Nat/act/nzf 2023

[Bjauck]

It's about time tax cuts came in. I just finalised my tax return for the 2023 tax year and my tax bill is far too high for my liking. Thieves the lot of them.
In the OECD Tax as a proportion of gdp ranges from 18% in Mexico to 46.5% in Denmark. In NZ it is 33.8% just below the OECD average. Of course NZ is an outlier not having a general CGT or stamp duties or inheritance tax. So income tax bears a bigger burden.

[Balance]

In the OECD Tax as a proportion of gdp ranges from 18% in Mexico to 46.5% in Denmark. In NZ it is 33.8% just below the OECD average. Of course NZ is an outlier not having a general CGT or stamp duties or inheritance tax. So income tax bears a bigger burden.

Any comparison must take into consideration the deductions which are allowed in some of the OECD countries (eg. Mortgage interest & school fees) which are not in NZ plus GST/VAT rates.

Otherwise, just a lot of garbage being debated about which country has the highest tax rates.

[Bjauck]

Any comparison must take into consideration the deductions which are allowed in some of the OECD countries (eg. Mortgage interest & school fees) which are not in NZ plus GST/VAT rates.

Otherwise, just a lot of garbage being debated about which country has the highest tax rates. The proportion of GDP paid in all taxes is the best comparison for tax burdens as it compares actual tax paid/actual gdp. Certainly nz income tax has very few allowable deductions. You cannot deduct school fees, health insurance, owner occupied mortgage interest.

[Balance]

The proportion of GDP paid in all taxes is the best comparison for tax burdens as it compares actual tax paid/actual gdp. Certainly nz income tax has very few allowable deductions. You cannot deduct school fees, health insurance, owner occupied mortgage interest.

Two points to note:

1. We really should be comparing ourselves with UK, Canada, Australia and US. Against them, we are at 33.8% vs 35.3%, 33.2%, 29.5% and 27.7% respectively. Can see why Australia with a lower tax take of 4.3% below NZ why ever more NZers are migrating there.

2. Countries with the higher %tage tax take to GDP (like Norway on 44.3%) typically offer extremely generous welfare benefits which their citizens accept as quid pro quo for their higher taxes.

NZ really needs a CGT to broaden the tax base while bringing the overall tax take on incomes & wages down.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-new-zealand.pdf

[Joshuatree]

It's about time tax cuts came in. I just finalised my tax return for the 2023 tax year and my tax bill is far too high for my liking. Thieves the lot of them.

Timing couldn't be worse.So much for the "Rock Solid "calculations.More inflation ahead.

[blackcap]

Timing couldn't be worse.So much for the "Rock Solid "calculations.More inflation ahead.

No, not more inflation ahead. Tax cuts in conjunction with less govt spending (ie let people decide where to spend their own money) will mean the inflation effect will be neutral.

[iceman]

No, not more inflation ahead. Tax cuts in conjunction with less govt spending (ie let people decide where to spend their own money) will mean the inflation effect will be neutral.

It is just too funny to watch the squealing about the tax cuts and how they will be inflationary. How often have we heard this argument used when Governments have announced announced new expenditure, often just a total waste that achieves absolutely nothing ? Latest example only a couple of days ago when the Government announced increased early childhood support. Did any media or Labour supporter's on here slam it as inflationary ?
I think we should just wait for the Budget and see what they intend to do.

[Bjauck]

Two points to note:

1. We really should be comparing ourselves with UK, Canada, Australia and US. Against them, we are at 33.8% vs 35.3%, 33.2%, 29.5% and 27.7% respectively. Can see why Australia with a lower tax take of 4.3% below NZ why ever more NZers are migrating there.

2. Countries with the higher %tage tax take to GDP (like Norway on 44.3%) typically offer extremely generous welfare benefits which their citizens accept as quid pro quo for their higher taxes.

NZ really needs a CGT to broaden the tax base while bringing the overall tax take on incomes & wages down.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-new-zealand.pdfI don’t think those big English speaking (mostly) countries a more fitting comparison than the Scandinavian countries (who are mostly proficient in English anyway)with similarly sized populations? I would say we have more similarities with Denmark than the USA anyway.Australia is big federal nation, as is Canada. Ireland would have greater similarities to NZ, except it has a European sugar daddy and in effect it can shelter behind NATO, without having obligations.

Certainly NZ needs to tax young kiwi workers less if it wants to keep more of them in NZ. Otherwise we end up training skilled workers for the benefit of Oz

[Panda-NZ-]

True it's like saying the tax take is high in a country with only 100 people.

Well, duh.

[Daytr]

Two points to note:

1. We really should be comparing ourselves with UK, Canada, Australia and US. Against them, we are at 33.8% vs 35.3%, 33.2%, 29.5% and 27.7% respectively. Can see why Australia with a lower tax take of 4.3% below NZ why ever more NZers are migrating there.

2. Countries with the higher %tage tax take to GDP (like Norway on 44.3%) typically offer extremely generous welfare benefits which their citizens accept as quid pro quo for their higher taxes.

NZ really needs a CGT to broaden the tax base while bringing the overall tax take on incomes & wages down.

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-new-zealand.pdf

Do those figures include duties and State Taxes? Stamp duty on property in Australia is pretty high for example.

In NZ we need to adjust the tax brackets higher and offset that with a CGT & inheritance tax.

I wouldn't mind paying more tax like Scandinavian countries do if we got the services they do as well, but I can't see that happening as all NZ Governments spend money poorly on average.

[Bjauck]

Do those figures include duties and State Taxes? Stamp duty on property in Australia is pretty high for example.

In NZ we need to adjust the tax brackets higher and offset that with a CGT & inheritance tax.

I wouldn't mind paying more tax like Scandinavian countries do if we got the services they do as well, but I can't see that happening as all NZ Governments spend money poorly on average. Their definition is tax paid to “general government” so I think it would include local government, state government and national government.

[Daytr]

Their definition is tax paid to “general government” so I think it would include local government, state government and national government,

I'm just surprised NZ is ranked so high in property taxes. We don't really pay property tax other than rates.

[Joshuatree]

It is just too funny to watch the squealing about the tax cuts and how they will be inflationary. How often have we heard this argument used when Governments have announced announced new expenditure, often just a total waste that achieves absolutely nothing ? Latest example only a couple of days ago when the Government announced increased early childhood support. Did any media or Labour supporter's on here slam it as inflationary ?
I think we should just wait for the Budget and see what they intend to do.
I wish it was pearls before swine but I think it's more like swine then resign.
"Tax cuts will mean deeper cuts to New Zealand's public services - which as the disability community found out last week actually directly affects people's day to day lives - but also it means inflation will stay higher for longer because there's simply no way they're going to be able to meet all of the commitments ."..1 hour ago rnz

[iceman]

I wish it was pearls before swine but I think it's more like swine then resign.
"Tax cuts will mean deeper cuts to New Zealand's public services - which as the disability community found out last week actually directly affects people's day to day lives - but also it means inflation will stay higher for longer because there's simply no way they're going to be able to meet all of the commitments ."..1 hour ago rnz

RNZ :-) :-)
Firstly, there were NO CUTS for funding for the disability community last week, however often people like you and RNZ repeat that lie. The Government was working on the Budget set by the last Government which was fast running out because there were no rules as to how that money should be spent. Surprise, surprise.
Then "there's simply no way they're going to be able to meet all of their commitments". Well of course they could just do what Robertson did and continue on with the excessive spending and put it on the credit card. Hopefully Nicola is more responsible. We sure need her to be, now that the full picture of last 6 years of mismanagement is being laid bare..

[Daytr]

RNZ :-) :-)
Firstly, there were NO CUTS for funding for the disability community last week, however often people like you and RNZ repeat that lie. The Government was working on the Budget set by the last Government which was fast running out because there were no rules as to how that money should be spent. Surprise, surprise.
Then "there's simply no way they're going to be able to meet all of their commitments". Well of course they could just do what Robertson did and continue on with the excessive spending and put it on the credit card. Hopefully Nicola is more responsible. We sure need her to be, now that the full picture of last 6 years of mismanagement is being laid bare..

Of course there are cuts.
BS subterfuge from the Government.
I already know of disabled people having to cancel their overseas flights as they can't afford to take their carer with them without the Government payment.

[Balance]

Of course there are cuts.
BS subterfuge from the Government.
I already know of disabled people having to cancel their overseas flights as they can't afford to take their carer with them without the Government payment.

In time of austerity and tight budgets, working families are having to make sacrifices and I know of many who have postponed or cancelled overseas trips in favour of domestic trips/holidays.

The budget allocated to Disability Community (by Labour) has run low and so, sacrifices have to be made via reallocation of what's left so that the disabled needs are prioritized.

Or should the government just keep topping up?

Where are the cuts? If anyone is to be blamed, it's Labour for not allocating enough in the first place in last year's budget.

Meanwhile, Labour by Hipkins' own admission spent big on Kiwibuild and Auckland Light Rail , knowing full well they were undeliverable projects, with bugger all to show for the hundreds of millions $$$$$$$$$$$ spending. Just keep topping up and wasting the money.

Most transparent government ever!

[Joshuatree]

Gawd the stench from BlubberBalances every time it opens up it's orifice and plays a one eyed tune,"... because I'm whaling,wailing,whaling"
I guess all will be revealed soon,but it's looking grim for this country ,especially governed by this coalition of chaos cannibals,their credibility has gone and their timing couldn't be worse.

[iceman]

Of course there are cuts.
BS subterfuge from the Government.
I already know of disabled people having to cancel their overseas flights as they can't afford to take their carer with them without the Government payment.

You are BS-ing once again. There have been no cuts to the overall budget. The previous Government that you supported every step of the way, helicoptered in money that disappeared really quickly because they had no rules for it. It didn't last anywhere near the 12 months it was supposed to last. So you are simply lying when you say there have been cuts. The money the previous Government budgeted has simply been prioritised, as it should have been from the beginning. Labour never budgeted for the carer you mention, to go on an overseas trip. It was "first in best dressed" and of course the money run out. Do you really not get that ?

[blackcap]

You are BS-ing once again. There have been no cuts to the overall budget. The previous Government that you supported every step of the way, helicoptered in money that disappeared really quickly because they had no rules for it. It didn't last anywhere near the 12 months it was supposed to last. So you are simply lying when you say there have been cuts. The money the previous Government budgeted has simply been prioritised, as it should have been from the beginning. Labour never budgeted for the carer you mention, to go on an overseas trip. It was "first in best dressed" and of course the money run out. Do you really not get that ?

Who cares if there are cuts. Cut as far as I am concerned and give tax cuts. The beauracracy is far too large as it stands. It can halve for all I care. Let people decide what they do with their own money. Safety net for sure, but not a lifestyle.

[Balance]

You are BS-ing once again. There have been no cuts to the overall budget. The previous Government that you supported every step of the way, helicoptered in money that disappeared really quickly because they had no rules for it. It didn't last anywhere near the 12 months it was supposed to last. So you are simply lying when you say there have been cuts. The money the previous Government budgeted has simply been prioritised, as it should have been from the beginning. Labour never budgeted for the carer you mention, to go on an overseas trip. It was "first in best dressed" and of course the money run out. Do you really not get that ?

Shows glaringly the mindset of Labour and its supporters :

1. Spend recklessly & wastefully with no limits and no accountability, no restraint, no set budget

and

2. Load up with debt

and

3. Tax with no restraint.

[Daytr]

In time of austerity and tight budgets, working families are having to make sacrifices and I know of many who have postponed or cancelled overseas trips in favour of domestic trips/holidays.

The budget allocated to Disability Community (by Labour) has run low and so, sacrifices have to be made via reallocation of what's left so that the disabled needs are prioritized.

Or should the government just keep topping up?

Where are the cuts? If anyone is to be blamed, it's Labour for not allocating enough in the first place in last year's budget.

Meanwhile, Labour by Hipkins' own admission spent big on Kiwibuild and Auckland Light Rail , knowing full well they were undeliverable projects, with bugger all to show for the hundreds of millions $$$$$$$$$$$ spending. Just keep topping up and wasting the money.

Most transparent government ever!

The disabled have a constant struggle for equal access to living a life that most would accept as normal.
The Government has just made that struggle more difficult.

You refer to domestic trips instead, that doesn't work for someone who has business overseas to perform. The Government have cut funding for inter regional travel either.

Lots of transparency here eh Balance.
Didn't campaign on cuts to the disability sector.
Didn't consult with the disability sector.

[Daytr]

Iceman, you need to be careful who you call a liar.

You, Balance, NZTX etc keep using this blanket ridiculous argument that anyone who criticizes the Government as rabid lefties etc.

Where did I "support every step of the way, helicoptered in money" I think you need to be more specific by what you mean by 'helicoptered in money'.

The only funding that meets that description was in relation to the Covid response like the wage subsidy and yes I did & still do support that as the economic consequences of not delivering relief to a large part of the country, unable to earn due to a once in a 100 year event, was not only necessary but critical.

The disability sector's funding had increased by an unbudgeted $57M roughly the rate of inflation. The current Government specifically mentioned this when they were caught on the hop. Disability funding unbelievably isn't adjusted for inflation and Government is looking to recoup that budgetary blowout caused by ...inflation. So NAFT are cutting the funding to the disability sector by the rate of inflation.
And I am yet to see that things they have cut funding on will be relocated to other disability funding. It was clear they are trying to reign in the inflationary creep.

Pick on someone else!

[iceman]

Iceman, you need to be careful who you call a liar.

You, Balance, NZTX etc keep using this blanket ridiculous argument that criticizes the Government as rabid lefties etc.

Where did I "support every step of the way, helicoptered in money" I think you need to be more specific by what you mean by 'helicoptered in money'.

The only funding that meets that description was in relation to the Covid response like the wage subsidy and yes I did & still do support that as the economic consequences of not delivering relief to a large part of the country, unable to earn due to a once in a 100 year event, was not only necessary but critical.

The disability sector's funding had increased by an unbudgeted $57M roughly the rate of inflation. The current Government specifically mentioned this when they were caught on the hop. Disability funding unbelievably isn't adjusted for inflation and Government is looking to recoup that budgetary blowout caused by ...inflation. So NAFT are cutting the funding to the disability sector by the rate of inflation.
And I am yet to see that things they have cut funding on will be relocated to other disability funding. It was clear they are trying to reign in the inflationary creep.

Pick on someone else!

I agree I and others need to be careful calling people liars. But the easiest thing for you would be to substantiate your claim, that I believe is incorrect, that there has been a cut to disability funding by the Coalition Government. Not just a reference to someone not being paid to go on a trip to Australia.

I'm not regurgitating arguments about the cavalier attitude of the previous Government with their spending of our money, particularly the massive "COVID fund" that was mostly spent on stuff that had nothing to do with COVID. We now need to focus on paying for all that waste.

[Balance]

Iceman, you need to be careful who you call a liar.

You, Balance, NZTX etc keep using this blanket ridiculous argument that criticizes the Government as rabid lefties etc.

Where did I "support every step of the way, helicoptered in money" I think you need to be more specific by what you mean by 'helicoptered in money'.

The only funding that meets that description was in relation to the Covid response like the wage subsidy and yes I did & still do support that as the economic consequences of not delivering relief to a large part of the country, unable to earn due to a once in a 100 year event, was not only necessary but critical.

The disability sector's funding had increased by an unbudgeted $57M roughly the rate of inflation. The current Government specifically mentioned this when they were caught on the hop. Disability funding unbelievably isn't adjusted for inflation and Government is looking to recoup that budgetary blowout caused by ...inflation. So NAFT are cutting the funding to the disability sector by the rate of inflation.
And I am yet to see that things they have cut funding on will be relocated to other disability funding. It was clear they are trying to reign in the inflationary creep.

Pick on someone else!

Oh, now that he cannot substantiate his allegation of cuts, the liar is trying to equate his lie of cut as non-adjustment for inflation!

Take your spin and BS elsewhere, Daytr - you do not get away with lies here and you never will.

Just like Ardern in the end - lies caught up with her. Most transparent government ever!

[Daytr]

Oh, now the liar is trying to equate his lie of cut as adjustment for inflation!

Take your spin and BS elsewhere, Daytr - you do not get away with lies here and you never will.

Just like Ardern in the end - lies caught up with her. Most transparent government ever!

Get up to speed Balance, I stated the inflation adjustment some time ago.
But I'm not just making that claim.
The funding not spent on the newly banned criteria will not be reallocated.

The budget had blown out by $57Mln or about the amount of inflation because the budget is not adjusted for inflation.

NAFT want to recover that budget blow out. So they are cutting the spend by circa $57Mln, which isn't more of anything it's getting them less purchasing power compounding year on year.

If NAFT had a heart they would have increased the budget to account for inflation not be dictating how the disabled can live their already disadvantaged lives.

[Daytr]

I agree I and others need to be careful calling people liars. But the easiest thing for you would be to substantiate your claim, that I believe is incorrect, that there has been a cut to disability funding by the Coalition Government. Not just a reference to someone not being paid to go on a trip to Australia.

I'm not regurgitating arguments about the cavalier attitude of the previous Government with their spending of our money, particularly the massive "COVID fund" that was mostly spent on stuff that had nothing to do with COVID. We now need to focus on paying for all that waste.

I don't need to substantiate it, NAFT have already done that by banning funding for that type of travel as they said it wasn't appropriate spending, theyvwent further and on the attack accusing careres of all sorts of abuse if the system.

A representative of the disability community on RNZ a few days ago said she was directly impacted and had canceled her trip as I outlined. I personally know of others who will be directly impacted going forward.

I will give you a theoretical example.
A family of five want to go on a holiday in Taupo from Wellington. One of them is severely disabled and needs a carer 24/7.

Does the rest of the family go on holiday and leave behind the disabled family member as the carers funding for travel inter regionally has been cut?

Yeah just stuff em eh.

[Balance]

Another mess for the new government to tackle - bad behaviour in schools.

And who was minister of Education over the last 6 years?

Chris Hipkins before he became PM in Feb 2023 and Jan Tinetti took over.

Recall that Jan Tinetti was brought to the Privileges Committee for misleading the House and was found guilty.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/report-finds-nz-students-among-worst-behaved-in-the-oecd-says-a-more-national-approach-is-required/AHGAZ7PKKRCJLB3DOWORKK4W7Y/

"New Zealand school students are among the worst-behaved kids in the OECD and behaviour has worsened in the last two years, a new report has found.

