.

I hope/want HNZ to succeed, I believe very strong governance will be required and the higher interest/fees charged are set at a level to
fund the time required to monitor the loan book in both the good and bad times. It is often only in bad times that it becomes evident that monitoring/adherence to policies had become lax in the good times when the risks could have been mitigated earlier and more options are available to bank and customer.

[percy]

Bonne vie.
You make valid points.
Speaking with Craig Stephen I learnt a lot.He said they {Marac} had less trouble with motor vehicle finance than HNZ had with mortgages on property.He said borrowers needed their car to get to work.This appeared to be more important than their house.[surprised me]
HNZ are not that keen to grow their book in areas they donot understand.Although they are a full financial institution I think they are concentrating very much on areas where they have experience.Lending on livestock would need careful monitoring.So I can't see many banks being in this space,so HNZ should do well.
New areas.At the agm Jeff Greenslade spoke of medical and education [school fees] as new areas they were looking at.Craig Stephen said they were still researching these areas.
HNZ like all lenders will have their defaults and problems,however I feel HNZ are being very careful in the direction they go.
Not "putting it on the house" means HNZ can charge more,however the risk for HNZ is as you point out, a great deal more for HNZ.
Factoring is a part of the market I did not ask about.
Marac lost PGC shareholders' funds through lending in an area they did not understand.[property development].
So I would think the lesson learnt is very much in HNZ's mind.

[Snoopy]

Disc - I inherited shares via PGC,


Many HNZ shareholders are from PGC. The split gave the perception that PGC was the high risk high return deal making arm, while Heartland became the relatively safe conservative banking arm.



Why am I concerned that Heartland have not got the right people/processes in place? or for that matter any new "Finance Company" type of Bank:
<snip>
2) Lack of experienced lenders in NZ - In the last 10 years or so many New Rural/Relationship Manager's have not had come through ranks nor had the benefit of being an assistant to an experienced lender, instead they may have the degree, may have been an accountant or a great marketeer/networker. Within 1- 2 months (sometimes less) they start in the role face to face with the customer and their professional team (solicitor, accountant and do) while they are still coming to grips with Bank's policies, systems and a comprehensive understanding of Balance Sheets & Accounts, budgets and forecast cashflows. Vital warning flags which become second nature with experience are missed and they are too busy trying to keep on top of things to invest in time building up the skills.
<snip>


This I believe is the most salient point. Neither Technical Analysis (looking at share price charts) , nor Fundamental Analysis (reading the annual report) will tell you if the staff processing the loans are up to it. And the share price going up a few cents, or the announcement of increased profits are not measures of staff competence either. All you can do is look for pointers, like the change in risk classification of some loans which is given in the annual report (but not the half year report).

One other thing you can do is look at the senior company management and see if there has been any turnover in senior management positions. Because sometimes that turnover can be reflected in unreported lower levels of management changes as well.



I am not saying Heartland has not covered off all these risks but, again IMHO, the successful asset lenders/factoring companies which have been around for years and rode out the GFC concentrate on a very narrow range of products with strict monitoring systems in place. They do not try to be a full service financial institution.


IMO to perform these functions, Heartland does not have to be a 'bank'.



I hope/want HNZ to succeed,


I do too. And I think when the next rights issue comes up, that might be the time to invest and help them.

SNOOPY

[percy]

And I think when the next rights issue comes up, that might be the time to invest and help them.

SNOOPY
Snoopy.
I have a $100 that says HNZ will have a share buy back,or return of capital before they have a rights issue.{Unless they buy FPF}.

[mouse]

It seems Coop Bank is in trouble. But not our one.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10049762/Co-op-rules-out-state-aid-as-boss-quits-amid-capital-fears.html
The point being, that having Reserve Bank supervision is worth quite a bit. Even if Heartland is a finance company.
And Percy, no return of capital is anywhere on the horizon. Heartland needs the capital in these times.

[CJ]

Not what management told me. They are considering a share buyback, amongst other options, if they don't have a use for the money.Why is this. My understanding is Kiwibank needs more capital to be able to grow - and they operating in areas (ie home loans) that require lower capital that what Heartland does (consumer finance etc).

Hvae they decided to stay niche and not grow or is their profitably sufficient because they dont operate in the extremely competitive home loan area that Kiwibank does.

And based on this, the DRiP they have offered is because that is what investors have asked for, not what the company needs (which is backed up by the fact no discount is being offered.)

[percy]

CJ.
Heartland have an agreement with Kiwi bank,where Heartland pass on home mortgages to them.[ I expect they collect a finders fee]
They see ample growth in the areas they want to be in.Home loans is not one of them.
That is not to say they willn't do home loans.
Your statement about them staying niche is right.

[CJ]

Heartland have an agreement with Kiwi bank,where Heartland pass on home mortgages to them.[ I expect they collect a finders fee]
They see ample growth in the areas they want to be in.Home loans is not one of them.
That is not to say they willn't do home loans.
Your statement about them staying niche is right.Appreciate that Percy. My point was they are niche in an area that needs more capital than home loans. Is it more profitable on a ROE basis? Some are saying they need more capital, some say they have far to much.

[percy]

Appreciate that Percy. My point was they are niche in an area that needs more capital than home loans. Is it more profitable on a ROE basis? Some are saying they need more capital, some say they have far to much.