A report released by the Education Review Office (ERO) this morning has called for classroom behaviour to become a priority and a more “national approach” to worsening behaviour.

“But we also know it is getting worse, with over half of teachers saying all types of disruptive behaviour had become worse in the last two years.”

https://www.thepost.co.nz/media/images/9Tzi8ywRz924XE3uHaD6DZ3Ef+IdbOiYlvIROR5vlqUeRrexTo cZGobKRJ9od%2Fgnk3B%2FCeKTmTAsIjj6Q0YaYeg+UJRV3Y0C is4x+tejQ6%2FIFgBshkoLScpmvEkMWi91Zn4K8Pf%2FTk9o%2 FjwcY9Thvd0DS7IspA6LwrVP5kflJlIgFOA25qr9OvLwynbXYT nuJZeeyRZvN3U9bqNIDOubR3mNsbpEORPLcomxc1In%2Ftckeb 5oSCpfhkn9gS3obV1eCaUJXSxbt0HMPBt0XZk292QpNe4dJnIJ R9cMMfnBWh5MZFdNjwPJk%2FkIxuz8k%2FNVDYUK9fVHrcmvu1 oZi0x5RpCJ4vCmQta1SjY2iLfjmLYzlzmnYnGtGq%2Fbr4nt9y uejaRuHuHIjZ7uH655vXmLiq5CvP0u3LXkUAUEGfJcn3pwsgK+ 7Cf0DKw%2FAPDCiR1J?resolution=1240x700

[davflaws]

“But we also know it is getting worse, with over half of teachers saying all types of disruptive behaviour had become worse in the last two years.”


I hope you aren't taking notice of anything the teachers say. You know they're just a bunch of woke leftists.

Probably they're just reacting to a few of the more sensible students pushing back against the Marxist nonsense that has trickeld down from the Universities and Training Colleges into the schools these days, or to the Maorification of the curriculum that has undoubtedly occurred to the detriment of educational standards.

[mistaTea]

Another mess for the new government to tackle - bad behaviour in schools.

And who was minister of Education over the last 6 years?

Chris Hipkins before he became PM in Feb 2023 and Jan Tinetti took over.

Recall that Jan Tinetti was brought to the Privileges Committee for misleading the House and was found guilty.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/report-finds-nz-students-among-worst-behaved-in-the-oecd-says-a-more-national-approach-is-required/AHGAZ7PKKRCJLB3DOWORKK4W7Y/

"New Zealand school students are among the worst-behaved kids in the OECD and behaviour has worsened in the last two years, a new report has found.

A report released by the Education Review Office (ERO) this morning has called for classroom behaviour to become a priority and a more “national approach” to worsening behaviour.

“But we also know it is getting worse, with over half of teachers saying all types of disruptive behaviour had become worse in the last two years.”

https://www.thepost.co.nz/media/images/9Tzi8ywRz924XE3uHaD6DZ3Ef+IdbOiYlvIROR5vlqUeRrexTo cZGobKRJ9od%2Fgnk3B%2FCeKTmTAsIjj6Q0YaYeg+UJRV3Y0C is4x+tejQ6%2FIFgBshkoLScpmvEkMWi91Zn4K8Pf%2FTk9o%2 FjwcY9Thvd0DS7IspA6LwrVP5kflJlIgFOA25qr9OvLwynbXYT nuJZeeyRZvN3U9bqNIDOubR3mNsbpEORPLcomxc1In%2Ftckeb 5oSCpfhkn9gS3obV1eCaUJXSxbt0HMPBt0XZk292QpNe4dJnIJ R9cMMfnBWh5MZFdNjwPJk%2FkIxuz8k%2FNVDYUK9fVHrcmvu1 oZi0x5RpCJ4vCmQta1SjY2iLfjmLYzlzmnYnGtGq%2Fbr4nt9y uejaRuHuHIjZ7uH655vXmLiq5CvP0u3LXkUAUEGfJcn3pwsgK+ 7Cf0DKw%2FAPDCiR1J?resolution=1240x700

I wonder if kids behaviour has steadily worsened after Sue Bradford's anti-smacking legislation was passed.

[Joshuatree]

How's this. One girl at a local college picked on another pushed her to the groundand started beating up on her. A circle of kids some taking videos.A teacher also standing there.The student being beaten up begged the teacher to help. The teacher did not as they are not allowed to intervene!!!!??? World gone mad.

[mistaTea]

How's this. One girl at a local college picked on another pushed her to the groundand started beating up on her. A circle of kids some taking videos.A teacher also standing there.The student being beaten up begged the teacher to help. The teacher did not as they are not allowed to intervene!!!!??? World gone mad.

I can tell you now that smacking, when used sparingly, is very effective.

I see these little sh1ts running rough shot over their parents all the time. No real boundaries, no real consequences.

Smacking was removed over night but zero training or support on what parents can do instead for effective discipline. So a lot of kids just get away with murder now and parents give in for some peace and quiet. I do think we are starting to see more and more of the social consequences of that law change.

And the law was passed to stop serious child abuse. Well, it was never going to have any impact on people who actually beat (and sometimes even murder) their kids. No evidence of serious harm on children decreasing, but the majority of good parents criminilised if they smack. And by God, sometimes these kids do need a crack on the arse to sort them out when they start getting too carried away and get ideas that listening to their parents and behaving is optional.

[iceman]

How's this. One girl at a local college picked on another pushed her to the groundand started beating up on her. A circle of kids some taking videos.A teacher also standing there.The student being beaten up begged the teacher to help. The teacher did not as they are not allowed to intervene!!!!??? World gone mad.

The World has gone mad. My wife came home extremely frustrated yesterday after teaching a class of 7 yo. One badly behaved boy basically disrupted teaching for the whole day. She went 3 times to talk to the Principal who was never available. Only Principal and Deputy Principals can do anything about this. My wife was not allowed to discipline him in any way except try to talk to him, but he did not listen to anything and went as far as calling her a bi**h. So one 7 yo basically ruined the day for the other 26 kids in the class as well as the teacher & teacher aid.
The whole system is bloody useless and with our inability to discipline these kids and teach them what is not an acceptable behaviour, it will keep getting worse.

[iceman]

I wonder if kids behaviour has steadily worsened after Sue Bradford's anti-smacking legislation was passed.

Of course it has. That Bill has not achieved anything except a worse society. One of the things Sue Bradford said at the time was that smacking lead to further violence in the homes and pointed out to deaths of young children from beating. Well has the smacking law fixed that ??

[mistaTea]

Of course it has. That Bill has not achieved anything except a worse society. One of the things Sue Bradford said at the time was that smacking lead to further violence in the homes and pointed out to deaths of young children from beating. Well has the smacking law fixed that ??

Yeah, just nuts. And John Key just rammed it through from memory, no real thought to the wider implications and consequences.

And now it is hard (politically) to unravel. Can you imagine any of our politicians in any of the parties standing up and saying "We want to amend the law so parents can smack their kids" ?

The media would go nuts, and they would get crucified for it.

It would take a rare individual to put their reputation etc on the line over this, even though repealing that terrible law is something I think needs to happen.

[Bjauck]

Who cares if there are cuts. Cut as far as I am concerned and give tax cuts. The beauracracy is far too large as it stands. It can halve for all I care. Let people decide what they do with their own money. Safety net for sure, but not a lifestyle. What if the spending cuts were to law enforcement and administration. Forget about the state enforcing intellectual property and commercial law. I imagine dungeons and a private army to kept squatters off your properties and thieves from stripping your investments would not be cheap. The bureaucracy and legal system of the state benefits middle class enterprise.

[Balance]

What if the spending cuts were to law enforcement and administration. Forget about the state enforcing intellectual property and commercial law. I imagine dungeons and a private army to kept squatters off your properties and thieves from stripping your investments would not be cheap. The bureaucracy and legal system of the state benefits middle class enterprise.

Wrong - the bloated bureaucracy principally benefits the bureaucrats. Everyone else pay for the inefficiencies created by these overpaid civil masters.

[Daytr]

Yeah, just nuts. And John Key just rammed it through from memory, no real thought to the wider implications and consequences.

And now it is hard (politically) to unravel. Can you imagine any of our politicians in any of the parties standing up and saying "We want to amend the law so parents can smack their kids" ?

The media would go nuts, and they would get crucified for it.

It would take a rare individual to put their reputation etc on the line over this, even though repealing that terrible law is something I think needs to happen.

I think it was Helen Clarke.
The original aim was targeted at kids getting beaten not disciplined and then it got over cooked. Corporal punishment had already been banned in most schools by then so I'm not sure the law change made that much difference.

There has been a social breakdown since Covid where people think they could do what they want without consequences.

We bring fighting like MMA into our homes showing our kids it's alright to dive on someone on the ground and keep beating them.

Violent video games.

It's not the Government's role to be the disciplinarian or to raise kids with respect. Parents need to take that responsibility.
Unfortunately too often teachers aren't backed up by their principal etc when an over zealous or protective parent makes a complaint.

[Panda-NZ-]

What if the spending cuts were to law enforcement and administration. Forget about the state enforcing intellectual property and commercial law. I imagine dungeons and a private army to kept squatters off your properties and thieves from stripping your investments would not be cheap. The bureaucracy and legal system of the state benefits middle class enterprise.

Some of the harshest cuts are for MBIE.

Yeah sure let's not have proper forecasting on the economy, research on where lucrative industries are, small business help etc.

So dumb and ideological. I think we'll know what happens when they start tearing into the bio-security budget.

[Balance]

So the woke leftist journos at TVNZ actually think that the majority of NZers care about some of them losing their jobs?

And they actually believe that they held those in power to account? Most transparent government ever and one source of truth together with $55m - that’s power!

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/512919/tvnz-staff-rally-outside-auckland-headquarters-to-protest-proposed-cuts-to-jobs-and-shows

Miriama Kamo. Photo: RNZ / Marika Khabazi
"What that means for our country is that the ability to do our job disappears, as do people's ability to be heard, understood and responded to. It's a reflection of what's happening to journalism here and across the world, the implications are very concerning.

"Our job is to listen to and reflect our national identity, to enable discussion and debate, to provide platforms for people to understand issues and consider where they stand and to strengthen democracy by holding power to account."

[dobby41]

It's about time tax cuts came in. I just finalised my tax return for the 2023 tax year and my tax bill is far too high for my liking. Thieves the lot of them.

My tax bill is next to nothing - aren't tax-free capital gains such wonderful things?

[Bjauck]

Some of the harshest cuts are for MBIE.

Yeah sure let's not have proper forecasting on the economy, research on where lucrative industries are, small business help etc.

So dumb and ideological. I think we'll know what happens when they start tearing into the bio-security budget. Town planning, public works admin, accreditation of qualifications “bureaucracy” should be trimmed too. Anyone for bridge and building failures?

[Bjauck]

My tax bill is next to nothing - aren't tax-free capital gains such wonderful things? At least you aren’t paying for the bloated bureaucracy :t_up:

By “tax bill” do you mean your terminal tax? Or is it the total of Provisional tax, PIE tax, RWT, Imputation credit, PAYE as well as Terminal?

[RTM]

Some of the harshest cuts are for MBIE.

Yeah sure let's not have proper forecasting on the economy, research on where lucrative industries are, small business help etc.

So dumb and ideological. I think we'll know what happens when they start tearing into the bio-security budget.

Take a look at what is happening at Ruapehu. And then think about whether we want MBIE selecting horses to back.

[Balance]

Howls of protests about job cuts at Ministry of Pacific Affairs.

Why don’t they start by articulating what the 350% (yes, 350% - it was a Hiring Orgy) increase in staff (from 34 in 2017 to 156) had achieved for the Pacific communities? Be specific.

Then, explain what kind of mindset exists at the ministry to spend $40,000 to farewell its CEO?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/512886/government-cuts-will-hit-pasifika-communities-hard-union

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/taxpayers-union-slams-shortsighted-ministry-for-pacific-peoples-after-40k-farewell-party.html

Minister of Pacific Peoples being congratulated by Hapless Hipkins for the Hiring Orgy :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/CV4QIZQOKJEJTCYFXCRJN3W6HY.jpg?auth=c5c2268167d070 b002b2f1aa0e5307ed79d5ad25b693ff7bc7a7dba453429847&width=1440&height=960&quality=70&smart=true

Minister of Pacific Peoples from 2023 - continuing with the Hiring Orgy. Now Finance spokesperson!!!!!

https://media.rnztools.nz/rnz/image/upload/s--SZmQ169O--/ar_16:10,c_fill,f_auto,g_auto,q_auto,w_1050/v1708389562/4KUIJIG_MicrosoftTeams_image_4_png

[Balance]

Why is there no Ministry of Asian Peoples?

[iceman]

Howls of protests about job cuts at Ministry of Pacific Affairs.

Why don’t they start by articulating what the 350% (yes, 350% - it was a Hiring Orgy) increase in staff (from 34 in 2017 to 156) had achieved for the Pacific communities? Be specific.

Then, explain what kind of mindset exists at the ministry to spend $40,000 to farewell its CEO?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/512886/government-cuts-will-hit-pasifika-communities-hard-union

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/08/taxpayers-union-slams-shortsighted-ministry-for-pacific-peoples-after-40k-farewell-party.html

Minister of Pacific Peoples being congratulated by Hapless Hipkins for the Hiring Orgy :

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/CV4QIZQOKJEJTCYFXCRJN3W6HY.jpg?auth=c5c2268167d070 b002b2f1aa0e5307ed79d5ad25b693ff7bc7a7dba453429847&width=1440&height=960&quality=70&smart=true

Minister of Pacific Peoples from 2023 - continuing with the Hiring Orgy. Now Finance spokesperson!!!!!

https://media.rnztools.nz/rnz/image/upload/s--SZmQ169O--/ar_16:10,c_fill,f_auto,g_auto,q_auto,w_1050/v1708389562/4KUIJIG_MicrosoftTeams_image_4_png

Im really disappointed in these job cuts. They should not be happening. The whole Ministry should be shut down. So should a few other Ministries such as Sports, Women, , Digitising Government, Ethnic Communities, Disability Issues, Racing and no doubt many more. We should have a maximum of 12-14 Ministers and all inside Cabinet. Not the current 20. The whole system is a joke

[Panda-NZ-]

Town planning, public works admin, accreditation of qualifications “bureaucracy” should be trimmed too. Anyone for bridge and building failures?

Let's also cut back on mine safety.

Send Brooke van Velden down a mine to see what it's like.
She might call for a helicopter rescue after breaking a nail though. :p

[winner69]

Suppose many now regretting elevating Luxon to lead Nats and hence become PM

He’s no leader, let alone a politician or statesman

NZ is stuffed with him in charge …..shame as the country needs a strong leader to move forward

[Bjauck]

Im really disappointed in these job cuts. They should not be happening. The whole Ministry should be shut down. So should a few other Ministries such as Sports, Women, , Digitising Government, Ethnic Communities, Disability Issues, Racing and no doubt many more. We should have a maximum of 12-14 Ministers and all inside Cabinet. Not the current 20. The whole system is a joke I suspect ministries taylored for the majority would see the needs of minorities more likely to be ignored. Do you think that a one approach fits all will make the most harmonious society? Do you think there may be some friction until we become a melting pot nation of cookie-cutter cloned people with identical needs?

In the absence of radical reforms, under bi-partisan high immigration policies, Anglo-Celtic males may well be a minority with needs diverged from the rest of the country with justification for their own ministry….

[Balance]

Suppose many now regretting elevating Luxon to lead Nats and hence become PM

He’s no leader, let alone a politician or statesman

NZ is stuffed with him in charge …..shame as the country needs a strong leader to move forward

Too late for NZ.

Does not matter who is in charge - NZ is already completely stuffed after 6 years of divisive, totally inept and clueless government. The country is a breeding ground for ever more parasites, losers and beneficiaries.

The young, intelligent and skilled with drive and ambition who care about a real future fortunately have Australia to go to and NZ will see hundreds of thousands of them continue to migrate there in the years ahead.

Watch as our best doctors, nurses, police personnel, graduates and hard working professionals leave NZ to the wasteland of gloom and despondency it is rapidly descending into. And rejoice!

And good luck to them - they go with the best wishes from those of us who care about the future for them and their families.

[Panda-NZ-]

Suppose many now regretting elevating Luxon to lead Nats and hence become PM

He’s no leader, let alone a politician or statesman

He's a caricature of a conservative - privileged, out of touch and preaching what others should do from his ivory tower.

Of course his own standards and words don't apply to him since he's part of the "ruling class".

[Balance]

Too late for NZ.

Does not matter who is in charge - NZ is already completely stuffed after 6 years of divisive, totally inept and clueless government. The country is a breeding ground for ever more parasites, losers and beneficiaries.

The young, intelligent and skilled with drive and ambition who care about a real future fortunately have Australia to go to and NZ will see hundreds of thousands of them continue to migrate there in the years ahead.

Watch as our best doctors, nurses, police personnel, graduates and hard working professionals leave NZ to the wasteland of gloom and despondency it is rapidly descending into. And rejoice!

And good luck to them - they go with the best wishes from those of us who care about the future for them and their families.

Thousands of such 'workers' are in NZ - allowed in under Labour's liberal 'close-one-eye' immigration policies - and they are allowed to stay on due to humanitarian considerations.

And we know one of the Green MPs, Dorleen Tana, happily partook in the exploitation.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/509925/vietnamese-migrants-sold-everything-to-pay-for-work-visas-claim-promised-jobs-non-existent

A group of 16 Vietnamese allegedly paid $203,000 after being promised work and new lives, but arrived to find no jobs and were left with a mountain of debt that they say will be impossible for them to pay off.

A spokeswoman for the group, Sky Duong, said the group were recruited through Facebook to work for New Zealand company Do Painters Limited and had been promised a wage of $50 an hour.

She said they each paid $35,000 and an additional $15,000 for those with spouses and children for the job offer and an agent referred to them by the company to support their application for the work visas.

https://thumbnailer.digitalnz.org/?resize=664%3E&src=https%3A%2F%2Fndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz%2FNLN ZStreamGate%2Fget%3Fdps_pid%3DIE69121892

[Balance]

Heck, even Chris Luxon's daughter has migrated to Australia!

Clever lady!

Chris must be worried about how and who he is going to sell his property portfolio to before property prices really crash? Before he decamps too to Australia.

[Daytr]

Too late for NZ.