On this HNZ thread there are two views.
1] HNZ will need a cash issue to grow.HNZ does not have enough capital.HNZ are not in a position to pay a dividend.Need more capital because they are not into home loans.Need dividend reinvestment to preserve capital.
2] Two posters [sparky and me] who have spoken to HNZ's CFO Craig Stephen.We both have reported that HNZ have TOO much capital,and that HNZ are looking to grow their ROE, not their loan book.
You have a choice as to which view you consider is correct.

[forest]

On this HNZ thread there are two views.
1] HNZ will need a cash issue to grow.HNZ does not have enough capital.HNZ are not in a position to pay a dividend.Need more capital because they are not into home loans.Need dividend reinvestment to preserve capital.
2] Two posters [sparky and me] who have spoken to HNZ's CFO Craig Stephen.We both have reported that HNZ have TOO much capital,and that HNZ are looking to grow their ROE, not their loan book.
You have a choice as to which view you consider is correct.

As Percey says there are 2 views, but logic would favour one of those views if one remembers that HNZ committed itself to regular dividends and also paid a special dividend last year, unless one thinks HNZ board is totally stupid.

disclosure, I have it in the ST contest and

[Snoopy]

As Percy says there are 2 views, but logic would favour one of those views if one remembers that HNZ committed itself to regular dividends and also paid a special dividend last year, unless one thinks HNZ board is totally stupid.


Forest , the shareholders who got their HNZ shares via PGC, were sold the idea that PGC was the deal making risk taking arm going forwards, and HNZ was the conservative soon to be bank, paying good dividends. At the end of the day HNZ need to pay dividends to keep their founding shareholder base happy, IMO.

SNOOPY

[Snow Leopard]

The sooner HNZ launch their capital raising to buy back shares and pay a special dividend the sooner everybody will be right

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

[percy]

The sooner HNZ launch their capital raising to buy back shares and pay a special dividend the sooner everybody will be right

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

Yeah Right.!!!!
Please continue your story telling on Serko thread,we are all waiting for the "good oil." lol.

[winner69]

One way of increasing ROE is increasing leverage and making more money on the same equity

[percy]

One way of increasing ROE is increasing leverage and making more money on the same equity

Another is doing a share buy back and having fewer shares.

[percy]

Another is doing a share buy back and having fewer shares.

Yet another is having a capital return.

[winner69]

Sounds like they feel that that much touted equity ratio is far too high .....sorry percy

[percy]

Sounds like they feel that that much touted equity ratio is far too high .....sorry percy

I think EBO referred to it as "lazy capital" ,not required in the business, so returned it to shareholders,via a special dividend.From memory non taxable as it was a return of capital .
HNZ saying the same thing.
The next few weeks could be very interesting, should you consider the announcement of HNZ's decision on non-core property, and talk of being over capitalized be connected.

[janner]

The sooner HNZ launch their capital raising to buy back shares and pay a special dividend the sooner everybody will be right

Best Wishes
Paper Tiger

With every one being right !!.. The SP will rise.. Brilliant PT.. Investors happy.. Bernie Madoff would be proud of you..

[mouse]

Heartland is lending in the more difficult capital areas. Where its machinery, vehicles etc, not property. MARAC went broke only a few years back, due to insufficient capital. The world economies are in melt-down. Heartland needs to keep its capital base intact, ready for uncertain times. I am trying to be realistic, plus I put cash into Heartland at their cash call only a few months ago. From memory at 52 cents a share. Why should they buy-back at 80 cents a share now?

[winner69]

Oh mouse - you in big trouble now making those sort of assumptions ... WW3 will now break out

Mouse they didn't go broke .... just needed a bit of financial engineering and one of the reasons why PGC needed a huge cpaital rqaising .... but not broke

You should know better than to use words like 'broke' on this thread

Percy wull remind you thay learnt their lesson

[GRIFFIN]

I notice HNZ are pushing hard towards the rural sector with loans to farmers for livestock purchases which farmers will be spending money on to re stock post drought. Should work well for them.

[mouse]

Marac went broke? When did that happen? Can you provide a link to that please?

Certainly, the link is to my wallet!

[percy]

I notice HNZ are pushing hard towards the rural sector with loans to farmers for livestock purchases which farmers will be spending money on to re stock post drought. Should work well for them.

They are expecting to pick up a lot of business as farmers restock.
This years's drought was different from previous ones as it was over the whole country.Usually it is on one side of the country,which means the other side is borrowing to buy stock.

[Xerof]

There have been two MARAC finance companies in recent history, just like there were two Lombards

do not confuse the two under each name, (which of course was the direct intent of each of the later entities, in an effort to ride on prior reputations)

just saying......

[mouse]

That's unfortunate for you, but while Marac and it's former parent PGC may have struggled during the GFC (like many companies good and bad), they did not go broke.

Certainly, not under Heartland's tenure.
But my experience tells me that Heartland needs to hang onto capital. Against difficult times. Once it has earned profit then that may be the time to return capital. Otherwise my wallet could become a sieve.

[kizame]

But my experience tells me that Heartland needs to hang onto capital. Against difficult times. Once it has earned profit then that may be the time to return capital. Otherwise my wallet could become a sieve.

Once it has earned profit?
I was under the impression it is quite profitable.