Does not matter who is in charge - NZ is already completely stuffed after 6 years of divisive, totally inept and clueless government. The country is a breeding ground for ever more parasites, losers and beneficiaries.

The young, intelligent and skilled with drive and ambition who care about a real future fortunately have Australia to go to and NZ will see hundreds of thousands of them continue to migrate there in the years ahead.

Watch as our best doctors, nurses, police personnel, graduates and hard working professionals leave NZ to the wasteland of gloom and despondency it is rapidly descending into. And rejoice!

And good luck to them - they go with the best wishes from those of us who care about the future for them and their families.

At yet it was Labour who raised the minimum wage aggressively and it's wages that are attracting our talent to Australia.

Many of the issues that you outline have stuffed NZ have been simmering for decades. Shortage of housing, low minimum wage, low incomes for teachers, nurses & police.
And what did National do in it's nine years to alleviate these issues? Nothing.

The pandemic exposed NZs inadequacies and applied pressure to its weak points.
Could Labour have done better, sure but at least they tried something unlike tge previous Government.

And now what's National doing to the police again? Screwing them.
NAFT aren't interested in solving the issue.

Watch out teachers & nurses will be next.

[Panda-NZ-]

Kiwis out -> Migrants in.

No pressure to lift wages when there's someone to replace you as Mark mitchell put it to the police officers recently.

UK expats consider NZ a paradise compared to their own country (of course they will prefer Aus, so we get the second best tier).

[Balance]

At yet it was Labour who raised the minimum wage aggressively and it's wages that are attracting our talent to Australia.

Many of the issues that you outline have stuffed NZ have been simmering for decades. Shortage of housing, low minimum wage, low incomes for teachers, nurses & police.
And what did National do in it's nine years to alleviate these issues? Nothing.

The pandemic exposed NZs inadequacies and applied pressure to its weak points.
Could Labour have done better, sure but at least they tried something unlike tge previous Government.*

And now what's National doing to the police again? Screwing them.
NAFT aren't interested in solving the issue.

Watch out teachers & nurses will be next.

You seriously think that those of us with options care any more about fxxked up NZ, after 6 years of fxxked up government who had already screwed up everything?

Screw the doctors, nurses and ECE teachers further so they all leave for Australia faster - I say that's a good thing.

NZ is stuffed and nobody is going to be able to do anything to stop the decline towards second world status.

I will be enjoying myself in my tropical beach side second home (beautiful powdery white golden sand beach kissed by crystal clear ocean waters) - going to be sad but so satisfying watching the losers and parasites in NZ fight over the diminishing economic pie.

PS. Why didn't Labour increase wages to $50 an hour (if that is a valid economic strategy) and every worker in NZ would be rich and better off according to that inflationary socialist/communist doctrine? Labour trying something unlike previous governments - you mean like Kiwibuild and increasing staff at Pacific Peoples by 350%? Wow!!!!!!!

https://media.nomadicmatt.com/2023/whitsundayislands.jpeg

[Bjauck]

You seriously think that those of us with options care any more about fxxked up NZ, after 6 years of fxxked up government who had already screwed up everything? ….[/IMG] Seriously why do you waste your time commenting on these political threads then? Unless you want to undermine those who don’t think NZ is beyond help after the previous six year period. If you really don’t care about NZ, save your energy for whichever country you do care about.

Unlike a marriage you do not have to remain committed to your country in sickness until death do you part. Ask not what you can do for your country, just go to your tropical beach shangri-la and we will pray the tropical cyclones and rising sea levels don’t wash you back to our country.

[Balance]

Seriously why do you waste your time commenting on these political threads then? Unless you want to undermine those who don’t think NZ is beyond help after the previous six year period. If you really don’t care about NZ, save your energy for whichever country you do care about.

Unlike a marriage you do not have to remain committed to your country in sickness until death do you part. Ask not what you can do for your country, just go to your tropical beach shangri-la and we will pray the tropical cyclones and rising sea levels don’t wash you back to our country.

Can't stand the truth staring you in the face?

I have the right (having paid my taxes over the decades) & energy to comment as I like - just as you have the right to put me or anyone on Ignore if you cannot handle the truth.

Ask yourself one question, Bjauck, before you comment any further :

How fxxked up can any country be when Immigration ministers formulated and implemented an immigration policy (Accredited Employers Programme -AEP) with instructions for officers to close both eyes and just allow in as many totally unqualified and impoverished employees as 'employers' want?

And when they are here, they can claim economic refugee status and stay at taxpayers' expense?

You seriously think that there is much hope for such a fxxked up country which incidentally added 16,000 more bureaucrats at the additional cost of several billion dollars to oversee the 'smooth' operation of NZ?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/509925/vietnamese-migrants-sold-everything-to-pay-for-work-visas-claim-promised-jobs-non-existent

Duong said the migrants, who spoke no English, came from a small fishing village called Dam Mon in the Vietnamese Khanh Hoa Province.

"They are very simple-minded people, and their daily lives are just about fishing and cooking. Some of them have never even been to school, and their daily wage there is only about $12-$15 a day," Duong said.

"So when they were told about this opportunity to work in NZ, where they can get paid $50 an hour and have proper education for their children, they were prepared to sell everything they own and borrow large sums of money to come."

[Bjauck]

Truth? Why should we bother reading a post from somebody who has stated they don’t care about NZ? It sounds like it is going to be a load of rubbish as after all you don’t care! It is a long post from somebody who does not care about NZ though.

[Panda-NZ-]

He's not bothering to defend this govt which is a start on the long path to redemption.

Prefers to go on about his bach and labour (particuarly jacinda).

[Balance]

Truth? Why should we bother reading a post from somebody who has stated they don’t care about NZ? It sounds like it is going to be a load of rubbish as after all you don’t care! It is a long post from somebody who does not care about NZ though.

Just telling you some home truths which you are not going to get from the msm and certainly not from the apologists and supporters of the Labour government.

Imagine, 16,000 more staff in the civil service and they can screw up everything so badly with no accountability or care! Exactly like how Ardern and Hipkins behave - boasting along with their supporters of the most transparent government ever!

Up to you what you want to do - I could not care either way.

There will be those who read my postings and realised that they better plan ahead for a better future for themselves and their families - before it is too late.

[Joshuatree]

Blubber Balance is so toxic they will have to do deep beach grooming when he leaves or is forced to leave his island paradise.Maybe a coconut will knock some balance/ reason into it's head.Maybe staying off devices will mean it does havnt to bend over(how much) and parrot off whaleoil garbage.

[Balance]

So very very satisfying to have panda-nz and JT in Ignore.

[nztx]

Blubber Balance is so toxic they will have to do deep beach grooming when he leaves or is forced to leave his island paradise.Maybe a coconut will knock some balance/ reason into it's head.Maybe staying off devices will mean it does havnt to bend over(how much) and parrot off whaleoil garbage.


Only 4 months into New Govt reign after the rotten incompetent rubbish of the past 6 years got tossed and you can't even swallow the first few home truths coming out ? ;)

Why don't you take your good mate Panda and head off for a permanent holiday in Argentina - where Panda has assured all the new land of honey is situated in a sea of worse serpents like spiralling inflation and poverty like never seen here (not even after Jaxinda had a play to make it worse then mislead all about it before never mentioning the failure again) ;)

[nztx]

He's not bothering to defend this govt which is a start on the long path to redemption.

Prefers to go on about his bach and labour (particuarly jacinda).

Labour must have been pretty bad - huh ;)

Where are they now ? still sitting in the gutter trying to work out what just happened months ago
and how fast the Gingerbread man managed to skrew it up and turn them all to toast ? ;)

[davflaws]

I will be enjoying myself in my tropical beach side second home (beautiful powdery white golden sand beach kissed by crystal clear ocean waters) - going to be sad but so satisfying watching the losers and parasites in NZ fight over the diminishing economic pie.


It is really lovely in the Whitsundays. Six years of Labour have ruined our weather here. You should go this Autumn and avoid the coming winter in this once lovely country.

[Bjauck]

Just telling you some home truths which you are not going to get from the msm and certainly not from the apologists and supporters of the Labour government.

Imagine, 16,000 more staff in the civil service and they can screw up everything so badly with no accountability or care! Exactly like how Ardern and Hipkins behave - boasting along with their supporters of the most transparent government ever!

Up to you what you want to do - I could not care either way.

There will be those who read my postings and realised that they better plan ahead for a better future for themselves and their families - before it is too late.
So you say Labour didn’t care and you don’t care about NZ. You sound like a perfect fit. Maybe you can all form an enclave on your tropic beach.

Luxon must care enough to want to be PM. A difficult job. I don’t agree with all their policies but I am still hoping he does his best, and does not give up on the country as readily as some. Many countries have had dire histories and pulled through. However every person should strive to live their best life….

[Balance]

It is really lovely in the Whitsundays. Six years of Labour have ruined our weather here. You should go this Autumn and avoid the coming winter in this once lovely country.

Envy will get you nowhere as you know, davflaws.

Best you keep to your do-gooder deeds and the Maorification of NZ - what gives you the greatest pleasure in life. Basically, achieving fxxk all but worse outcomes for your victims … clients.

[mistaTea]

Asked my Personal AIssistant to give a critical review of Labour 2017 - 2023:

As a critic of the Labour government in New Zealand from 2017 to 2023, one might argue that the tenure was marked by a series of lofty promises and grand visions that ultimately fell short, leaving a trail of unmet expectations and disillusioned constituents.

The housing crisis stands as a monument to failure, with the KiwiBuild programme emblematic of well-intentioned but poorly executed policy. Promising to deliver 100,000 affordable homes but falling embarrassingly short, the initiative became a byword for bureaucratic overreach and underdelivery, leaving countless New Zealanders still grappling with unaffordability and homelessness.

Child poverty, a central pledge of the government, saw little more than marginal improvements, mocking the bold claims of transformative change. The persistent plight of vulnerable children in New Zealand serves as a stark reminder of the gap between political rhetoric and the harsh realities of those living on the margins.

Mental health services, despite significant financial injections, remained in a state of crisis, with many New Zealanders unable to access timely or effective care. The government's strategy appeared more as a patchwork of band-aid solutions rather than a coherent, long-term plan to address a deepening mental health emergency.

On climate change, the Labour government's policies were a lesson in how to pay lip service to an existential crisis. Despite declaring a climate emergency, actions taken were often criticized as too little, too late, leaving New Zealand's ambitious climate goals hanging in the balance.

Transport and infrastructure projects, including the ill-fated Auckland Light Rail, became mired in delays, disputes, and disillusionment. What was touted as transformative infrastructure development often ended up as examples of missed opportunities and wasted potential.

The government's handling of the COVID-19 pandemic, initially lauded globally, later faced scrutiny over vaccine rollouts and prolonged lockdowns that inflicted significant economic and social scars. The strategy, once seen as exemplary, increasingly appeared rigid and unresponsive to changing circumstances.

On immigration and workforce shortages, the government's policies were at best myopic, failing to foresee the critical impact on sectors such as healthcare, agriculture, and hospitality. This lack of foresight contributed to an economic strain felt by businesses and communities across the country.

Furthermore, the pace and substance of Treaty of Waitangi settlements with Māori were viewed by some as insufficient, failing to live up to the partnership's spirit and promise, thereby perpetuating long-standing grievances rather than resolving them.

In summary, the Labour government's term was a litany of missed opportunities, unfulfilled promises, and policy missteps. The gulf between the government's ambitious rhetoric and the tangible outcomes for New Zealanders has only widened, leaving a legacy of disillusionment and frustration in its wake.

[mistaTea]

Can’t do an equivalent one for the current govt because it is too recent.

[davflaws]

Envy will get you nowhere as you know, davflaws.

Best you keep to your do-gooder deeds and the Maorification of NZ - what gives you the greatest pleasure in life. Basically, achieving fxxk all but worse outcomes for your victims … clients.

Thank you for your wise advice. I am very happy where I am and I don't want to go and live in the Whitsundays.

I just wish you would.

[Balance]

Thank you for your wise advice. I am very happy where I am and I don't want to go and live in the Whitsundays.

I just wish you would.

You along with all the Labour apologists and supporters.

Your wish is like Ardern’s Kiwibuild.

You expect us to leave the likes of you & Labour/Green/Maori to continue to create victims out there without any accountability?

Six years of the BS and spin and you still cannot get enough!

Stunning!

[Baa_Baa]

Asked my Personal AIssistant to give a critical review of Labour 2017 - 2023:

[snip]

In summary, the Labour government's term was a litany of missed opportunities, unfulfilled promises, and policy missteps. The gulf between the government's ambitious rhetoric and the tangible outcomes for New Zealanders has only widened, leaving a legacy of disillusionment and frustration in its wake.

AI is very sensitive to the actual prompts you give it, for example, if you asked "what have been the failings of the Labour government of NZ", one would expect a response that you have posted.

If you asked a more nuanced question (assuming your AI can access websites), "what contrasts are there from what the Labour party of NZ promised, and said that they have achieved (here at https://www.labour.org.nz/), against what was actually achieved?"

Try that, or some variants of it. Try to make sure that your prompts don't elicit an apparently biased response, make your AI reason between promise and reality.

[mistaTea]

AI is very sensitive to the actual prompts you give it, for example, if you asked "what have been the failings of the Labour government of NZ", one would expect a response that you have posted.

If you asked a more nuanced question (assuming your AI can access websites), "what contrasts are there from what the Labour party of NZ promised, and said that they have achieved (here at https://www.labour.org.nz/), against what was actually achieved?"

Try that, or some variants of it. Try to make sure that your prompts don't elicit an apparently biased response, make your AI reason between promise and reality.

You are right, and I juggled with numerous questions about labour performance before sharing that one.

The general theme of response was the same regardless of how I asked.

Let me try your suggestion and see what it spits out.

[mistaTea]

Between 2017 and 2023, the Labour Party in New Zealand, under the leadership of Jacinda Ardern and then Chris Hipkins, made several key promises across various sectors, including housing, child poverty, healthcare, climate change, and public transport. While the party claimed achievements in these areas, there were contrasts between the promises made and the perceived outcomes or achievements. Here are some notable contrasts:

HousingPromise: Labour pledged to address the housing crisis through initiatives like KiwiBuild, aiming to build 100,000 affordable houses over a decade.

Perceived Achievement vs. Reality: KiwiBuild fell significantly short of its targets, leading to a reset of the programme. While the government made efforts to increase housing supply and reform planning laws, the crisis of affordability and availability persisted, with critics pointing out that the measures did not meet the scale of the problem.

Child PovertyPromise: Reducing child poverty was a central goal, with promises to significantly cut poverty rates through various welfare reforms and initiatives.

Perceived Achievement vs. Reality: There was some progress in reducing child poverty by certain measures; however, critics argue that the changes were not as transformative as hoped. The persistence of poverty for many children indicated that the initiatives did not go far enough to address systemic issues.

HealthcarePromise: Promised to improve access to healthcare and mental health services, including a significant increase in funding for mental health.

Perceived Achievement vs. Reality: Despite increases in funding and initiatives aimed at expanding access to services, the healthcare system continued to face challenges, including long wait times and staffing shortages. The mental health sector, in particular, struggled to meet the increased demand for services.

Climate ChangePromise: Labour promised ambitious climate action, including the Zero Carbon Bill and initiatives to reduce emissions and transition to renewable energy.

Perceived Achievement vs. Reality: While legislative progress was made, including the passing of the Zero Carbon Act, critics argued that the government's actions on the ground were not sufficient to meet its ambitious targets, with continued reliance on some fossil fuels and slow progress in reducing emissions.

Public Transport and InfrastructurePromise: Promised significant investment in public transport and infrastructure, including light rail projects in Auckland.

Perceived Achievement vs. Reality: Some infrastructure projects faced delays, cost overruns, and scaling back, notably the Auckland Light Rail project. While investments were made, the execution and delivery of these projects often fell short of initial promises, leading to dissatisfaction among those expecting transformative change.

Summary

The Labour Party made significant promises in key areas critical to New Zealanders' well-being and the country's future. While the government claimed achievements in these areas, the reality often fell short of the expectations set by their initial promises. These contrasts reflect the complexities and challenges of governing, where ambitious goals meet the practicalities of implementation, funding, and unforeseen obstacles.

[Baa_Baa]

Between 2017 and 2023, the Labour Party in New Zealand, under the leadership of Jacinda Ardern and then Chris Hipkins, made several key promises across various sectors, including housing, child poverty, healthcare, climate change, and public transport. While the party claimed achievements in these areas, there were contrasts between the promises made and the perceived outcomes or achievements. Here are some notable contrasts:

HousingPromise: Labour pledged to address the housing crisis through initiatives like KiwiBuild, aiming to build 100,000 affordable houses over a decade.

Perceived Achievement vs. Reality: KiwiBuild fell significantly short of its targets, leading to a reset of the programme. While the government made efforts to increase housing supply and reform planning laws, the crisis of affordability and availability persisted, with critics pointing out that the measures did not meet the scale of the problem.

Child PovertyPromise: Reducing child poverty was a central goal, with promises to significantly cut poverty rates through various welfare reforms and initiatives.

Perceived Achievement vs. Reality: There was some progress in reducing child poverty by certain measures; however, critics argue that the changes were not as transformative as hoped. The persistence of poverty for many children indicated that the initiatives did not go far enough to address systemic issues.

HealthcarePromise: Promised to improve access to healthcare and mental health services, including a significant increase in funding for mental health.

Perceived Achievement vs. Reality: Despite increases in funding and initiatives aimed at expanding access to services, the healthcare system continued to face challenges, including long wait times and staffing shortages. The mental health sector, in particular, struggled to meet the increased demand for services.

Climate ChangePromise: Labour promised ambitious climate action, including the Zero Carbon Bill and initiatives to reduce emissions and transition to renewable energy.

Perceived Achievement vs. Reality: While legislative progress was made, including the passing of the Zero Carbon Act, critics argued that the government's actions on the ground were not sufficient to meet its ambitious targets, with continued reliance on some fossil fuels and slow progress in reducing emissions.

Public Transport and InfrastructurePromise: Promised significant investment in public transport and infrastructure, including light rail projects in Auckland.

Perceived Achievement vs. Reality: Some infrastructure projects faced delays, cost overruns, and scaling back, notably the Auckland Light Rail project. While investments were made, the execution and delivery of these projects often fell short of initial promises, leading to dissatisfaction among those expecting transformative change.