[mouse]

Kizame is right. They made $14.9m in NPAT (adjusted), or 4c a share. Expectations are for around $22.9m in adjusted NPAT or 5.9c a share in earnings, according to ForBarr.
Of course, but they have to keep making a profit. And paying taxes on the profit. Which demonstrates, at least to me, that it is not a profit due to clever accounting, but profit due to sound business. Plus paying dividends on the profit. Dividends so far have been pretty good. Keep them coming please. Heartland needs a track record and they are establishing that very nicely too.

[QOH]

Aren't they going to have to come up with $105 million to pay back the MARAC 010 bonds this July?
Have no idea if that is a positive or negative for the company, they are paying 10.5% interest rate.

[percy]

And Percy 'the fanatic" is forecasting over $30mil for year ended 30/6/2014.

[kizame]

And Percy 'the fanatic" is forecasting over $30mil for year ended 30/6/2014.

Haha I have no quarms with Percy the fanatic,if it wasn't for you being "fanatical" I wouldn't be so well informed on HNZ, thankyou.

Gracias amigo.

[iceman]

So to clarify:

A subsidiary of Heartland went broke, except it didn't.
Heartland need to start making profits, and keep making the profits they are already making.
Heartland also need a track record, but are establishing one.

Ok, I'm cool with that. :-)

Phew, thanks for this summary STC. Have been following this thread for a long time but thought I was losing it this afternoon. I was very happy with Paper Tigers idea of a cash call to fund a buy back, which is a win win situation, and then all this confusion this afternoon !

[Grimy]

Aren't they going to have to come up with $105 million to pay back the MARAC 010 bonds this July?
Have no idea if that is a positive or negative for the company, they are paying 10.5% interest rate.
Yes, I'm going to miss that nice little regular payment.....

[percy]

Aren't they going to have to come up with $105 million to pay back the MARAC 010 bonds this July?
Have no idea if that is a positive or negative for the company, they are paying 10.5% interest rate.

With HNZ now paying between 3 and 5% for deposits, there appears to be a number of avenues available to save a lot of money by replacing this expensive funding.
Wish I had asked about it.!!!

[CJ]

While they aren't a bank in the traditional sense (ie home loans), the cost of funds is one of the great benefits they get from being a registered bank.

[Balance]

While they aren't a bank in the traditional sense (ie home loans), the cost of funds is one of the great benefits they get from being a registered bank.

Not something that Snoopy would ever recognize?

Too concerned with why the numbers show that HNZ should not be granted a bank license.

[mouse]

While they aren't a bank in the traditional sense (ie home loans), the cost of funds is one of the great benefits they get from being a registered bank.

Plus they get Reserve Bank Supervision. Government is not happy at the thought of another South Canty Finance bale-out.
The $105 million debt. Obviously this is long term debt, which is used to balance the shorter term retail deposits of a couple of years. I expect the $100 million to be rolled over. What about giving the shareholders an option to invest in some of the $100 million?

[iceman]

Aren't they going to have to come up with $105 million to pay back the MARAC 010 bonds this July?
Have no idea if that is a positive or negative for the company, they are paying 10.5% interest rate.

Have been reading all recent posts. QQH has made a very valid point here, a point I had somewhat underestimated (maybe just my oversight). This is one of my more substantial holdings and I am happy with it, but this debt QQH talks about should be repaid in full before any dividends are paid. I like dividends but only if the funds can not be put to better use by the Co. They also need to be made from sustainable profits/cashflow.
I would like HNZ to be conservative and honest. That's the reason I have invested quite heavily in HNZ. Keep it up HNZ but please NO surprises.

[CJ]

Have been reading all recent posts. QQH has made a very valid point here, a point I had somewhat underestimated (maybe just my oversight). This is one of my more substantial holdings and I am happy with it, but this debt QQH talks about should be repaid in full before any dividends are paid. I like dividends but only if the funds can not be put to better use by the Co. They also need to be made from sustainable profits/cashflow.
I would like HNZ to be conservative and honest. That's the reason I have invested quite heavily in HNZ. Keep it up HNZ but please NO surprises.Lets just wait and see what they replace it with. If it is substantially lower than 10.5%, then no problems with them continuing to pay dividends.

[percy]

Have been reading all recent posts. QQH has made a very valid point here, a point I had somewhat underestimated (maybe just my oversight). This is one of my more substantial holdings and I am happy with it, but this debt QQH talks about should be repaid in full before any dividends are paid. I like dividends but only if the funds can not be put to better use by the Co. They also need to be made from sustainable profits/cashflow.
I would like HNZ to be conservative and honest. That's the reason I have invested quite heavily in HNZ. Keep it up HNZ but please NO surprises.

They are a form of borrowing.They were taken out when things were not going to well,so they had to pay big interest.
As CJ posted lets just wait and see what/how they replace it.There was talk on Chris Lee site that HNZ would come to the market for another bond issue.
So over the next few weeks we can look forward to news on Marac bonds and more importantly the non-core property holding.
I expect both announcements will be very positive for shareholders.
Remember HNZ are now paying between 3 and 5% for deposits.Sparky covered this in his post No.1756 at the top of this page.

[CJ]

Infratil just got some bonds away at 6.85%. Heartland should be able to do cheaper than this.