Summary

The Labour Party made significant promises in key areas critical to New Zealanders' well-being and the country's future. While the government claimed achievements in these areas, the reality often fell short of the expectations set by their initial promises. These contrasts reflect the complexities and challenges of governing, where ambitious goals meet the practicalities of implementation, funding, and unforeseen obstacles.

I'm guessing ChatGPT4 right? pretty impressive, that it can discern between promise and reality. Try asking it to "... same question, but ... do not summarise. Provide a long-hand description of every instance with all relevant details, where the promise was made but not met or achieved by the actual implementation or outcome". You might have to include the website URL's as reference.

[mistaTea]

I'm guessing ChatGPT4 right? pretty impressive, that it can discern between promise and reality. Try asking it to "... same question, but ... do not summarise. Provide a long-hand description of every instance with all relevant details, where the promise was made but not met or achieved by the actual implementation or outcome". You might have to include the website URL's as reference.

Yes GPT-4. It is an amazing tool. GPT-5 coming out later this year I think and if things are only going to try better from here then man oh man am I excited about the future.

I will run a query for more detail, but one limitation is it will not read website if I give it a link.

It does surf the internet (using Bing) but its knowledge ends April 2023 at the moment I think.

[mistaTea]

Given the constraints of my current capabilities, including the inability to access real-time data, updates, or specific documents from external sources such as the Labour Party's website or governmental records, I'll elaborate on the known key promises and initiatives from the Labour government in New Zealand between 2017 and 2023, to the best of my ability and based on publicly available information up to April 2023.

Housing

KiwiBuild: Aimed to build 100,000 affordable homes over ten years for first home buyers.
Outcome: The programme struggled to meet its targets due to various challenges, including land acquisition, construction costs, and demand in targeted locations. By 2021, a fraction of the intended homes were completed, leading to a programme reset and refocusing on broader housing policies.

Urban Development: Legislation aimed at improving housing affordability and availability.
Outcome: Changes were made to streamline the building process and improve urban development, but housing affordability remains a critical issue, with prices continuing to rise in many areas.

Child Poverty Reduction
Families Package: Increased welfare payments and tax credits aimed at supporting low-income families.
Outcome: This initiative reportedly lifted tens of thousands of children out of poverty, though critics argue that the extent of these measures did not fully address the broader systemic issues.

School Lunch Program: Aimed to provide free lunches in schools to tackle child poverty.
Outcome: The program was rolled out, providing meals to thousands of students, but debates about scalability and long-term funding persisted.

Climate Change

Zero Carbon Bill: Set a target for New Zealand to become carbon neutral by 2050.
Outcome: Passed into law, establishing the Climate Change Commission for oversight. However, critics highlight a need for more immediate action plans and question the pace of progress toward the 2050 goal.

Green Investment Fund: Aimed to stimulate investment in sustainable projects.
Outcome: The fund was established, investing in various green initiatives, but the overall impact on reducing emissions remains under scrutiny.

Healthcare

Mental Health: Promised significant investment in mental health services.
Outcome: Funding was allocated to various mental health initiatives, though service delivery faced challenges, including staffing shortages and access issues.

Primary Healthcare: Aimed to increase access and reduce costs for primary healthcare.
Outcome: Some fees were reduced, and access improved for certain groups, but the healthcare system continues to face pressure, including from the COVID-19 pandemic.

Education

Free Tertiary Education: First year of tertiary education made free.
Outcome: Implemented, but the future of the policy became uncertain, with the government pausing its extension due to budgetary constraints.

School Infrastructure: Significant investment in school buildings and facilities.
Outcome: Investments were made, though some projects faced delays and the challenge of meeting the needs of a growing student population.

Transport and Infrastructure

Auckland Light Rail: Proposed to build light rail lines in Auckland to reduce congestion.
Outcome: The project faced significant delays, debate, and was eventually put on hold, with criticism over the planning process and cost projections.

Public Transport Investment: Increased funding for public transport across the country.
Outcome: While investments were made, the pace of improvement and expansion of services, such as bus and rail, varied regionally.

COVID-19 Response

Lockdowns and Border Closures: Implemented to control the spread of COVID-19.
Outcome: New Zealand was initially successful in controlling the virus, but the economic and social impact of prolonged lockdowns was significant.

Vaccine Rollout: Aimed to vaccinate the population against COVID-19.
Outcome: Faced initial delays but eventually covered a significant portion of the population. The strategy included measures to reach remote and vulnerable communities.

This detailed account showcases the complexities and challenges faced by the Labour government in New Zealand from 2017 to 2023. Achievements in certain areas were often counterbalanced by setbacks or criticisms regarding the scale, pace, or effectiveness of initiatives, reflecting the multifaceted nature of governance and policy implementation.

[Joshuatree]

So very very satisfying to have panda-nz and JT in Ignore.
Yeah right...TUI:)

[mistaTea]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chris-hipkins-talks-labour-in-opposition-tax-race-and-staying-on-as-leader-the-front-page/ERWX2CE67JCSLCNPU5HPQOY3V4/

Hipkins “We should be a first world country”.

LOL. Yeah mate, the whole country agrees - that’s why your lot got slammed in the last election

[mistaTea]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/home-truths-first-home-buyers-feel-interest-rate-cost-of-living-pinch/TEXYX6F2ZVDLHOZ3CWZSDLQIDU/

KiwiBuild.

So, of the 100K houses that were promised, only 2335 built with a further 1238 under construction.

So 3573 in total.

3.5% of the goal.

Ouchie wah wah.

[Panda-NZ-]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/chris-hipkins-talks-labour-in-opposition-tax-race-and-staying-on-as-leader-the-front-page/ERWX2CE67JCSLCNPU5HPQOY3V4/

Hipkins “We should be a first world country”.

LOL. Yeah mate, the whole country agrees - that’s why your lot got slammed in the last election

What policies do you think the blue/yellow/black team (combined = green bile) have that will make NZ first world?

[Balance]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/home-truths-first-home-buyers-feel-interest-rate-cost-of-living-pinch/TEXYX6F2ZVDLHOZ3CWZSDLQIDU/

KiwiBuild.

So, of the 100K houses that were promised, only 2335 built with a further 1238 under construction.

So 3573 in total.

3.5% of the goal.

Ouchie wah wah.

Promised 10,000 a year and the clowns led by Clueless Cindy & Hapless Hipkins could not even manage to deliver 5,000 in 6 years!

But of course it’s the faults of everyone else and everything except the Labour clowns.

https://liberation.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451d75d69e20240a4a91fef200d-800wi

https://liberation.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451d75d69e20240a486fdf1200d-800wi

https://pics.craiyon.com/2023-07-21/5f358c38968c4a94beebb8d7fb1c5ec4.webp

[Daytr]

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/home-truths-first-home-buyers-feel-interest-rate-cost-of-living-pinch/TEXYX6F2ZVDLHOZ3CWZSDLQIDU/

KiwiBuild.

So, of the 100K houses that were promised, only 2335 built with a further 1238 under construction.

So 3573 in total.

3.5% of the goal.

Ouchie wah wah.

Stop spinning BS circa 13k of houses were delivered. Built or bought same difference.

How many did the previous Government deliver in 9 years? How many did they promise?
Delivered less houses than they started with & promised nothing, as they did nothing.

If National had delivered at the same rate as Labour did we would have close to 20,000 additional state houses.

[mistaTea]

Stop spinning BS circa 13k of houses were delivered. Built or bought same difference.



Spinning BS? Is the article I shared wrong?

[thegreatestben]

100k was kb specifically not total yield of Kainga Ora and co. Kainga Ora didn’t exist at that point.

I actually worked for kb for 3 years as their data analyst. I administered their data capture and provided all the reporting, including formalising many of the measures.

[Daytr]

Seriously why do you waste your time commenting on these political threads then? Unless you want to undermine those who don’t think NZ is beyond help after the previous six year period. If you really don’t care about NZ, save your energy for whichever country you do care about.

Unlike a marriage you do not have to remain committed to your country in sickness until death do you part. Ask not what you can do for your country, just go to your tropical beach shangri-la and we will pray the tropical cyclones and rising sea levels don’t wash you back to our country.

Agreed, for someone who doesn't care and likes to gloat about a life he will lead elsewhere, he certainly has a lot to say for something he doesn't give a stuff about.

His continuous & repetitious slagging off of Ardern, all lefties etc is just boring. I think if he says the source of truth or can't handle the truth he will miraculously turn into Jack Nicholson.

Either way this entire thread is just littered with BS and name calling. Funny, wasn't there a few posts about school kids behaviour on here recently? I wonder who they learned that from..

[Daytr]

Spinning BS? Is the article I shared wrong?

Yes. As Labour never said they would build 100k houses themselves. I clearly remember them saying they it would be a mixture of sources, I.e the market being part of it.

Either way they were never going to deliver 100k in the time frame they promised so it was niave and a fail.

They did however deliver circa 13k whilst the previous Government reduced the number of State Houses.
No spin, no BS, those are the facts

[Balance]

Yes. As Labour never said they would build 100k houses themselves. I clearly remember them saying they it would be a mixture of sources, I.e the market being part of it.

Either way they were never going to deliver 100k in the time frame they promised so it was niave and a fail.

They did however deliver circa 13k whilst the previous Government reduced the number of State Houses.
No spin, no BS, those are the facts

So you have gone from 13,000 'built' by Labour to 13,000 'delivered' by Labour - of which many were simply a transfer of houses from existing providers (CHPs) to the government.

Facts - twisted and manipulated just like your heroine Clueless Cindy taught you to.

https://t4.ftcdn.net/jpg/00/89/12/37/240_F_89123741_jYO0zcH9OU6XpY5JCFqmprd6csf1tEiT.jp g

[thegreatestben]

The original claims were that Kiwibuild alone would do 100,000. 10,000 per year.

They changed the story as it became pretty clear that they would never be able to deliver anything like those kind of promises. It became reputation preservation and the comms teams got a lot bigger to handle the job rather than delivery teams.

[Balance]

deleted deleted

[iceman]

The original claims were that Kiwibuild alone would do 100,000. 10,000 per year.

They changed the story as it became pretty clear that they would never be able to deliver anything like those kind of promises. It became reputation preservation and the comms teams got a lot bigger to handle the job rather than delivery teams.

Correct. Just simple facts.

[Balance]

deleted deleted

[mistaTea]

So you have gone from 13,000 'built' by Labour to 13,000 'delivered' by Labour - of which many were simply a transfer of houses from existing providers (CHPs) to the government.

Facts - twisted and manipulated just like your heroine Clueless Cindy taught you to.

https://t4.ftcdn.net/jpg/00/89/12/37/240_F_89123741_jYO0zcH9OU6XpY5JCFqmprd6csf1tEiT.jp g

It’s actually shocking how he tried to manipulate the figures like that and attempted to gaslight me by saying I was the one spinning bs.


Christ Almighty.

[Daytr]

It’s actually shocking how he tried to manipulate the figures like that and attempted to gaslight me by saying I was the one spinning bs.


Christ Almighty.

Haha, get over yourself. " actually shocking" & you say I was gas lighting. Give me a break.

How many State Houses does the Government have now vs before Labour came to power.
Circa 13,000. Simple. End of.

How many houses did National deliver? Minus circa 2000 over nine years. Simple. End of.

Sorry I underestimated National’s ineptitude.
State housing stock actually reduced by over 6,000 in their nine years.
So if National had delivered pro rata what Labour did then we would have 25.5k more state houses, which would almost have solved the problem.

https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/25-09-2023/did-national-really-just-simply-sell-off-state-houses

But alas, National didn't make any promises, they just swept NZ's major inadequacies under the carpet and let someone else deal with it.
Hang on, no they didn't, they actually deliberately made the problem worse.

Genuine question.
How many more State Houses is NAFT promising to deliver?

[Balance]

It’s actually shocking how he tried to manipulate the figures like that and attempted to gaslight me by saying I was the one spinning bs.


Christ Almighty.

Daytr thinks that he is still in the days of Ardern - where a population cowed by the scaremongering and dictatorship due to Covid allowed Ardern & Labour to hoodwink and lied to NZers.

He along with the other deluded Labourites has still to wake up from the spell cast by the red witch.

[mistaTea]

Daytr thinks that he is still in the days of Ardern - where a population is cowed by the scaremongering and dictatorship due to Covid allowed Ardern & Labour to hoodwink and lied to NZers.

He along with the other deluded Labourites has still to wake up from the spell cast by the red witch.

You say true, I say thank ya.

[Daytr]

Daytr thinks that he is still in the days of Ardern - where a population cowed by the scaremongering and dictatorship due to Covid allowed Ardern & Labour to hoodwink and lied to NZers.

He along with the other deluded Labourites has still to wake up from the spell cast by the red witch.

Your imagination running wild again?
Hearing voices?
Delusional. Not a question.
You really do drop to the lowest depths imaginable.

Deleting a few posts there I see Balance.
Understandably as they were your typically rude slagging off childish BS.

I used to enjoy our interactions at times, especially when you dropped the constant reference to your arse.
However lately they have just become tedious.

[Balance]

Meanwhile, ever more NZers with skills and experience migrate to Australia and GOOD ON THEM!

They have our best wishes for a great future away from Woke Woke Land created after 6 years of Labour & the Maori Cabal.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-new-zealand-police-are-moving-to-australia-in-their-own-words/DKZ35LAVVBEKFJLMDQZ6R5WMCU/


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/WQUJPUETAJA6RD34KHIWVCIJ6A.jpg?auth=f479b98f76db6d c006c24c9555e7ed6d40e4870bdb35878c6c627ee570c2236f&width=1440&height=2086&quality=70&smart=true

[Balance]

The original claims were that Kiwibuild alone would do 100,000. 10,000 per year.

They changed the story as it became pretty clear that they would never be able to deliver anything like those kind of promises. It became reputation preservation and the comms teams got a lot bigger to handle the job rather than delivery teams.

Exactly what happened.

I had several interactions with two of the KB managers (for Auckland North Shore) when they were actively seeking out developers to build with/for them. They were accompanied by an analyst & a junior officer - to gather data?

Dealing with them was a nightmare as their brief kept changing - first they wanted as many 3 bedrooms as possible. Then, they wanted more 2 bedrooms. Then, they reverted back to 3 bedrooms or more!

I got the impression that they were simply following the edicts from Head Office with no real authority save to scope out the market. That could be one reason why they employed so many staff? Correct me if I am incorrect in my assumption.

We gave up and the development in Murrays Bay went ahead privately - did okay although the delay cost penalty interest at one stage at the end of 2% per month for 3 months! Luckily property prices were rocketing ahead so the return was still very good. Thank goodness the development did not go ahead with KB!!!!

[Balance]

Meanwhile, ever more NZers with skills and experience migrate to Australia and GOOD ON THEM!

They have our best wishes for a great future away from Woke Woke Land created after 6 years of Labour & the Maori Cabal.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/why-new-zealand-police-are-moving-to-australia-in-their-own-words/DKZ35LAVVBEKFJLMDQZ6R5WMCU/


https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/WQUJPUETAJA6RD34KHIWVCIJ6A.jpg?auth=f479b98f76db6d c006c24c9555e7ed6d40e4870bdb35878c6c627ee570c2236f&width=1440&height=2086&quality=70&smart=true

And no wonder why ever more experienced and good family NZ police officers will leave NZ for Australia.

Nurses and doctors are nuts to stay in Woke Woke land to be part of the race based health system.

A good commentary on why crime has worsen so very much during the 6 years of Labour & the Maori Cabal :

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/michael-bassett-labour-s-crime-legacy-of-the-last-three-years

"Less immediately visible, but extremely important, was the long-term effect that the Maorification policy had on the underclass that decades of easy welfare had produced.

Since the Labour Government seemed to be saying that all things Maori were excusable, the justice system went soft.

Kelvin Davis as Minister of Corrections emptied more than 30% of offenders out of prisons, arguing they didn’t need to be detained. Name suppression and a soft approach to under 18-year-olds became common in the courts.

It protected young criminals who are truanting, thus providing a protective cover for their slack parents who aren’t looking after their youngsters with the welfare payments they receive to do so.

When young hoods come before a judge, “Cultural Reports” are provided to rescue them. Legal aid lawyers are there to plead their cases, and an army of taxpayer-funded social workers is on tap to support them. Meantime, the court system at the highest level has been swept up with Maorification, and has taken to lecturing us on the virtues of tikanga, most of it of recent invention.

Nanaia Mahuta and Willie Jackson can’t believe their luck. They sowed a wind and we are reaping their whirlwind."

Yet, the Labour Party escapes from the long-term results of their crusade. In the short term they don’t need to come up with ideas about turning Maori society around so that law-breaking is no longer an acceptable way of life for so many young people.

[mistaTea]

And no wonder why ever more experienced and good family NZ police officers will leave NZ for Australia.

Nurses and doctors are nuts to stay in Woke Woke land to be part of the race based health system.

A good commentary on why crime has worsen so very much during the 6 years of Labour & the Maori Cabal :

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/michael-bassett-labour-s-crime-legacy-of-the-last-three-years

"Less immediately visible, but extremely important, was the long-term effect that the Maorification policy had on the underclass that decades of easy welfare had produced.

Since the Labour Government seemed to be saying that all things Maori were excusable, the justice system went soft.

Kelvin Davis as Minister of Corrections emptied more than 30% of offenders out of prisons, arguing they didn’t need to be detained. Name suppression and a soft approach to under 18-year-olds became common in the courts.

It protected young criminals who are truanting, thus providing a protective cover for their slack parents who aren’t looking after their youngsters with the welfare payments they receive to do so.

When young hoods come before a judge, “Cultural Reports” are provided to rescue them. Legal aid lawyers are there to plead their cases, and an army of taxpayer-funded social workers is on tap to support them. Meantime, the court system at the highest level has been swept up with Maorification, and has taken to lecturing us on the virtues of tikanga, most of it of recent invention.

Nanaia Mahuta and Willie Jackson can’t believe their luck. They sowed a wind and we are reaping their whirlwind."

Yet, the Labour Party escapes from the long-term results of their crusade. In the short term they don’t need to come up with ideas about turning Maori society around so that law-breaking is no longer an acceptable way of life for so many young people.

Yes lots more to leave for Aussie and who could blame them.

So we will have to double down on immigration to replace them with foreigners.

Lucky Filipino women are easy on the eye, because we are gonna need a lot more of them now!

[Daytr]

And no wonder why ever more NZ police officers will laeve NZ for Australia.