[winner69]

Govt going to set up micobanks, great idea even though lending to the needy intuitively doesn't make sense. However there is a market and loan sharks and microbanks in other counties have low default rates. There must be a need

I reckon hnz and coop should lead the way. Put aside 1% of assets into mico lending, small loans minimal interest

Some really good social stuff for a nz bank ....make shareholders warm and fuzzy in doing good work.

Altruism in action I reckon, banks have a social responsibility too

[winner69]

I email jeff today and the coop guy as well with that idea

[percy]

Govt going to set up micobanks, great idea even though lending to the needy intuitively doesn't make sense. However there is a market and loan sharks and microbanks in other counties have low default rates. There must be a need

I reckon hnz and coop should lead the way. Put aside 1% of assets into mico lending, small loans minimal interest

Some really good social stuff for a nz bank ....make shareholders warm and fuzzy in doing good work.

Altruism in action I reckon, banks have a social responsibility too

Yes it would be pleasing to see Coop and Heartland help in this area.
An article I read sometime ago confirmed what you said about low defaults,but what was the big surprise [ to me] was the results achieved with size of loans being rather small.

[Snoopy]

CJ wrote:
"While they aren't a bank in the traditional sense (ie home loans), the cost of funds is one of the great benefits they get from being a registered bank."

Not something that Snoopy would ever recognize?

Too concerned with why the numbers show that HNZ should not be granted a bank license.


The problem is did a bank licence improve Heartland's credit rating? The answer appears to be no. So it looks like the cost of funds is not related to becoming a bank!

SNOOPY

[percy]

The problem is did a bank licence improve Heartland's credit rating? The answer appears to be no. So it looks like the cost of funds is not related to becoming a bank!

SNOOPY

Snoopy your record of being 100% wrong remains intact.
HNZ has gone from paying 130 basic points above what "the Aussie banks"pay to 30 basic points.
Think how much they are saving on nearly 2bil.!!! Bit dollars.!! Bank Licence proving it's worth.

[CJ]

The problem is did a bank licence improve Heartland's credit rating? The answer appears to be no. So it looks like the cost of funds is not related to becoming a bank!I accept that it may be too early to tell but I think long term it should for two reasons. Having 'Bank' in their name will open them up to new markets (ie. large funds which can loan to banks but not finance companies) and will also give them more credibility in the NZ market with retail investors (ie. those stung by finance companies but still wanting term deposits etc).

I did see something this morning(on Twitter I think) that someone was thinking of dropping Heartlands credit rating. I was rushing to the gym so didn't open the link to see if it was a real threat.

[percy]

[.

I did see something this morning(on Twitter I think) that someone was thinking of dropping Heartlands credit rating. I was rushing to the gym so didn't open the link to see if it was a real threat.[/QUOTE]

That would be Snoopy on twotter.!!! lol.

[andysh]

http://www.interest.co.nz/news/64508/standard-and-poors-warns-it-may-cut-credit-ratings-tsb-co-op-bank-heartland-bank-and-5-cr is the article on the downgrade.

[luigi]

http://www.interest.co.nz/news/64508/standard-and-poors-warns-it-may-cut-credit-ratings-tsb-co-op-bank-heartland-bank-and-5-cr

" However, The Co-operative Bank and Heartland Bank are already at the lowest rung of the investment grade ladder with BBB minus ratings. The Reserve Bank has previously said when granting bank licenses that it preferred an institution to have an investment grade rating. "

"We may lower the ratings on the eight New Zealand banks that are on negative outlook by one-to-two-notches within the next two years if economic vulnerabilities worsen," S&P said.

[CJ]

That would be Snoopy on twotter.!!! lol.


Trust only your official sources ;)I try not to follow trollers.

Andysh has provided the relevant link.

[andysh]

A lot of the talk in the article is about "increasing risk that a sharp correction in property prices".

As has been discussed in the thread, this is something that HNZ wants to get out of, so on overall I am not to concerned at all. Do realise that a correction will have a flow on effect to the rest of the market however (farmer having to sell / repay some of the mortgage on the house, delays payments on the machinery etc.).

Disc: Hold.

[Xerof]

HNZ has gone from paying 130 basic points above what "the Aussie banks"pay to 30 basic points.

percy, this may well be the case, but I wouldn't be shouting that from the rooftops. You forget that a lot of loan facilities are based on a margin over cost of funds, and borrowers will also be renegotiating borrowing costs lower to get their share of the margin improvement HNZ has been gaining. It's never a one way street. Stephens won't readily admit this unless directly asked.

I guess the next set of results will show how much margin improvement is captured, but to say it's 1% on 2 billion is a brave call

BTW, the correct term is "basis points"

[Xerof]

The article is inferring that a downgrade would leave the banking license in peril. I'm not sure that would be automatic. After all, it was granted in the knowledge that they were on the lowest rung.

I think the RBNZ would make their own minds up, and not 'rely' on rating agencies to determine the fate of a banking license

Keep calm and carry on chaps

[mouse]

The article is inferring that a downgrade would leave the banking license in peril. I'm not sure that would be automatic. After all, it was granted in the knowledge that they were on the lowest rung.

I think the RBNZ would make their own minds up, and not 'rely' on rating agencies to determine the fate of a banking license

Keep calm and carry on chaps

The point being that return of capital to shareholders is not on the agenda due to the threat of a downgrade. This report could affect the share price, but that only provides more buying opportunities. The main part of the report, which has not had much comment, is that the rest of the NZ banking system escapes a downgrade because of the 'support' from its various owners. We all know that 'support' can easily vaporise in trying situations. Heartland seems to be adequately financed, but its long term loan interest rate could go up a notch or two. Steady as she goes. And dont sell!

[percy]

percy, this may well be the case, but I wouldn't be shouting that from the rooftops. You forget that a lot of loan facilities are based on a margin over cost of funds, and borrowers will also be renegotiating borrowing costs lower to get their share of the margin improvement HNZ has been gaining. It's never a one way street. Stephens won't readily admit this unless directly asked.

I guess the next set of results will show how much margin improvement is captured, but to say it's 1% on 2 billion is a brave call

BTW, the correct term is "basis points"

Thank you.I have poor hearing.
Yes, I take it banks and finance companies can/do enjoy better margins when interest rates are higher.

[CJ]

The main part of the report, which has not had much comment, is that the rest of the NZ banking system escapes a downgrade because of the 'support' from its various owners. We all know that 'support' can easily vaporise in trying situations. For this reason, I think the RBNZ is trying to get them to hold more capital in NZ, so they cant just cast adrift without a big financial cost.

[percy]

The article is inferring that a downgrade would leave the banking license in peril. I'm not sure that would be automatic. After all, it was granted in the knowledge that they were on the lowest rung.

I think the RBNZ would make their own minds up, and not 'rely' on rating agencies to determine the fate of a banking license

Keep calm and carry on chaps

Having worked "with" the RBNZ to gain a banking licence I am sure Heartland will continue to work with RBNZ.
Staying away from housing and concentrating on the productive/service/rural sectors will work to better NZ, and HNZ's shareholders in turn.
Strong depositor base will work in HNZ favour.
The strong NZ dollar means the rest of the world thinks NZ Inc is soundly based.

[percy]

Heartland has just issued the following email

Thanks for posting that Sparky.

[False Profit]

Are we looking at a major correction considering the 24 month period mentioned or a spanner in the small banking works? HNZ looks very over priced today...

[000831]

when reaches 70, have a look at KMD, if wish it goes up again, with only one condition - index still climbs up

[percy]

Seriously? I might get a chance to buy more of this company even more cheaply?

Said I wouldn't buy any more.!!!!!
Changed my mind>!!!
Just adding a few more to the wife's holding,so not really adding to my holding.Yeah right.

[Master98]

quoted from NBR comments:

Anon, even if S&P are not specifically aware of the nuances of the banks' respective loan books, the flow-on effect of a property bust as seen in USA and certain European markets is clear. When a drop in value happens some existing loans become distressed and this flows to many sectors within the economy, resulting in wide spread damage. If people are struggling with housing debt then it's highly likely that car finance is also taking a hit.
Given the drought (I know it appears to be over), the state of the "stock" assets is probably below average so the farmers may not be expecting such a good return on those, and again that will have a negative effect. Those who are managing to keep milking (shearing, slaughtering) will get a higher return on their product, but on average across the whole economy the revenue is down.

[percy]

Well thank you S&P ... :)

If HNZ time a capital raising at the right moment they'll be able to get through any meltdown no problem. Maybe we'll see it within 12 months?

I would think increasing profits would do the job.!!

[CJ]

S&P's ability to call a housing bubble is laughable.

Until we see a significant increase in supply in NZ (or a population decrease), then there will not be a significant correction.

[winner69]

No disaster .... price only back to what it was the day before Percy went to the Macquaries night last week

[janner]

Interesting to note the Yahoo Financial ( yes I read many sites ) headline..

" CORRECT Heartland among eight local banks put on notice over rising housing risk by S and P ".

Was that because HEARTLAND is now the Premier small bank ??

[percy]

No disaster .... price only back to what it was the day before Percy went to the Macquaries night last week

And I think that fairly sums it up.
I was very pleased with Heartland's reply.Thought it was very positive.Added to my wife's holding at 68cents today.A lot of "wingers" around today.Buyers disappearing,sellers disappearing.But after all said and done, there was more said than done.!!
Next announcement about the non-core property loans should be interesting,then we will await news of "repayment"/replacement of the expensive Marac bond.Then winner69 I expect you will report "onwards and upwards".!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[janner]

68c? I hope you mean 78c!

Percy seems to have the inside track on HNZ.. Maybe 68c is correct..

[percy]

78cents>!!!
Maybe 78cents is the new inside track?
Bit surprised the eager sellers came out at 77cents .

[iceman]

Talk about market over reaction. Nothing much has actually changed fundamentally for HNZ. I topped up a little today and sent away the envelopes with the DRP that I have been holding onto. I will be in the DRP while the SP remains under 90c but will consider pulling out of it if it goes above that, unless we get a discount.
If we reach Percy's 68c I will be buying up large, as long as the RBNZ new rules don't limit me mortgaging my house a bit more :confused:

[janner]

If we reach Percy's 68c I will be buying up large, as long as the RBNZ new rules don't limit me mortgaging my house a bit more :confused:

Don't add to your mortgage.. Just ask Wussell to print you a few more dollars..

[iceman]

Don't add to your mortgage.. Just ask Wussell to print you a few more dollars..