A good commentary on why crime has worsen so very much during the 6 years of Labour & the Maori Cabal :

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/michael-bassett-labour-s-crime-legacy-of-the-last-three-years

"Less immediately visible, but extremely important, was the long-term effect that the Maorification policy had on the underclass that decades of easy welfare had produced.

Since the Labour Government seemed to be saying that all things Maori were excusable, the justice system went soft.

Kelvin Davis as Minister of Corrections emptied more than 30% of offenders out of prisons, arguing they didn’t need to be detained. Name suppression and a soft approach to under 18-year-olds became common in the courts.

It protected young criminals who are truanting, thus providing a protective cover for their slack parents who aren’t looking after their youngsters with the welfare payments they receive to do so.

When young hoods come before a judge, “Cultural Reports” are provided to rescue them. Legal aid lawyers are there to plead their cases, and an army of taxpayer-funded social workers is on tap to support them. Meantime, the court system at the highest level has been swept up with Maorification, and has taken to lecturing us on the virtues of tikanga, most of it of recent invention.

Nanaia Mahuta and Willie Jackson can’t believe their luck. They sowed a wind and we are reaping their whirlwind."

Yet, the Labour Party escapes from the long-term results of their crusade. In the short term they don’t need to come up with ideas about turning Maori society around so that law-breaking is no longer an acceptable way of life for so many young people.

All you are displaying is a lack of faith in the new Government. You are saying there is no hope, so you have already made up your mind that NAFT are useless.

I want to at least give people a chance.
I hope NAFT can deliver for NZ and in some areas they are making a start.
Other areas they want to take us backward.

One think they could learn to do is be less divisive. Ardern is accused of that all the time when in fact she was trying to save lives during a Pandemic and it was those who wouldn't make a short term sacrifice for others that created division.

The covert Maori agenda imo did create unnecessary division and like all things, if there is overreach in one direction, the pendulum swings back equally and that's what we are seeing from the likes of Seymour.

[iceman]

All you are displaying is a lack of faith in the new Government. You are saying there is no hope, so you have already made up your mind that NAFT are useless.

I want to at least give people a chance.
I hope NAFT can deliver for NZ and in some areas they are making a start.
Other areas they want to take us backward.

One think they could learn to do is be less divisive. Ardern is accused of that all the time when in fact she was trying to save lives during a Pandemic and it was those who wouldn't make a short term sacrifice for others that created division.

The covert Maori agenda imo did create unnecessary division and like all things, if there is overreach in one direction, the pendulum swings back equally and that's what we are seeing from the likes of Seymour.

Once you stop comments like the one highlighted above, you have more chance of being taken seriously. A majority of the population saw through that sort of BS 3 years ago and moved on.

[mistaTea]

One think they could learn to do is be less divisive. Ardern is accused of that all the time when in fact she was trying to save lives during a Pandemic and it was those who wouldn't make a short term sacrifice for others that created division.



Short term sacrifices my arse.

NZers on the bottom rung will be feeling the repercussions of the economic impacts to the endless lockdowns for many years to come. That will have its own problems with crime, domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse.

But let’s also not forget how many people were not able to say goodbye properly to dying loved ones. Those poor souls were ‘lucky’ to get a Zoom call and then had to die on their own with strangers.

Short term sacrifices? “You people” really are the most wicked.

[Bjauck]

Short term sacrifices my arse.

NZers on the bottom rung will be feeling the repercussions of the economic impacts to the endless lockdowns for many years to come. They will have its own problems with crime, domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse.

But let’s now also forget how many people were not able to say goodbye properly to dying loved ones. Those poor souls were ‘lucky’ to get a Zoom call and then had to die on their own with strangers.

Short term sacrifices? “You people” really are the most wicked. The sacrifices by some were certainly not short term, and were certainly not evenly borne. Some were expected to be the cannon fodder. A lockdown of some sort was probably necessary to allow our underfunded basic public health to cope with the first surge. It was hastily conceived and implemented. It is obvious that some bore a heavy and long lasting burden.

Measures to cope with the low interest rate economic response were deficient and ramifications will be felt for many years.

[Bjauck]

Once you stop comments like the one highlighted above, you have more chance of being taken seriously. A majority of the population saw through that sort of BS 3 years ago and moved on.
It was an otherwise reasonable post undone by not recognising the long term and/or divisive effects of many of the Covid measures.

[Bjauck]

All you are displaying is a lack of faith in the new Government. You are saying there is no hope, so you have already made up your mind that NAFT are useless.

I want to at least give people a chance.
I hope NAFT can deliver for NZ and in some areas they are making a start.
Other areas they want to take us backward.

One think they could learn to do is be less divisive. Ardern is accused of that all the time when in fact she was trying to save lives during a Pandemic and it was those who wouldn't make a short term sacrifice for others that created division.

The covert Maori agenda imo did create unnecessary division and like all things, if there is overreach in one direction, the pendulum swings back equally and that's what we are seeing from the likes of Seymour.
Please don’t dismiss the sacrifIces made by some as being short term. To this day the effect is felt by me, by us, of having a family member alone and confused in a short staffed hospital and denied visitors. And there are those whose businessses and jobs were seriously impacted with mental health effects, even if there was some compo.

Also the sacrifices of those who did not want to be vaccinated, was in effect a fight imposed upon them by the government covid response, no matter how medically justified.

[dobby41]

Yes lots more to leave for Aussie and who could blame them.

So we will have to double down on immigration to replace them with foreigners.

Lucky Filipino women are easy on the eye, because we are gonna need a lot more of them now!

The govt seems to agree that people have better options overseas than NZ run by them.
The Minister said that there would be a brain drain.

[Balance]

Michael Bassett's opinion piece is well worthwhile posting in full for all to read and digest carefully - huge challenge ahead for NZ as the skilled, experienced and the young leave NZ after 6 years of crap from Labour.

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/michael-bassett-labour-s-crime-legacy-of-the-last-three-years

Maorification of NZ and its disastrous impact & consequences for NZ :

The Labour Government lost the 2023 election when its support halved from 2020. It deserved to lose on economic grounds alone :

Covid lockdowns that went beyond the prudent and wrecked livelihoods in the name of saving lives;

an orgy of careless spending of borrowed money;

and

a failure to ensure that the 16,000 extra bureaucrats improved crucial services in meaningful ways; plus sloppily handled infrastructure plans, were all counts against Jacinda Ardern, Grant Robertson and Chris Hipkins.

But this is only part of the case against that government. We are still experiencing aftershocks from the Maorification policy that Nanaia Mahuta and Willie Jackson foisted on the ministry, starting on the day the results of the 2020 election made it clear that Winston Peters’ steadying influence was gone from the cabinet table. The He Puapua plan secretly hatched by Mahuta came to light. It aimed at Maori control of New Zealand by 2040. A wave of promoting everything Maori swept across the country at the Beehive’s behest. State agencies were renamed with titles dreamt up by the Maori Language Commission; district health boards were dis-established and replaced by a centralised service armed with a Maori veto; bogus, but compulsory, New Zealand history began to be taught in schools, reinforced with grossly misleading aide-memoires for students like the School Journal cartoon presentation on the Treaty of Waitangi. This was sheer propaganda produced by people with an axe to grind and no serious qualifications in history. Both TV One and Radio New Zealand outdid each other in a competition among woke journalists to display their new skills at Te Reo. Bonuses were paid to bureaucrats who could spout Maori that the rest of us couldn’t understand. Aotearoa became the country’s new name, despite the fact that it was a relatively recent name, and meant for the North Island. The mainstream media swung into gear with The New Zealand Herald banning criticism of the government’s Maorification policies from its pages.



Less immediately visible, but extremely important, was the long-term effect that the Maorification policy had on the underclass that decades of easy welfare had produced. Since the Labour Government seemed to be saying that all things Maori were excusable, the justice system went soft. Kelvin Davis as Minister of Corrections emptied more than 30% of offenders out of prisons, arguing they didn’t need to be detained. Name suppression and a soft approach to under 18-year-olds became common in the courts. It protected young criminals who are truanting, thus providing a protective cover for their slack parents who aren’t looking after their youngsters with the welfare payments they receive to do so. When young hoods come before a judge, “Cultural Reports” are provided to rescue them. Legal aid lawyers are there to plead their cases, and an army of taxpayer-funded social workers is on tap to support them. Meantime, the court system at the highest level has been swept up with Maorification, and has taken to lecturing us on the virtues of tikanga, most of it of recent invention. Nanaia Mahuta and Willie Jackson can’t believe their luck. They sowed a wind and we are reaping their whirlwind.



Yet, the Labour Party escapes from the long-term results of their crusade. In the short term they don’t need to come up with ideas about turning Maori society around so that law-breaking is no longer an acceptable way of life for so many young people. However, Labour needs to do a lot more work than simply devising new ways to tax the law-abiding segment of society and hoping the public will overlook their shocking dereliction of duty over the last three years. Those wet fish from the Labour caucus who rush to be included in photos with Chippy have a lot of hard work to do before the public can trust them anywhere near the Treasury benches again.



Maorification has to be wound back. We aren’t a country of two cultures, but many. Proselytizing the notion that Maori are more than first settlers, and therefore entitled to extra rights and respect, must stop. Education might be a good place to start. As Sir Apirana Ngata always said, it was the key to Maori advancement. And it has to be done in an orderly fashion. Last week’s report that Kiwi school students were amongst the worst-behaved kids in the OECD, and that behaviour has significantly worsened over the last two years, is scary. Pinching others’ property and inflicting serious physical harm on fellow students, must be punished. Just standing students down from school won’t fix anything. Parents need to be held to account, especially since we pay them via the benefits they receive to look after their children. Again, details from schools about young offenders need to be married to the welfare benefits register so that errant parents are made to realise there are material costs if they fail to perform their duties.

Fixing our schools goes way beyond this. More and better-trained teachers are necessary along with security guards at schools. The whole curriculum needs an overhaul. Erica Stanford desperately needs a more enlightened head of her ministry than Iona Holsted who has been at the centre of Maorification and the curriculum stuff-ups of recent years and will only be a drag on any efforts at reform.

There’s a huge amount of work to be done. Is the current ministry up to the challenge?

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1691612681811-D9LMARSVE48IZHOKQCOA/Organ+grinders.jpg?format=500w

[Aaron]

Can't change the past, you can only learn from it.

Good to see waste being cut from the public service, and a stop to the separatist race based policy,but further back you (Balance) in the thread express concern at the number of productive people leaving the country.

Do you think doubling the population by 2060 will make NZ a better place? Different yes, but better?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/who-wins-from-doubling-aucklands-population-again-matthew-hooton/OUMJ7FSSW5DRLKACSHBJX4KBIY/

Part of the reason NZ cannot pay police more is that tax cuts have to be funded from somewhere. Blindly pushing ahead with tax cuts when there are useful things to spend it on.

The form of the tax cuts, although I disagree with the interest deductiblity and complicated rules around residential property investment, first home buyers were starting to outnumber investors and "investors" could still get full deductibility if they actually built a house to rent rather than buying an existing asset.

Time to let the Labour debacle go, and question whether our current government is doing the right thing. What have they or will they do to make NZ attractive for young people? Or will we just continue to make NZ a happy place for old people as the IMF survey suggests.

https://mishtalk.com/economics/us-drop-to-number-23-in-the-world-happiness-report/

[Balance]

Can't change the past, you can only learn from it.

Good to see waste being cut from the public service, and a stop to the separatist race based policy,but further back you (Balance) in the thread express concern at the number of productive people leaving the country.



The past is the past but when past policies continue to feature strongly in undermining the fabric of NZ as a society and country, then the policies need to be reversed and changed.

The cancer of racial, social and economic divisions cultivated and promoted by Labour & the Maori Cabal is so wide-spread and ingrained that the new government imo will be unable to do anything. Total lack of political will to reverse the divisive policies.

Spoke to my Filipino neighbours (nurses on work visa) and they are not stupid or ignorant about what's happening in NZ. They can see the health system in crisis and they can also see how divisive the race based system is. So they will do their 3 years under the work visa, get their PR and then NZ citizenship 2 years after that. Then, it's off to Australia for them - just as my ex-colleague (hubby is a nurse) & family who left NZ and have happily settled in Brisbane. They love it there - better pay, better work conditions and they welcomed their second child there. So very pleased and happy for them.

NZ is now but a transit point for migrant workers who will mostly follow the same routine imo - and who can blame them when they see their NZ colleagues getting the heck out of NZ.

[mistaTea]

The past is the past but when past policies continue to feature strongly in undermining the fabric of NZ as a society and country, then the policies need to be reversed and changed.

The cancer of racial, social and economic divisions cultivated and promoted by Labour & the Maori Cabal is so wide-spread and ingrained that the new government imo will be unable to do anything. Total lack of political will to reverse the divisive policies.

Spoke to my Filipino neighbours (nurses on work visa) and they are not stupid or ignorant about what's happening in NZ. They can see the health system in crisis and they can also see how divisive the race based system is. So they will do their 3 years under the work visa, get their PR and then NZ citizenship 2 years after that. Then, it's off to Australia for them - just as my ex-colleague (hubby is a nurse) & family who left NZ and have happily settled in Brisbane. They love it there - better pay, better work conditions and they welcomed their second child there. So very pleased and happy for them.

NZ is now but a transit point for migrant workers who will mostly follow the same routine imo - and who can blame them when they see their NZ colleagues getting the heck out of NZ.

Can’t argue with that. I think Brisbane would be an awesome place to live for the balance between opportunity and lifestyle. My wife can’t handle the heat though, so that’s the end of that! Ha!

One thing I will add though is that it is not ALL roses.

As more and more people (quite understandably) flock to Melbourne and Brisbane, competition for jobs increases. You are up against other very skilled people. If you are good at what you do, you will get a job but it may take longer than you think.

Great for employers over there!

On the flip side, I have found in my line of work that the competition is much less so I am able to contract around without too much issue getting a new gig. There is still competition, but if I am up against a lot if freshies the advantage is mine even if some these guys have better technical skills in some areas because they cannot communicate as well as I can, or understand the culture etc.

So not everyone is a ‘loser’ with people heading overseas. And those that do leave will see that the grass is not quite as green over there as they imagine.

[Daytr]

Please don’t dismiss the sacrifIces made by some as being short term. To this day the effect is felt by me, by us, of having a family member alone and confused in a short staffed hospital and denied visitors. And there are those whose businessses and jobs were seriously impacted with mental health effects, even if there was some compo.

Also the sacrifices of those who did not want to be vaccinated, was in effect a fight imposed upon them by the government covid response, no matter how medically justified.

I was referring to getting vaccinated and not mixing in the hundreds or thousands in protests during a global pandemic. Nothing else.
It wasn't the Government's fault people chose not to get vaccinated it was their ignorant & selfish choice, a choice that had consequences, to keep the wider population safe.
Yes there was overreach, however that's much easier to say in hindsight.

My own business was seriously impacted and still is from the impacts of high interest rates and Cyclone Gabriele. The Government provided massive subsidies, but unfortunately as like many parts of the world experienced & some were going to fail. Of course I have sympathy for those who brunted the biggest losses / costs being it personal or business but there are always going to be casualties when it comes to such major events, be them health, natural disasters etc.

NZ is recognized as having one of the best responses to the pandemic globally. So much so other places like Australia copied what we were doing. Remember Melbourne and what they went through before they got tough? New York? Italy?

We had some of the shortest lockdowns compared to most Western countries as well.
Hard as it was for some people and individual circumstances, it's the wider population the Government had to protect, as well as the health system. And no health system is ready to cope with a once in 100 year event like Covid.

What would have been the sacrifice if we had let Covid become rampant? Hospitals overloaded just like other countries who didn't take severe measures quick enough.

We have one of the lowest debt ratios in the OECD and yet we act like we can't afford basic humane funding.

Sure cut back on the bloated bureaucracy that Labour created but we are hardly in dire straits from a Government debt perspective.

[Daytr]

Once you stop comments like the one highlighted above, you have more chance of being taken seriously. A majority of the population saw through that sort of BS 3 years ago and moved on.

Iceman, the day I get taken seriously by you will be the day I question myself thoroughly. I don't expect to be taken seriously by the likes of you & I don't look for admiration or pats on the back, it sounds like something that's important to you, not me.
Would I be correct in assuming you are an ACT supporter? Or the me first & @#$% the rest party. Forgive me if I have got that wrong, NZF?

Actually a little over 3 years ago Labour got elected in a landslide, the first party to win an outright majority since MMP again.
Labour managed the spread of Covid very well and NZ has one of the best responses globally.

The real issues came when transitioning out of crisis mode as people were over it, we had vaccines if only we had all taken them, and the rest of the world was moving on. Labour were far too slow to change gears, some of that was due to the global demand for vaccines & as NZ wasn't suffering yhe same fatalities as other parts of the world we weren't a priority.


Short term sacrifices my arse.

NZers on the bottom rung will be feeling the repercussions of the economic impacts to the endless lockdowns for many years to come. That will have its own problems with crime, domestic violence, drug and alcohol abuse.

But let’s also not forget how many people were not able to say goodbye properly to dying loved ones. Those poor souls were ‘lucky’ to get a Zoom call and then had to die on their own with strangers.

Short term sacrifices? “You people” really are the most wicked.

What endless lockdowns? Seriously?
People in Europe, parts of Australia, the UK and many other places had much, much longer lockdowns than we did.

Yes some paid a higher price than others, would you rather that a hell of a lot more people paid the ultimatethat price as well by having deaths enmasse such as happened overseas?

It was an event that hadn't occurred in a 100 years. It was a global event that overloaded hospitals overseas. Did Labour get everything right? Of course not, but they did save thousands of lives.

[Bjauck]

…
NZ is recognized as having one of the best responses to the pandemic globally. So much so other places like Australia copied what we were doing. Remember Melbourne and what they went through before they got tough? New York? Italy?

We had some of the shortest lockdowns compared to most Western countries as well.
Hard as it was for some people and individual circumstances, it's the wider population the Government had to protect, as well as the health system. And no health system is ready to cope with a once in 100 year event like Covid.

What would have been the sacrifice if we had let Covid become rampant? Hospitals overloaded just like other countries who didn't take severe measures quick enough.….
The response could be separated into initial pandemic, and latter pandemic, health and economic. So basically four separate aspects. While the initial health response was internationally commended, it seems flippant to dismiss the sacrifices requested to be of short term significance. The result of the economic response has had long term ramifications too.

Obviously whichever party had been in power during the pandemic would have suffered blowback from the consequences of having to make speedy and difficult decisions deeply affecting lives. Fwiw, I think we had the right party in government during the initial health response part of the pandemic. To an extent as the pandemic spread around the World we did have time to learn from others’ experiences.

[Panda-NZ-]

Can’t argue with that. I think Brisbane would be an awesome place to live for the balance between opportunity and lifestyle. My wife can’t handle the heat though, so that’s the end of that! Ha!

Melbourne and Sydney are real powerhouses for the australian finance sector.

You would think NZ would be with our "free market, low tax and minimal regulation" credentials. Though Auckland is still a run-down back office.

[nztx]

Melbourne and Sydney are real powerhouses for the finance sector.

You would think we would be with the "free market, low tax and minimal regulation" aspect. Though Auckland is a run-down back office.


Cripes - was Argentina a major memory loss moment in the land of the Panda then ? ;)

[Panda-NZ-]

We'll be on that track once the inflationary tax cuts come though.

Maybe not argentina but a credit downgrade is on the cards for little old NZ.

[mistaTea]

We'll be on that track once the inflationary tax cuts come though.

Maybe not argentina but a credit downgrade is on the cards for little old NZ.

I suspect the tax cuts will be smaller than what they campaigned on.

They (politically) have to deliver something now.

But they are still in the phase as a new govt where they can blame Labour for everything. So Nicola will announce a modest tax cut I think with a spiel about how things were far worse than her worst nightmare due to the legacy or labour etc.

And she will be right.

And life will go on. I don't think we will have to worry about being like Zimbabwe any time soon.

[Daytr]

The response could be separated into initial pandemic, and latter pandemic, health and economic. So basically four separate aspects. While the initial health response was internationally commended, it seems flippant to dismiss the sacrifices requested to be of short term significance. The result of the economic response has had long term ramifications too.

Obviously whichever party had been in power during the pandemic would have suffered blowback from the consequences of having to make speedy and difficult decisions deeply affecting lives. Fwiw, I think we had the right party in government during the initial health response part of the pandemic. To an extent as the pandemic spread around the World we did have time to learn from others’ experiences.

That seems like a reasonable summary.
Re the economic response what else do you think should have been done?

[Panda-NZ-]

And life will go on. I don't think we will have to worry about being like Zimbabwe any time soon.

NZ... New Zimbabwe? :p

[Ferg]

Interesting website Balance.

Another interesting article on that site:

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/don-brash-terminated-for-saying-no-to-cultural-training-what-s-next
where they talk about people potentially losing their jobs for refusing to partake in cultural brainwashing/training, in particular the real estate agent that was in the news recently.

[Balance]

Interesting website Balance.

Another interesting article on that site:

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/don-brash-terminated-for-saying-no-to-cultural-training-what-s-next
where they talk about people potentially losing their jobs for refusing to partake in cultural brainwashing/training, in particular the real estate agent that was in the news recently.

Woke woke land - that’s what NZ has become after 6 years of Ardern, Hipkins, the Maori Cabal & Labour.

With nothing to show but racial, social and economic divisions.

And $90 billion of increased debts and cost of living crises on all fronts.

Too late now imo for any government to stop the slide to 2nd world status - matter of slowing down the slide.

The best, brightest and young NZers will find Australia most welcoming and they in turn, are very fortunate that there’s a big country with excellent economic & social depth and breadth to allow them to prosper and be successful.

Fxxk Woke Woke land - leave it to the wokesters, parasites, the losers and the beneficiaries.

[Daytr]

Woke woke land - that’s what NZ has become after 6 years of Ardern, Hipkins, the Maori Cabal & Labour.

With nothing to show but racial, social and economic divisions.

And $90 billion of increased debts and cost of living crises on all fronts.

Too late now imo for any government to stop the slide to 2nd world status - matter of slowing down the slide.

The best, brightest and young NZers will find Australia most welcoming and they in turn, are very fortunate that there’s a big country with excellent economic & social depth and breadth to allow them to prosper and be successful.

Fxxk Woke Woke land - leave it to the wokesters, parasites, the losers and the beneficiaries.

You keep repeating yourself and obsessing with the past. It's not only tedious, it's on the wrong thread and is an indication of many things but certainly being a fixation.

[nztx]

We'll be on that track once the inflationary tax cuts come though.

Maybe not argentina but a credit downgrade is on the cards for little old NZ.

Well would have been harsher .. like a black budget if the fat boy was still steering the skids into the ditch
and dodging more deep pot holes than the whole clueless crew of Comrades had had hot dinners ;)

[iceman]

It was an otherwise reasonable post undone by not recognising the long term and/or divisive effects of many of the Covid measures.

Agree completely

[Balance]

You keep repeating yourself and obsessing with the past. It's not only tedious, it's on the wrong thread and is an indication of many things but certainly being a fixation.

Just in case your comprehension is not up to scratch - let me repeat what’s happening in NZ TODAY.

Aotearoa is Woke Woke land today - thanks to the last 6 years.

I do not see any likelihood that the woke cancer is going to be treated and successfully got rid off - so ingrained and so widespread it is right throughout Aotearoa.

All that the new government can do is slow the cancer down as the will is not there to undertake radical surgery to remove the cancer and subject the country to a dose of chemotherapy to stave off the cancer.

Problem with the Labourites is that they would NZers to forget what brought NZ to the state of no return it is in today.

I am simply stating the obvious - if you have ambition, skill, experience and/or is young, go to where you will be able to make the best of your abilities for you and your families. Australia is where our bright and best are heading - join them. Don’t waste your lives fighting against the race, social & economic divisions on NZ. The racial & social divisions are going to get worse as NZ slides to 2nd world status.

Fxxk Woke Woke land - go to where there is a real future.

[777]

It is getting bad Balance when even you are calling NZ Aotearoa.

[mistaTea]

It is getting bad Balance when even you are calling NZ Aotearoa.

I, too was shocked.

Things are more grim than I realised.

[Balance]

It is getting bad Balance when even you are calling NZ Aotearoa.

What and how else would one call Woke Woke land? Aotearoa suits Woke Woke land so well, don't you think?

Good example below which shows just how hypocritical the woke leftists are. They screamed hate crime when a rainbow crossing was painted over and then, one of them proceeded to provoke Destiny Church members by hoisting a rainbow flag in front of the church. Is that not a hate crime - purposefully insulting the religious beliefs of another group - during the holiest time (Easter) of the Christian faith.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350231288/destiny-church-brands-man-who-claims-he-was-assaulted-members-mischief-maker

"A man has claimed he was assaulted after hanging a rainbow flag in a tree outside Destiny Church - but the Church says the man is “just mischief-making”. Police were called to a report of an assault on Druces Rd in Wiri, South Auckland shortly before 4.30am on Easter Sunday. According to a police spokesperson, initial inquiries suggested there was an “altercation” between a man and two occupants of a Druces Rd property after the man was seen hanging a flag in a tree."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

As for the hate crime of someone painting over the rainbow crossing, here's another view :

https://thebfd.co.nz/2024/03/31/so-it-is-about-acceptance-huh/

"The argument for the crossings as far as I know is that they are there to make the “rainbow” community feel accepted, as if anyone apart from the wokesters in Auckland Council give a crap. But, as I wrote about last week, only one in five autistic people feel accepted. So where are the welcoming crossings for them? And remember there are at least 96,000 people with autism in New Zealand, and that’s not counting those undiagnosed. That’s a whole lot more than those who can’t make up their mind what gender they are."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

And the leftist MSM is still out with their begging bowls even as the inevitable stares them in their woke faces.

Most appropriate cartoon from NZ Herald* resident cartoonist, in truth showing how the msm is begging for $$$$ from the government :

Current Media Minister playing the violin to the tunes of the $55m Labour government Media Bribe Fund.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/L6RBVQO4LZATFFH5VKQOCSYBHM.JPG?auth=b565aaabc1eac1 fb32632b927e69f4f238da61acca406b428648ecf06a0451c7&width=1440&height=756&quality=70&smart=true

*Remember the NZ Herald banned any criticism of the Maorification of NZ as part of its deal to obtain $$$$ from the $55m media bribe bribe fund.

[mistaTea]

What and how else would one call Woke Woke land? Aotearoa suits Woke Woke land so well, don't you think?

Good example below which shows just how hypocritical the woke leftists are. They screamed hate crime when a rainbow crossing was painted over and then, one of them proceeded to provoke Destiny Church members by hoisting a rainbow flag in front of the church. Is that not a hate crime - purposefully insulting the religious beliefs of another group - during the holiest time (Easter) of the Christian faith.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350231288/destiny-church-brands-man-who-claims-he-was-assaulted-members-mischief-maker

"A man has claimed he was assaulted after hanging a rainbow flag in a tree outside Destiny Church - but the Church says the man is “just mischief-making”. Police were called to a report of an assault on Druces Rd in Wiri, South Auckland shortly before 4.30am on Easter Sunday. According to a police spokesperson, initial inquiries suggested there was an “altercation” between a man and two occupants of a Druces Rd property after the man was seen hanging a flag in a tree."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

As for the hate crime of someone painting over the rainbow crossing, here's another view :

https://thebfd.co.nz/2024/03/31/so-it-is-about-acceptance-huh/

"The argument for the crossings as far as I know is that they are there to make the “rainbow” community feel accepted, as if anyone apart from the wokesters in Auckland Council give a crap. But, as I wrote about last week, only one in five autistic people feel accepted. So where are the welcoming crossings for them? And remember there are at least 96,000 people with autism in New Zealand, and that’s not counting those undiagnosed. That’s a whole lot more than those who can’t make up their mind what gender they are."

So far as ‘hate crime’ goes I am not aware of NZ having any laws against ‘hate crime’.

The previous govt talked about introducing something, but nothing ever actually came of it so far as I am aware. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Defining a ‘hate crime’ into something that is legally enforceable is very hard. And the bar needs to be very very high for stuff like that.

So when the pedestrian crossing was painted over and the cops said they were treating it as a ‘hate crime’ wtf were they on about? There is currently no such thing in NZ.

An act of vandalism? Sure. But this nonsense about hate crimes was just the woke ripping the ring right out of it as usual.

[Balance]

So far as ‘hate crime’ goes I am not aware of NZ having any laws against ‘hate crime’.

The previous govt talked about introducing something, but nothing ever actually came of it so far as I am aware. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Defining a ‘hate crime’ into something that is legally enforceable is very hard. And the bar needs to be very very high for stuff like that.

So when the pedestrian crossing was painted over and the cops said they were treating it as a ‘hate crime’ wtf were they on about? There is currently no such thing in NZ.

An act of vandalism? Sure. But this nonsense about hate crimes was just the woke ripping the ring right out of it as usual.

Why the country is now Aoteraoa, Woke Woke land. Cops have nothing better to do than to run around being PC.

[Daytr]

Just in case your comprehension is not up to scratch - let me repeat what’s happening in NZ TODAY.

Aotearoa is Woke Woke land today - thanks to the last 6 years.

I do not see any likelihood that the woke cancer is going to be treated and successfully got rid off - so ingrained and so widespread it is right throughout Aotearoa.

All that the new government can do is slow the cancer down as the will is not there to undertake radical surgery to remove the cancer and subject the country to a dose of chemotherapy to stave off the cancer.

Problem with the Labourites is that they would NZers to forget what brought NZ to the state of no return it is in today.

I am simply stating the obvious - if you have ambition, skill, experience and/or is young, go to where you will be able to make the best of your abilities for you and your families. Australia is where our bright and best are heading - join them. Don’t waste your lives fighting against the race, social & economic divisions on NZ. The racial & social divisions are going to get worse as NZ slides to 2nd world status.

Fxxk Woke Woke land - go to where there is a real future.

I can comprehend that you are a misery guts who needs to move on.

I love being back in NZ after a career overseas.
Yep, there is plenty to fix, but there always has been. There's plenty to fix in most countries around the world.

I'm just going to switch you offer. If all you can offer is negativity, you aren't worth engaging with. Life is too short to be dragged down by pessimists.

[Bjauck]

That seems like a reasonable summary.
Re the economic response what else do you think should have been done?
It is easier for me to criticise than to offer a workable alternative. I admit that. Other countries tried to dampen the effect of low interest rates on making wealth disparities worse especially with regards to house prices. What was supposed to help business, inevitably inflated NZ house prices.

[Bjauck]

Woke woke land - that’s what NZ has become after 6 years of Ardern, Hipkins, the Maori Cabal & Labour.

With nothing to show but racial, social and economic divisions.

And $90 billion of increased debts and cost of living crises on all fronts.

Too late now imo for any government to stop the slide to 2nd world status - matter of slowing down the slide.

The best, brightest and young NZers will find Australia most welcoming and they in turn, are very fortunate that there’s a big country with excellent economic & social depth and breadth to allow them to prosper and be successful.

Fxxk Woke Woke land - leave it to the wokesters, parasites, the losers and the beneficiaries. 2nd world = communist countries. Surely Cluxon won’t allow that.

K Rd is a big centre along with Ponsonby Rd for the liberal, woke and gender fluid part of Auckland. Definitely makes good commercial sense to be welcoming. My bet is that vandals had to drive into the area to demonstrate their intolerance. I am not sure if the autistic people in the area feel overlooked.

You must be the most defeatist poster on the thread. After just a six year woke government you want to retreat ranting and raving into the tropic jungle like a lost WW2 Japanese soldier in the 1950’s!

[dobby41]

I suspect the tax cuts will be smaller than what they campaigned on.

They (politically) have to deliver something now.

They campaigned on a lie (that we could afford tax cuts and they would be delivered by savings and extra income).
They knew it was a lie and everyone told them so but 'they know numbers' and their numbers were 'rock solid'.
So their ideology says that they have to follow through even if it is a bad idea.

Honesty would have them say that they got it wrong. They are already trying to say that the books are worse than they thought even though the books are basically the same as the PERFU taking into account the reduction in economic activity that they are spearheading.

[Daytr]

I was pleasantly surprised to see how well Luxon came across on NZB this morning. Mind you Mike gives anyone from the right a much easier ride than anyone from the left.

Luxon just needs to reign in the other two heads of the three headed monster.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/spending-cuts-without-full-austerity-christopher-luxon-reveals-his-top-priorities-for-the-coming-months/6PEL3E5B2BAA7D6LQC3XBMUYVM/

[Panda-NZ-]

I was pleasantly surprised to see how well Luxon came across on NZB this morning. Mind you Mike gives anyone from the right a much easier ride than anyone from the left.


He comes armed with a powerpoint presentation this time. :cool:

[Bjauck]

What and how else would one call Woke Woke land? Aotearoa suits Woke Woke land so well, don't you think?

Good example below which shows just how hypocritical the woke leftists are. They screamed hate crime when a rainbow crossing was painted over and then, one of them proceeded to provoke Destiny Church members by hoisting a rainbow flag in front of the church. Is that not a hate crime - purposefully insulting the religious beliefs of another group - during the holiest time (Easter) of the Christian faith.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350231288/destiny-church-brands-man-who-claims-he-was-assaulted-members-mischief-maker

"A man has claimed he was assaulted after hanging a rainbow flag in a tree outside Destiny Church - but the Church says the man is “just mischief-making”. Police were called to a report of an assault on Druces Rd in Wiri, South Auckland shortly before 4.30am on Easter Sunday. According to a police spokesperson, initial inquiries suggested there was an “altercation” between a man and two occupants of a Druces Rd property after the man was seen hanging a flag in a tree."
…
Oh dear I thought one of the fundamental messages from the Christian Easter was to love one’s enemies, and to turn the other cheek to insult.

What is wrong about flying a rainbow flag in a public place? Sure. between dusk and dawn flags should be lowered. Anyway, if the Destiny Church thinks that flag represents those who sin (which is everyone after all,) Jesus said sinners should be loved. Others should be loved not hated.

[Bjauck]

St Mathew-in-the-city Church incorporates rainbow colours in its logo. Of course the Rainbow also symbolises the promise made by God after the flood.
Flying a rainbow flag was surely a message of love.

https://www.stmatthews.nz/single-post/2017/09/23/st-matthews-new-logo

[davflaws]

You must be the most defeatist poster on the thread. After just a six year woke government you want to retreat ranting and raving into the tropic jungle like a lost WW2 Japanese soldier in the 1950’s!

Don't discourage him. The Whitsundays are calling Balance.

Let's wish him well as he contemplates the white sand and sparkling water, and enjoys the spectacle of the woke 'do gooders' fighting with the parasites, losers, and beneficiaries (there may be some overlap here) as our few remaining resources are dissipated by wasteful spending and this sh!thole country sinks further into the woke collectivist swamp.

I'm sure that Balance's personal qualities - his warmth, tolerance, friendly attitude, love of humanity, sympathy for other people less fortunate, and 'milk of human kindness by the quart in every vein' will endear him to the locals over there.

He will certainly find it easy to make new friends and will live out his remaining years surrounded by love, affection,and warm and close human relationships.

[Panda-NZ-]

Mental health minister scrambles as Suicide Prevention Office is caught in spending cuts directive.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350235161/mental-health-minister-scrambles-suicide-prevention-office-caught-cuts

All this effort to be inhumane, when they can simply put in a CGT or cancel the landlord tax cuts.

[Daytr]

I had a bit of a radical thought yesterday.
We have a very blunt tool using interest rates to tame inflation / cool the economy, which only impacts those with debt I.e those starting out or those who can least afford the hit. Meanwhile those debt free are getting higher interest rates on their deposits and can carry on spending up large.

So what if we combined floating interest rates with floating tax rates on the higher income bracket?
Surely it would slow the economy more quickly & spread the burden more evenly.

[Balance]

Latest poll - Government extending lead over Opposition.

What are the polls telling the msm?

https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/national-act-nz-first-56-increase-lead-over-labour-greens-maori-on-40-5-now-at-15-5-points

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/JSQPRJW3DNG2ZKMJAX5S4DNNGA.JPG?auth=d7742f45ee9554 e1b5a17213b9f402a9a6f364bf14f76f67337a10da349a8582&width=1440&height=756&quality=70&smart=true

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/BPMTFJQ7CFALJNXTY7WCPIOAKA.jpg?auth=a0242a53cfdcdd 07cbff8f4868f2166892ede80079d751c22b038d6813fe5c32&width=1440&height=737&quality=70&smart=true

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/UDAP72WF65AVPNNP4E2N5YDG2Y.jpg?auth=03dfdffd96b680 f477d7a238e4e0105f7370ddb4fef9c881ac57a5f6e9a490e8&width=1440&height=737&quality=70&smart=true

[nztx]

I had a bit of a radical thought yesterday.
We have a very blunt tool using interest rates to tame inflation / cool the economy, which only impacts those with debt I.e those starting out or those who can least afford the hit. Meanwhile those debt free are getting higher interest rates on their deposits and can carry on spending up large.