I don't think I am on his Xmas card list :crying:

[mouse]

An amusing situation. I was, am, hopelessly overstocked with Heartland. I reluctantly sold 5,000 or so at 77 cents to buy Mighty River. Put the $4,000 into that at $2.50. Then Heartland went to over 81 cents. Had I done the right thing? The fall today to 77 cents shows I did. The reason to sell Heartland was of course to diversify. I am nearly back to where I started before PGGWrightson and PyneGold hit rocky shores.

[percy]

An amusing situation. I was, am, hopelessly overstocked with Heartland. I reluctantly sold 5,000 or so at 77 cents to buy Mighty River. Put the $4,000 into that at $2.50. Then Heartland went to over 81 cents. Had I done the right thing? The fall today to 77 cents shows I did. The reason to sell Heartland was of course to diversify. I am nearly back to where I started before PGGWrightson and PyneGold hit rocky shores.

Sounds like money down the river to me,!!!!
lol.

[Master98]

I personally think downgrade bank rating is a major, I have to follow S&P advice, so cut my half holding sold at 80c , first 25k shares traded which 20k came from me.

[CJ]

S&P are just arse covering after stuffing up in the US. Very unlikely to be downgrading - I am looking to top up if it drops much lower.

[iceman]

Mouse it is amusing indeed. 10 days ago I posted on the RYM thread (post 1243) a small story about investing on behalf of my teenage daugthers. At that time (only 10 days ago), I said my daughters (and their Dad) had sold half of our RYM (since up 2%), all of our CEN (didn't want to but CEN fell out of my daughters "safe "investments after Norman-geddon, but since up 6%)). At the time of my post, my daugthers were suggesting we use RYM receipt to buy SUM, AIA, PGW and SAN. We did invest it 50/50 in SUM and SAN. Since then share prices have changed SUM (-10%), AIA (+5%), PGW (-8%) and SAN (+5%).
Our net change from these transactions, -2.5% and completely satisfied we have done the right thing long term.The future will prove us right, wrong or prudent !
I know I am not in the right thread for these comments but Mouse initiated a response. My apologies

[mouse]

Mouse it is amusing indeed. 10 days ago I posted on the RYM thread (post 1243) a small story about investing on behalf of my teenage daugthers. At that time (only 10 days ago), I said my daughters (and their Dad) had sold half of our RYM (since up 2%), all of our CEN (didn't want to but CEN fell out of my daughters "safe "investments after Norman-geddon, but since up 6%)). At the time of my post, my daugthers were suggesting we use RYM receipt to buy SUM, AIA, PGW and SAN. We did invest it 50/50 in SUM and SAN. Since then share prices have changed SUM (-10%), AIA (+5%), PGW (-8%) and SAN (+5%).
Our net change from these transactions, -2.5% and completely satisfied we have done the right thing long term.The future will prove us right, wrong or prudent !
I know I am not in the right thread for these comments but Mouse initiated a response. My apologies

Brilliant. We can only do what seems to be the right thing at the time. It being of course important to retain a sense of humour about it.

[janner]

S&P are just arse covering after stuffing up in the US. Very unlikely to be downgrading - I am looking to top up if it drops much lower.

Me too CJ.. Unfortunately .. Not much available.. Not willing to sell any of my happy to hold, holdings.. ce la vie !!..

[janner]

Did you read BOTH announcements ??..

S & P were talking about the Housing bubble..

HNZ have been at pains to notify that they are not into the housing market..

Yes an housing bubble burst will affect all Banks.. HNZ to a lessor extent .. IMHO..


I personally think downgrade bank rating is a major, I have to follow S&P advice, so cut my half holding sold at 80c , first 25k shares traded which 20k came from me.

[percy]

I think it time to reread HNZ's response kindly posted by Sparky The Clown post 1783.
1] S&P are already commenting on our improving business position post bank registration.
and finishing
e] and a strategy of competing in stable less contestable specialist markets [livestock,invoice finance,motor vehicle etc].

My own observation is the noise Aussie banks would make either if things turned down here,or further in Aussie.
"We had to take that tuff course of action to protect our shareholders.Our largest shareholders are Aussie pension funds."
Swann can't put up that NZ may have a budget surplus before them.Under arm by Bill English.

[janner]

Percy !!.. How dare you suggest that any one in NZ could bowl an underarm ??.

Even the Greens would not stoop that low..

[percy]

Percy !!.. How dare you suggest that any one in NZ could bowl an underarm ??.

Even the Greens would not stoop that low..

What was enjoyable was that Swan thought it was.!!!
Now back to how any Aussie bank would react to a down turn in NZ,or a further down turn in Aussie?

Squeel like a stuffed pig and put Aussie interests first.!!!
We would call it "doing a Swanie,"

[janner]

To which the Aussies would be singing..

How I love ya how I love ya Dear old Swannie. !..

Exports of Tui would go through the roof..

[blobbles]

The S&P announcement amused me.

"NZ organisations that give house loans will be in the ****e if housing collapses! Therefore all the banks/lenders least exposed to housing are warned!"

Huh?

Their excuse of course was that the big four in NZ are Aussie owned and have heaps more backing so will be able to weather the storm. Of course, if the over inflated Aussie market pops at the same time they would be in the ****e big time having way too much on their loan books with a lot less equity cover. They didn't seem to notice that half the financial institutions they stated don't really do much home lending...