So what if we combined floating interest rates with floating tax rates on the higher income bracket?
Surely it would slow the economy more quickly & spread the burden more evenly.


Talking about blunt tools - how's Chippie doing with filling gaps on the front bench where everyone
seems to be running away, diving overboard & hiding ? ;)

[Daytr]

I had a bit of a radical thought yesterday.
We have a very blunt tool using interest rates to tame inflation / cool the economy, which only impacts those with debt I.e those starting out or those who can least afford the hit. Meanwhile those debt free are getting higher interest rates on their deposits and can carry on spending up large.

So what if we combined floating interest rates with floating tax rates on the higher income bracket?
Surely it would slow the economy more quickly & spread the burden more evenly.

Has anyone got anything serious to say / critique?

[Joshuatree]

Govt Up 1% since Feb.
More telling is this
New Zealand Government Confidence Rating plunges 17pts to 81 in March

Not long to find out if this Govt is a slow moving train wreck and inflation rears it's head.

[Ferg]

You will need to explain the concept of "So what if we combined floating interest rates with floating tax rates on the higher income bracket?". That can be interpreted a few ways.

[Bjauck]

I had a bit of a radical thought yesterday.
We have a very blunt tool using interest rates to tame inflation / cool the economy, which only impacts those with debt I.e those starting out or those who can least afford the hit. Meanwhile those debt free are getting higher interest rates on their deposits and can carry on spending up large.

So what if we combined floating interest rates with floating tax rates on the higher income bracket?
Surely it would slow the economy more quickly & spread the burden more evenly.Are you talking about a type of windfall tax? In any case, If you earn 10% interest, you pay 3.9% as tax; if you earn 1% interest you pay 0.39% tax. We already have a type of floating tax rate on fixed interest investments, which of course has no allowance for the effect of inflation on the fixed interest investment. So 10% interest rates combined with 3.9% tax and say 7% inflation would see a negative net economic return. Currently * we probably still have zero or negative, after tax and inflation, returns from fixed interest assets. Why wring more tax out of these taxpayers?

Also the debt free investors may also have investments that lose capital value during periods of high interest rates.

It is often during periods of low interest rates that most countries capture tax on “windfall” capital gains. Not NZ in general though, so that absence may exacerbate the asset price inflation, and wealth inequalities in NZ.

* Currently the inflation rate is about 4.7%pa. 12 month term deposits yield about 6% gross interest pa. At a tax rate of 33%, the net interest is 4%, providing the investor with a net economic loss of -0.7% pa. Sure, the investor has the choice of spending all their net interest during the year, but that will come at the cost of shrinking their wealth in real terms, and reducing their income in subsequent years. Wealthier individuals would rely less on fixed interest and more on equity investments providing (untaxed) capital gains.

[nztx]

Govt Up 1% since Feb.
More telling is this
New Zealand Government Confidence Rating plunges 17pts to 81 in March

Not long to find out if this Govt is a slow moving train wreck and inflation rears it's head.


We just had trainwreck Central when things went off the rails badly 5 or so months back .. it's not difficult to see how many in the Lead Loco Engine piloting the excursion got pushed, jumped off or ran away from the disaster. From the way some are still mostly underground occasionally popping their heads up to check the weather, it may be that most of those who survived might be suffering delayed shock symptoms infused with amnesia with flashbacks to the better times a decade or more earlier ;)

[Balance]

The state of NZ race relations :

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/52aca146e4b06d986ca82df3/1712305041263-JMKB9HW1L9FS1ZAK6H1C/Te+Reo.jpg?format=500w

https://thebfd.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/the-organ-grinders-monkey.jpeg

[Daytr]

You will need to explain the concept of "So what if we combined floating interest rates with floating tax rates on the higher income bracket?". That can be interpreted a few ways.

Fair enough.
Interest rates are used as a tool to suck demand out of the economy in inflationary times.
The problem is this hits most those with the least disposable income, I.e those paying a mortgage and due to fixed term mortgages it takes a long time for those rate rises to make an impact.

Meanwhile those with more disposable income I.e those without debt contine to spend as they aren't impacted or if they are it's a positive impact, I e more interest.

So if the top tax bracket was floating, this could be adjusted up when the economy needs to be reigned in and lowered when the economy is in recession etc.

Perhaps there is a band of say 5% either side of 40% or something like that.
This would suck more money out of the economy more quickly and also have a fairer impact I.e spreading the burden.

[thegreatestben]

Higher incomes don’t equal lower debt, I think a lot of high earners make pretty significant contributions already and in a lot of cases facilitate jobs and services so other people can also have a livelihood.

If you look at any particular group as being the right people to point the pain at you are looking at the wrong problem to solve.

[Bjauck]

Fair enough.
Interest rates are used as a tool to suck demand out of the economy in inflationary times.
The problem is this hits this most with the least disposable income, I.e those paying a mortgage and due to fixed term mortgages it takes a long time for those rate rises to make an impact.

Meanwhile those with more disposable income I.e those without debt contine to spend as they aren't impacted or if they are it's a positive impact, I e more interest.

So if the top tax bracket was floating, this could be adjusted up when the economy needs to be reigned in and lowered when the economy is in recession etc.

Perhaps there is a band of say 5% either side of 40% or something like that.
This would suck more money out of the economy more quickly and also have a fairer impact I.e spreading the burden. I think the debt free will be impacted, despite receiving more gross income from their fixed interest investments. High interest rates can often mean reduced profitability for some equity investments. So your “wealthy” cohorts may well have reduced dividends or business profits to spend.

Increasing or introducing variable income tax rates would also increase the appeal of investing for capital gains. It also makes addressing the elephant in the NZ tax room even more pressing - that NZ does not have a general CGT.

[Daytr]

No one tool is a cure-all, however a floating top tax rate would have a quicker impact than raising interest rates alone and spread the burden more evenly across the economy.

Yep and a CGT is well overdue.

[Bjauck]

No one tool is a cure-all, however a floating top tax rate would have a quicker impact than raising interest rates alone and spread the burden more evenly across the economy.

Yep and a CGT is well overdue.I disagree that any burden would end up being spread more evenly.

(a) It is manifestly unfair on those who earn income from interest bearing stock, and who in high interest times are already paying a substantial amount of tax, even though their economic returns may well be negative.

(b) It would not particularly shift the burden more onto the particularly rich or wealthy, who have more equity investments.

(c) Having a variable top tax rate would be more difficult to plan for. It could mean a less certain investment environment and Possibly a disincentive to investment, other than in investments that provide capital gains. Also a greater inv-cent I’ve for finding income tax minimisation schemes.

(d) The main windfall gains in NZ from government policy and economic conditions is by way of capital gains.

(e) We need to encourage rather than discourage more household saving and investment for income. We need to encourage more bonds and funding for business expansion.

(f) It would make the need for fundament tax system reform even more pressing.

(g) Cheaper more plentiful housing requiring fewer over-indebted households is needed.

[Daytr]

I disagree that any burden would end up being spread more evenly.

(a) It is manifestly unfair on those who earn income from interest bearing stock, and who in high interest times are already paying a substantial amount of tax, even though their economic returns may well be negative.

(b) It would not particularly shift the burden more onto the particularly rich or wealthy, who have more equity investments.

(c) Having a variable top tax rate would be more difficult to plan for. It could mean a less certain investment environment and Possibly a disincentive to investment, other than in investments that provide capital gains. Also a greater inv-cent I’ve for finding income tax minimisation schemes.

(d) The main windfall gains in NZ from government policy and economic conditions is by way of capital gains.

(e) We need to encourage rather than discourage more household saving and investment for income. We need to encourage more bonds and funding for business expansion.

(f) It would make the need for fundament tax system reform even more pressing.

(g) Cheaper more plentiful housing requiring fewer over-indebted households is needed.

Well it's the nature of forums that people will disagree.

I don't think people relying on fixed interest as income would be impacted much at all, as $180k in interest or dividends is pretty substantial.

It would though take income from high income earners who are the biggest spenders & give it back to them in times of recession etc.
Currently we just suck out billions of dollars from indebted Kiwis & that money paid away doesn't beneft anyone. Whereas at least this money would be paid in tax that would benefit all Kiwis.

But as I said it's not a cure-all and yes a CGT should be introduced, no argument, I am more arguing for a better & fairer way to control inflation.

[iceman]

Mental health minister scrambles as Suicide Prevention Office is caught in spending cuts directive.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/350235161/mental-health-minister-scrambles-suicide-prevention-office-caught-cuts

All this effort to be inhumane, when they can simply put in a CGT or cancel the landlord tax cuts.

Yet more nonsense and lies from you Labour/Greens parrots and the far left, woke and broke Stuff.
The Director General of Health has confirmed closing this unit was never on the cards. You need to do better

[Balance]

Trying to paint Nicola Willis as the new Ruth Richardson - Ardern's attempts to paint herself as a saint.

Repugnant and disgustingly self-serving behaviour - to be expected from Clueless Cindy now that her 5 years of disastrous divisive government is exposed for all to see, week after week.

Wait now for the big revelations to come from the Commission of Inquiry into Covid response - the proper inquiry rather that the whitewash that she had planned to cover her filthy tracks.

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/robert-macculloch-what-s-eating-ardern-linking-nz-s-first-female-finance-minister-ruth-richardson

"Jacinda Ardern's international PR strategy is being unleashed. She's working on becoming a Great Ambassador for Herself and a Terrible Ambassador for NZ. The more she puts her good self up, the more she pulls NZ down and makes her fellow Kiwis look bad. Have you heard Helen Clark or John Key - our former Prime Ministers - upon retirement, get stuck into other Kiwis on the world stage? Not so Ardern.

Her recent address in Bologna targeted NZ's first female Finance Minister, Ruth Richardson. Ardern said Richardson's "Mother of All Budgets came out", when she was 11 years old, cutting public spending. "I even recall seeing a cartoon as a child depicting the then-Minister of Finance [Richardson] standing over a large cauldron of soup with a child begging for more". Of the "impact on people", Ardern recalls "the spread of illnesses associated with poverty .. I remember a neighbor's son taking his own life" (at 1 hour 43 mins into the video below). Ardern said Kiwis back then - of which I was one - called those on benefits "dole bludgers" and spoke of an "Asian invasion".

In this dark story of our mean past, it wasn't just Ruth who made us beggars, life not worth living & who spread plague. She had accomplices - Orks from Middle Earth with names like Richard Prebble & Roger Douglas. Apparently they deployed "fear" to do their dirty work. Stoking fear is not a thing Ardern would dream of doing herself, of course. She'd never tell 1.6 million Aucklanders that thousands & thousands of us would die, die, die - even though most of us were already vaccinated including all of the vulnerable ones - unless we did an almost 4 month lock-down in late 2021, the cause of today's cost-of-living crisis. Pity she put us last in the queue for the vaccine.

Why would an Italian audience even want to hear how someone called Ruth did a budget 30 years ago which somehow was linked to Jacinda's neighbor's son taking their life in Morrinsville? Ardern claimed high unemployment & debt in NZ in the 1980s to early 1990s arose from reforms that made us more "open" & less regulated. She conveniently forgot to mention the oil price shocks - and Foreign Exchange crisis caused by then PM Rob Muldoon - which came before.

What was Ruth's legacy? When she started as Finance Minister in the early 1990s public debt was 40-50% of GDP. It subsequently fell over the next decade to less than 10%, until Ardern ramped debt back up to pre-Ruth 1990 levels, paying for everything during the pandemic on borrowed money (see below). She could only do so because of Prebble-Douglas-Richardson's championing of fiscal responsibility in prior years.

The Italians I know who sat through Ardern's speech were quietly wishing those types would come to Italy to fix their crippled economy, which is afflicted by overwhelming debt & red-tape.

At least Ardern can now start writing more shallow, dinky self-serving PR stories from Harvard, building a narrative that Nicola Willis is the new Ruth Richardson. It really is that pathetic.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/7b14b8_8eb9ba43ffdb446290afa6b7c7087351~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_617,h_455,al_c,lg_1,q_85,enc_auto/7b14b8_8eb9ba43ffdb446290afa6b7c7087351~mv2.png

Yup - We Screwed Up NZ real good! And now we enjoy our rewards while NZers feel the pain in their Arses.

https://media.gettyimages.com/id/852614510/photo/auckland-new-zealand-labour-leader-jacinda-ardern-talks-with-labour-party-mp-grant-robertson.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=H9QT7Oq9s3gfO9WP__1Pq_lvebUftRyWe7IdzJse_Lo=

[Balance]

In the meantime, isn’t it wonderful to know and see young NZers with skills, ambition, drive and options move to Australia so that their families and they can have a great future, away from the divisive & ever impoverished society & country Aotearoa has become?

Police personnel, nurses, doctors, professionals and NZ’s youth - move to Australia. Don’t waste your lives in Aotearoa pushing shxt up hill. The entitled parasites, losers and beneficiaries in their hundreds of thousands are not worth your time and energy.

Even Chris Luxon’s daughter is in Australia pursuing her career and future - what does that tell you?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350235186/life-infinitely-better-former-kiwi-cop-who-moved-aussie

“It’s as simple as this – I can’t make ends meet here. I’ve been in the police force for nine years, and I’m essentially being paid the same as I will at the end of my first year in Australia."

Swanepoel has a simple message for those considering following his lead: “Do it”.

“If it’s right for you and your family, do it. It’s infinitely better. Life is brilliant."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/WQUJPUETAJA6RD34KHIWVCIJ6A.jpg?auth=f479b98f76db6d c006c24c9555e7ed6d40e4870bdb35878c6c627ee570c2236f&width=1440&height=2086&quality=70&smart=true

[Bjauck]

Well it's the nature of forums that people will disagree.

I don't think people relying on fixed interest as income would be impacted much at all, as $180k in interest or dividends is pretty substantial.

It would though take income from high income earners who are the biggest spenders & give it back to them in times of recession etc.
Currently we just suck out billions of dollars from indebted Kiwis & that money paid away doesn't beneft anyone. Whereas at least this money would be paid in tax that would benefit all Kiwis.

But as I said it's not a cure-all and yes a CGT should be introduced, no argument, I am more arguing for a better & fairer way to control inflation.

As incomes increase, doesn’t the percentage saved increase too? NZ’s issue is to encourage those savings to be invested in business and shares rather than land.

Sure in high interest environments, those who benefit are different from those in low interest times. At least the gains earned by investors with high interest income is actually taxed. However in low interest environments the gains earned by indebted households by way of capital gains on housing is untaxed.

The main issue is the fact that many households become over-indebted just to be able to afford NZ’s overly expensive housing. In low interest rate times, their wealth is leveraged skywards - tax free. However in high interest times they face income crunching mortgage interest payments and the spectre of negative equity in their homes. Meanwhile term deposits and other fixed interest investments are over-taxed both in high and low interest rate environments! And all through this NZ has a low productivity economy, which trains for other countries its talented young people, who priced out of home ownership in NZ.

It is good when disagreements can lead to constructive discussion. Is part of your proposal, to make interest payments to investors tax-free in low interest times as a quid pro quo for your extra tax in high interest earning times?

[Daytr]

As incomes increase, doesn’t the percentage saved increase too? NZ’s issue is to encourage those savings to be invested in business and shares rather than land.

Sure in high interest environments, those who benefit are different from those in low interest times. At least the gains earned by investors with high interest income is actually taxed. However in low interest environments the gains earned by indebted households by way of capital gains on housing is untaxed.

The main issue is the fact that many households become over-indebted just to be able to afford NZ’s overly expensive housing. In low interest rate times, their wealth is leveraged skywards - tax free. However in high interest times they face income crunching mortgage interest payments and the spectre of negative equity in their homes. Meanwhile term deposits and other fixed interest investments are over-taxed both in high and low interest rate environments! And all through this NZ has a low productivity economy, which trains for other countries its talented young people, who priced out of home ownership in NZ.

It is good when disagreements can lead to constructive discussion. Is part of your proposal, to make interest payments to investors tax-free in low interest times as a quid pro quo for your extra tax in high interest earning times?

The point you appear to be missing is to tame inflation more quickly and more fairly.
The cost of high interest rates on the economy and those paying the interest is huge and is drawn out because it takes years for the full impact to roll through the fixed term mortgage book.

By having a floating top tax rate and yes up or down, the impact would be much quicker.
If the economy was sluggish and inflation was in check, yes the top tax rate would be lowered to encourage more spending etc.

The reason NZ has a fixation with property is as you say, because of the lack of a CGT. I'm not suggesting one without the other.

Productivity issues however are a little more complicated than just the deficincies of the tax system

[Daytr]

In the meantime, isn’t it wonderful to know and see young NZers with skills, ambition, drive and options move to Australia so that their families and they can have a great future, away from the divisive & ever impoverished society & country Aotearoa has become?

Police personnel, nurses, doctors, professionals and NZ’s youth - move to Australia. Don’t waste your lives in Aotearoa pushing shxt up hill. The entitled parasites, losers and beneficiaries in their hundreds of thousands are not worth your time and energy.

Even Chris Luxon’s daughter is in Australia pursuing her career and future - what does that tell you?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350235186/life-infinitely-better-former-kiwi-cop-who-moved-aussie

“It’s as simple as this – I can’t make ends meet here. I’ve been in the police force for nine years, and I’m essentially being paid the same as I will at the end of my first year in Australia."

Swanepoel has a simple message for those considering following his lead: “Do it”.

“If it’s right for you and your family, do it. It’s infinitely better. Life is brilliant."

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/WQUJPUETAJA6RD34KHIWVCIJ6A.jpg?auth=f479b98f76db6d c006c24c9555e7ed6d40e4870bdb35878c6c627ee570c2236f&width=1440&height=2086&quality=70&smart=true

Well it tells me that she doesn't trust Daddy will do the right thing.

[Bjauck]

The point you appear to be missing is to tame inflation more quickly and more fairly.
The cost of high interest rates on the economy and those paying the interest is huge and is drawn out because it takes years for the full impact to roll through the fixed term mortgage book.