[percy]

May pay S&P to read ANZ bank chief economist Cameron Bagrie"s article on www.stuff.co.nz headed "NZ heading for 'rock star' status."
Did enjoy ;"NZ had stolen a "three year march" on Australia.'
Great stuff on stuff.

[mouse]

Percy, Good to see that you are now getting out of bed at a reasonable time. Mind you, anything before ten am is still too early.
The Heartland problem will take at least a week to settle down. Maybe longer. The S & P comment must do quite a bit of damage. What about 60cents? Are we running a book on it? Of course we are, with our shares. There are great opportunities available to lose, or make, cash.
Should we sell? Or buy?
All opinions welcome.

[Balance]

May pay S&P to read ANZ bank chief economist Cameron Bagrie"s article on www.stuff.co.nz headed "NZ heading for 'rock star' status."
Did enjoy ;"NZ had stolen a "three year march" on Australia.'
Great stuff on stuff.

S&P - the same clowns who gave AA to Credit Sails and all those CDOs etc.

In truth, they should be called Stupid and Posers.

I am surprised anyone still pay any attention to this bunch of full time *ankers.

[percy]

Percy, Good to see that you are now getting out of bed at a reasonable time. Mind you, anything before ten am is still too early.
The Heartland problem will take at least a week to settle down. Maybe longer. The S & P comment must do quite a bit of damage. What about 60cents? Are we running a book on it? Of course we are, with our shares. There are great opportunities available to lose, or make, cash.
Should we sell? Or buy?
All opinions welcome.
Yes getting out of bed a lot later.My cat,who got me out of bed at 5am to 6am for his breakfast had to be put down earlier this week.
I have been a 'fanatic' on Heartland for some time now.
The recent Macquarie presentation confirmed everything I and Sparky The Clown had posted.
The S&P carry on yesterday is now being seen for what it was,ie a lot of noise.
Heartland's response, and the Cameron Bargie article, will provide those who bother to read them, comfort that all that S&P noise is only noise.
In fact I would be so bold to say that Heartland will come out of it better understood by analysts,and sharetrader members who follow it.
SP.I don't know.I was happy to buy at 78cents yesterday.

[kizame]

The fundamentals remain the same. i note there wasn't a mention of who the other "banks" were,would like to know whom else was on the list. Percy if Heartland was a band,you would be in the mosh pit at their concert.

[CJ]

The fundamentals remain the same. i note there wasn't a mention of who the other "banks" were,would like to know whom else was on the list.TSB was on the list as well.



I am surprised anyone still pay any attention to this bunch of full time *ankers.
Unfortunately some funds investment mandates require them to follow S&P

[percy]

The fundamentals remain the same. i note there wasn't a mention of who the other "banks" were,would like to know whom else was on the list. Percy if Heartland was a band,you would be in the mosh pit at their concert.

Kizame;I actually think the fundamentals are a lot stronger than we thought.

Had to look up google to see what a mosh pit was>!!! Yes,you are right.
The list is;Co-Op Bank,Heartland Bank,TSB Bank,Credit Union Bayside,Credit Union South,First Credit Union,NZ Assc of Credit Unions,and Police and Families CreditUnion.

[kizame]

Kizame;I actually think the fundamentals are a lot stronger than we thought.

Had to look up google to see what a mosh pit was>!!! Yes,you are right.
The list is;Co-Op Bank,Heartland Bank,TSB Bank,Credit Union Bayside,Credit Union South,First Credit Union,NZ Assc of Credit Unions,and Police and Families CreditUnion.

Thanks Percy. I would have thought these would have been the more conservative of the financial institutions.

[mouse]

Percy, sympathies over the cat.
Please however follow the advice of the Trade Me chap, make that the last one, and protect the birds.
The attitude of S&P seems to be, 'big is beautiful.' Which is not often the case. If the SP goes down too low as a result of S&P then Heartland becomes the target of a take-over.

[kizame]

I don't think it's any more of a takeover target now than it was back when the shareprice was 50 odd cents.They still need to hit the runs,and get some great market share.

[percy]

Percy, sympathies over the cat.
Please however follow the advice of the Trade Me chap, make that the last one, and protect the birds.
The attitude of S&P seems to be, 'big is beautiful.' Which is not often the case. If the SP goes down too low as a result of S&P then Heartland becomes the target of a take-over.

Thanks for your sympathies.My cat helped keep the MOUSE population under control. So you are safe until we get another one.!!!!!
Can't bring myself to comment on the rest of your post.

[percy]

I don't think it's any more of a takeover target now than it was back when the shareprice was 50 odd cents.They still need to hit the runs,and get some great market share.

They are doing both steadily,in markets they want to be in.!!!

[mouse]

They are doing both steadily,in markets they want to be in.!!!

The problem is not Heartland, the problem is its shareholders! Kiwis seem to hand over companies to anyone who wants to buy. Particularly when there is a little stress about.

[K1W1G0LD]

this viewpoint care of Chris Lee in his latest column very interesting reading.Puts S&P on the spot for the Twats they are

Bank credit ratings - Standard & Poor, the credit rating agency, has issued a 'negative outlook' statement about smaller NZ banks and credit unions in response to their concern about the scale of NZ’s offshore funding and the risk of falling house prices in NZ.

After reading the S&P announcement I would characterize it as a mathematical formula:
‘= (if 6)’.

Their announcement has been unnecessarily unsettling to many callers with deposits in the various organisations.

After describing the risk as one of funding they proceed to state that they have excluded the major banks from the downgrade as they would likely receive support from their parents. So, does S&P mean equity support, or do they think they world’s lenders naively forget to look at the combined risk between Australia and NZ?

Further, if their main concern is the funding risk, our Reserve Bank tells us via its Core Funding Ratio that local retail deposits are the best funding to have, so S&P should have little fear in NZ’s smaller banking organisations which are almost entirely funded by retail deposits.

I think the S&P statement is unnecessarily aggressive and frankly, misleading.

That their statement comes immediately after the Budget on Thursday implies that they believe the government measures to reduce house pricing will be very successful, very soon, which is not an opinion that I share.

If Auckland house prices do fall, and I think this is still a big if, then it is likely to be in small increments as new housing supply makes it on to the market. During that slow process of change, borrowers will have repaid some of the debt through their principal repayments.

If the rollout of extra house supply takes the three to five years to be influential, that I expect, then an average 'high Loan to Value Ratio' mortgage in Auckland should have dropped from 90% to 80% over three years (assumes $450,000 loan, 5.25% interest rate, 20 year repayment = $15,000 equity per annum).

Further;

Did S&P completely ignore the rising equity levels on bank balance sheets and the new Reserve Bank of NZ demands for even higher capital from banks agreeing to high Loan to Value Ratio loans?

Did they ignore the declining unemployment, and rising employment, situation in NZ?

They clearly haven't looked deeply into the actual credit metrics of the smaller banks, or their domestic funding, before singling them out for elevated risk assessment.

Heartland Bank is one that we retain a familiarity with given customer investments with the bank. The following numbers are approximate: HNZ has $2.3 billion of lending with only 12% of this amount in residential mortgages (only 1.7% of total assets are in the so-called 'risky' Auckland region).

HNZ's average LVR across all residential mortgages is 45%, with the average for Auckland mortgages at 37%. The percentage of their loans with LVR above 90% (across NZ) is tiny, and these have other very strong protection in place. Heartland has no loans in Auckland with LVR's above 90%, in fact they have none above 80%.

Heartland has a very healthy 14.9% equity capital ratio, so with such a modest exposure to Auckland residential mortgages (per above) it doesn't warrant calculating the potential loss of equity for theoretical declines in the average value of Auckland property. The results would be minute even if the fall was a nonsensical 50%.

This also assumes the property owner doesn't simply continue to service the loan.

So why does S&P feel the need to place them on credit watch negative outlook with international funding and Auckland house price risks as the motive? The announcement looks like an unreasonable generalisation or an imprecise shot across the bows of ships that they cannot see very clearly.

S&P excluded the 'big banks' from the negative outlook downgrade because 'they would enjoy equity support from their owners'. They must have ignored that the NZX listed HNZ could ask its shareholders for more equity if ever necessary. They must also have disagreed with HNZ directors paying a dividend recently regardless of having excess equity and sustainable profits.

There was no comment about the fact that the largest and most aggressive lending in NZ recently has been delivered by the main banks. I was told that one of these major banks had written $1.7 billion of new lending, with two thirds of this in the 'high LVR' category.

The S&P focus on small banks is diametrically opposed from where their attention should actually be focused.

S&P's concern is anchored in New Zealand's oversized need for offshore lenders to support our economy, because we borrow too much money. This is a truth and must be addressed by increasing our exports, reducing our imports, achieving trade surpluses and actually saving money 'as a nation'.

If the world's lenders were refusing to lend to us, or were sharply increasing the price I would be concerned, but at present the opposite is true.

On this occasion I think that S&P have erred in downgrading the credit assessments of NZ banking, and have been quite unreasonable to the small banks.

I usually like investors to pay close attention to the independent opinions provided by the credit rating agencies but on this occasion I think investors should let 'negative outlook' assessment about our smaller banks drift on by without undue concern.

NZ banks are in good shape, have increased levels of equity, are well governed and are very well regulated by the central bank.

It’s as if S&P had nothing better to announce but it was time to say something, somewhere. Pick an easy target. It made me think of the dog control officer who finds it easy to pursue the poorly behaved Chihuahua which steps just outside its gate but ignores the snarling Pit Bull with no collar.

SBS Bank – Eagle eyed observers may have noticed that they were not covered by the S&P downgrade above. This is because they get their credit rating from Fitch, not S&P!

Fitch has not announced a downgrade like that from S&P.

[POSSUM THE CAT]

Sparky the Clown If Cris Lee says S&P are wrong with rating the banks. S&P must be right.

[winner69]

Sparky the Clown If Cris Lee says S&P are wrong with rating the banks. S&P must be right.

It was his offside Michael who made those comments

and kiwigold will be in deep deep trouble pasting something from Mr Lee's website ... he does not think much of us

[K1W1G0LD]

It was his offside Michael who made those comments

and kiwigold will be in deep deep trouble pasting something from Mr Lee's website ... he does not think much of us

Thats why I gave the venerable Mr Lee the credit for quoting from his column.

[percy]

Sparky the Clown If Cris Lee says S&P are wrong with rating the banks. S&P must be right.

Chris Lee site has been correct will all their references to HNZ.Even had Kevin attend HNZ agm.