By having a floating top tax rate and yes up or down, the impact would be much quicker.
If the economy was sluggish and inflation was in check, yes the top tax rate would be lowered to encourage more spending etc.

The reason NZ has a fixation with property is as you say, because of the lack of a CGT. I'm not suggesting one without the other.

Productivity issues however are a little more complicated than just the deficincies of the tax system

As I Have explained previously, I think your variable windfall income tax would increase tax unfairness.

Also I am not sure how extra tax on interest “windfall” boosted income would help tame inflation. Two main factors causing inflation in NZ tend to be supply constraints and labour force constraints.

I suspect any extra tax raised would be used either for public works or to reduce tax elsewhere. Extra money for lower income earners would be spent on consumables and would boost CPI inflation, whereas extra money for higher income earners would tend to go more towards investments - not part of the basket of items whereby we measure inflation in NZ.

Productivity issues have several causes. I think tax system issues are an important factor. However electorally dangerous for the party in power to fix!

[Balance]

Well it tells me that she doesn't trust Daddy will do the right thing.

And I agree with her that her dad can do whatever he likes but Aotearoa is too far gone down the gurgle to be salvaged. All he can do is slow down the decline.

Why would she (or anyone with sense and options) live in this racially and socially divided retarding country which specialises in breeding ever more parasites, losers and beneficiaries?

[Daytr]

And I agree with her that her dad can do whatever he likes but Aotearoa is too far gone down the gurgle to be salvaged. All he can do is slow down the decline.

Why would she (or anyone with sense and options) live in this racially and socially divided retarding country which specialises in breeding ever more parasites, losers and beneficiaries?

So you keep saying which is getting rather tedious.
Where I live, I have a great life as many do just enjoying NZs beautiful natural playground.

Stop whining. No one like a whinger.
Perhaps you will also fit into Australia rather well.

[Panda-NZ-]

Taxes on cash interest is pretty brutal.. this is coming from a social democrat influenced poster.

Earn $70,001 and sorry it's a flat 28-33% tax on all of your term deposits (so is worse than paye).

I suppose it does encourage more active investments.

[Balance]

So you keep saying which is getting rather tedious.
Where I live, I have a great life as many do just enjoying NZs beautiful natural playground.

Stop whining. No one like a whinger.
Perhaps you will also fit into Australia rather well.

You sound like the proverbial frog in the pot - water is getting warmer as the heat increases from the fire and you are feeling just great!

If telling the truth is whining, then you must have the 'Ignorance is bliss' mindset then!

A policeman's tale after migrating to Australia:

“It’s as simple as this – I can’t make ends meet here. I’ve been in the police force for nine years, and I’m essentially being paid the same as I will at the end of my first year in Australia."

Swanepoel has a simple message for those considering following his lead: “Do it”.

“If it’s right for you and your family, do it. It’s infinitely better. Life is brilliant."

[Daytr]

Taxes on cash interest is pretty brutal.. this is coming from a social democrat influenced poster.

Earn $70,001 and sorry it's a flat 28-33% tax on all of your term deposits (so is worse than paye).

I suppose it does encourage more active investments.

Isn't it the same as any income tax?

[Daytr]

You sound like the proverbial frog in the pot - water is getting warmer as the heat increases from the fire and you are feeling just great!

If telling the truth is whining, then you must have the 'Ignorance is bliss' mindset then!

A policeman's tale after migrating to Australia:

“It’s as simple as this – I can’t make ends meet here. I’ve been in the police force for nine years, and I’m essentially being paid the same as I will at the end of my first year in Australia."

Swanepoel has a simple message for those considering following his lead: “Do it”.

“If it’s right for you and your family, do it. It’s infinitely better. Life is brilliant."

Because I'm happy and you're a sad sack I must be ignorant! 🤣
Get a grip man, you are losing the plot.

[Balance]

Because I'm happy and you're a sad sack I must be ignorant! ��
Get a grip man, you are losing the plot.

I am one happy chap - as you would really be if you have a tropical second home by the beach.

The truth hurts huh?

[nztx]

Taxes on cash interest is pretty brutal.. this is coming from a social democrat influenced poster.

Earn $70,001 and sorry it's a flat 28-33% tax on all of your term deposits (so is worse than paye).

I suppose it does encourage more active investments.


Kiwibank might be happy to bring back some recycled Green Kiwi Money Boxes for those who don't like it :)

[Panda-NZ-]

Isn't it the same as any income tax?

No, on every dollar below 70k you get taxed less. This applies to those on 300k too (they still only pay 10.5% on the first 14k).

[iceman]

No, on every dollar below 70k you get taxed less. This applies to those on 300k too (they still only pay 10.5% on the first 14k).
I don’t think you are right. You choose your RWT and that’s what your bank pays on your behalf to IRD. At the end of the tax year, it gets squared of and you get a bill or a refund . This from IRD website:

“interest payments from a savings account or term deposit to an individual are taxed at an RWT rate that you choose, depending on your income. If you do not choose a rate, then the default rate of 33% applies.”

[Panda-NZ-]

The key phrase there is depending on your income:

https://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax/withholding-taxes/resident-withholding-tax-rwt/using-the-right-rwt-tax-rate

It must match your top income tax rate for an individual (possibly excl the new 39% rate).

[Daytr]

I am one happy chap - as you would really be if you have a tropical second home by the beach.

The truth hurts huh?

So no one is happy unless they have a tropical second home. 🤣🤣🤣

What a dick comment.
Talk about compensating.
Compensating for what though I wonder?

You really are small potatoes.
I hope for your own sake that you do uncover the recipe for happiness and its not about how much you own.

Anyway we are miles of topic.
I'll let you get on with your continual moaning.

[Jay]

I don’t think you are right. You choose your RWT and that’s what your bank pays on your behalf to IRD. At the end of the tax year, it gets squared of and you get a bill or a refund . This from IRD website:

“interest payments from a savings account or term deposit to an individual are taxed at an RWT rate that you choose, depending on your income. If you do not choose a rate, then the default rate of 33% applies.”

I thought my bank has said if no rate loaded taxed at 45% - ouch!

[Bjauck]

I am one happy chap - as you would really be if you have a tropical second home by the beach.

The truth hurts huh? On my gauge of happiness, I am afraid all aspects of that would not be factors. However congratulations to you for your achievement of happiness. I am curious though, did you earn any of your wealth in the country where your second beach home is located?

[Bjauck]

I thought my bank has said if no rate loaded taxed at 45% - ouch! I think it is 33%. However it may be 45% if no IRD number is provided. I think 28% PIR is the maximum if it is a term Pie fund.

https://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax/withholding-taxes/resident-withholding-tax-rwt#:~:text=interest%20payments%20from%20a%20savin gs,default%20rate%20of%2033%25%20applies.

[blackcap]

I think it is 33%. However it may be 45% if no IRD number is provided. I think 28% PIR is the maximum if it is a term Pie fund.

https://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax/withholding-taxes/resident-withholding-tax-rwt#:~:text=interest%20payments%20from%20a%20savin gs,default%20rate%20of%2033%25%20applies.

Yes 45% if no IRD number provided. I got caught out by this on a new entity a little while back. In the end it comes back in the end of year wash but its an interest free loan to the IRD in the mean time.

[Panda-NZ-]

Productivity issues have several causes. I think tax system issues are an important factor. However electorally dangerous for the party in power to fix!

This govt is going to dismantle the productivity commission and reduce funding to MBIE. Not a great start.

Send some bloody experts to finland, sweden and high-tech US firms then have them report back and tell us how to adopt technology like they have .. not that hard in a world where everything is a plane flight away.

[Ferg]

Send some bloody experts to finland, sweden and high-tech US firms then have them report back and tell us how to adopt technology like they have .. not that hard in a world where everything is a plane flight away.

If we are looking to others for high tech solutions, why would we use low tech to physically transport a person there?

[Bjauck]

If we are looking to others for high tech solutions, why would we use low tech to physically transport a person there?
I had a chuckle over that. Certainly you can do a lot of ground work first. However nothing like - yet - in person chats with personnel and wandering around an organisation over several visits to get a total feel of things.

[Panda-NZ-]

If we are looking to others for high tech solutions, why would we use low tech to physically transport a person there?

When you rely on the horse and cart... first you need to ride it to the car factory to be able to learn something.

[thegreatestben]

This govt is going to dismantle the productivity commission and reduce funding to MBIE. Not a great start.

Send some bloody experts to finland, sweden and high-tech US firms then have them report back and tell us how to adopt technology like they have .. not that hard in a world where everything is a plane flight away.

I worked in a role with a swedish companies products, amazing technology and I attribute my personal success in my career to my exposure to this particular company. But the real secret isn't the technology, it's the culture of the people.
In the same role I was working with the equivalent technology from a couple of other countries/cultures too, specifically USA and Japan.

Each of these companies (big well known names) had the equivalent technology but the real difference was the culture driving the adoption and usage of the technology.

[Jay]

Yes 45% if no IRD number provided. I got caught out by this on a new entity a little while back. In the end it comes back in the end of year wash but its an interest free loan to the IRD in the mean time.
Yes should have said no IRD number loaded not rate

[dobby41]

So no one is happy unless they have a tropical second home. 🤣🤣🤣


Some of us don't need a tropical second home.
I, for one, use other people's places which means I can visit lots of different places whenever I want rather than lacking in imagination and only having one escape place.
Poor (un)Balance.

[Bjauck]

I go into Manukau city about once a fortnight for shopping and to pick up the takeaways treat. Since Covid there gas been growth in beggars hanging around the fast food joints. Just recently some beggars have taken up around Countdown supermarket. Quite threatening with loud voices asking for money, and then cussing under breath if I don’t give alms. Some other shoppers give food, and the recipients are so grateful.

Haggling in shops is more common; begging is more common. Maybe we are already like the USA or a third world country with grinding unsupported poverty. I can’t see that changing under the current government. At the age of 53yo, I am starting to feel uncomfortable in my country. Maybe I am too old-fashioned.

(omg I sound like Balance!)

[Panda-NZ-]

I go into Manukau city about once a fortnight for shopping and to pick up the takeaways treat. Since Covid there gas been growth in beggars hanging around the fast food joints. Just recently some beggars have taken up around Countdown supermarket. Quite threatening with loud voices asking for money, and then cussing under breath if I don’t give alms. Some other shoppers give food, and the recipients are so grateful.


We also need security guards everywhere including hospitals.

[Bjauck]

We also need security guards everywhere including hospitals. Yep. On top of you or family member needing emergency treatment, you feel threatened by some of the other patients in the ED. It gets worse when you hear the medical staff being abused and threatened. In general, Maybe the dull and boring NZ of the 70’s and early 80’s wasn’t so bad after all.

[Ferg]

I had a chuckle over that. Certainly you can do a lot of ground work first. However nothing like - yet - in person chats with personnel and wandering around an organisation over several visits to get a total feel of things.
Thanks for that. Yes it was tongue in cheek....low hanging fruit and all that....I agree, nothing like immersing oneself to get a feel for a place. Speaking of which, per your later post:


Just recently some beggars have taken up around Countdown supermarket. [snip] Some other shoppers give food, and the recipients are so grateful. [snip] .... begging is more common. Maybe we are already like the USA or a third world country with grinding unsupported poverty.

In my experience, these people are financially supported so I don't agree with the grinding unsupported poverty - unless it is a new breed of beggars. There are services and support for those who seek it, but maybe not sufficiently tailored to the needs of some of these people.

I know I am generalising here but bear with me given these are my anecdotes. What I am describing occurred 8-10 years ago in central Auckland. I sat and talked to quite a few beggars and took a number of individuals for a hot meal and drink of their choosing, and all I asked in return was to sit and have a chat. Mental health issues and substance abuse are often related. I usually ask "what's your story - how did you get to this position?". You get most of the story and sometimes the odd lie (for instance checking with local social service providers who supposedly rejected them has previously unearthed lies). Drugs and lies go hand in hand.

You only have to ask "what's your poison?" or "do you have an issue with alcohol or drugs?" and a number will confess to something illicit. I feel sorry for the genuine beggars (even if they have drug or have alcohol issues) because IMO this is a failure of mental health services and the closure of various facilities around the 1980s which pushed a number of these people into the cities and suburbs. Surely the solution is to reinstate those facilities and the tough love? Some beggars are not so genuine - on offering someone I regularly saw begging the chance for a hot meal and drink in a local café, he declined on the basis he "didn't want to lose his spot". So he wasn't hungry. Also, if you are going to give something I recommend first ask the person what they want. Some I talked to were sick of getting pies - they feel they have to show gratitude, but sometimes they might just want basics like bread and fruit.

The issue we see today is IMO the result of decades of underfunding of mental health services. If anyone needs to visit another country to see what and/or how we can do anything better, it is those running and funding the mental health services in NZ.

[Daytr]

Thanks for that. Yes it was tongue in cheek....low hanging fruit and all that....I agree, nothing like immersing oneself to get a feel for a place. Speaking of which, per your later post:



In my experience, these people are financially supported so I don't agree with the grinding unsupported poverty - unless it is a new breed of beggars. There are services and support for those who seek it, but maybe not sufficiently tailored to the needs of some of these people.

I know I am generalising here but bear with me given these are my anecdotes. What I am describing occurred 8-10 years ago in central Auckland. I sat and talked to quite a few beggars and took a number of individuals for a hot meal and drink of their choosing, and all I asked in return was to sit and have a chat. Mental health issues and substance abuse are often related. I usually ask "what's your story - how did you get to this position?". You get most of the story and sometimes the odd lie (for instance checking with local social service providers who supposedly rejected them has previously unearthed lies). Drugs and lies go hand in hand.

You only have to ask "what's your poison?" or "do you have an issue with alcohol or drugs?" and a number will confess to something illicit. I feel sorry for the genuine beggars (even if they have drug or have alcohol issues) because IMO this is a failure of mental health services and the closure of various facilities around the 1980s which pushed a number of these people into the cities and suburbs. Surely the solution is to reinstate those facilities and the tough love? Some beggars are not so genuine - on offering someone I regularly saw begging the chance for a hot meal and drink in a local café, he declined on the basis he "didn't want to lose his spot". So he wasn't hungry. Also, if you are going to give something I recommend first ask the person what they want. Some I talked to were sick of getting pies - they feel they have to show gratitude, but sometimes they might just want basics like bread and fruit.

The issue we see today is IMO the result of decades of underfunding of mental health services. If anyone needs to visit another country to see what and/or how we can do anything better, it is those running and funding the mental health services in NZ.

Great post Ferg and good on you for trying to understand the issue.
A lot of addiction comes from trauma or mental health and is often self medicating.

The growth in begging and homeless in NZ in the last 15 years is very sad.

[Balance]

Continuing the saga of divisions and decline of Aotearoa - the new government has its work cut out to slow the slide towards 2nd world.

The state of MSM in NZ - as Spin Mistress Ardern & Deceitful Labour sowed, the MSM now reaps the results.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/04/08/kiwi-trust-in-news-now-well-below-global-average-report-suggests/

The public's trust in New Zealand's news media has fallen sharply over the past year and is now "well below" the global average, a new report suggests.

Survey results also suggest Kiwis are now world leaders in actively avoiding the news due to the perception the news available was either too negative or of poor quality.


https://tvnz-1-news-prod.cdn.arcpublishing.com/resizer/v2/trust-in-news-in-general-in-2020-2024-APWCNCBALRHIRLFBA3OYPVKIDM.jpg?auth=1e8d06b8deee3d 4a0ca644805df2d2620305226116e492f63c86b0a43530882e&quality=70&width=800&height=449&focal=651%2C366

"Most transparent government EVER! One source of TRUTH! " Ardern

https://thebfd.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/witchypoo-2048x1463.jpeg

[Bjauck]

Thanks for that. Yes it was tongue in cheek....low hanging fruit and all that....I agree, nothing like immersing oneself to get a feel for a place. Speaking of which, per your later post:

In my experience, these people are financially supported so I don't agree with the grinding unsupported poverty - unless it is a new breed of beggars. There are services and support for those who seek it, but maybe not sufficiently tailored to the needs of some of these people.
With the high immigration rates, some of the beggars could also be overstayers or otherwise currently ineligible for welfare. I am wary of profiling, but my observations could not rule that out.

I know I am generalising here but bear with me given these are my anecdotes. What I am describing occurred 8-10 years ago in central Auckland. I sat and talked to quite a few beggars and took a number of individuals for a hot meal and drink of their choosing, and all I asked in return was to sit and have a chat. Mental health issues and substance abuse are often related. I usually ask "what's your story - how did you get to this position?". You get most of the story and sometimes the odd lie (for instance checking with local social service providers who supposedly rejected them has previously unearthed lies). Drugs and lies go hand in hand. It is good that you made an effort to find out. I admit that I would be scared to take it upon myself to be so investigative. Undoubtedly some of those who beg, have had addiction issues, and have fallen foul of social agencies. Whether there are fewer last chances given, and fewer agencies of last resort than previously, I cannot say. Is available funding now swamped by the numbers of folk needing help, with Fewer private donors, and constrained taxpayer funding?

You only have to ask "what's your poison?" or "do you have an issue with alcohol or drugs?" and a number will confess to something illicit. I feel sorry for the genuine beggars (even if they have drug or have alcohol issues) because IMO this is a failure of mental health services and the closure of various facilities around the 1980s which pushed a number of these people into the cities and suburbs. Surely the solution is to reinstate those facilities and the tough love? Some beggars are not so genuine - on offering someone I regularly saw begging the chance for a hot meal and drink in a local café, he declined on the basis he "didn't want to lose his spot". So he wasn't hungry. Also, if you are going to give something I recommend first ask the person what they want. Some I talked to were sick of getting pies - they feel they have to show gratitude, but sometimes they might just want basics like bread and fruut. A problem is a problem, a drug addict needs help as much as any beggar. Those with mental health issues/addiction issues need help. Fewer shoppers carry around cash, so a donation of what they buy may be all they could do. Some may make the time and the effort of discussing the beggars needs, language issues notwithstanding.

Certainly community based support for mental health, shifted the onus more onto families. The intent is always to regularly monitor to pick up stresses and To ensure everyone can cope. If it fails, the public is affected by the fallout.

The issue we see today is IMO the result of decades of underfunding of mental health services. If anyone needs to visit another country to see what and/or how we can do anything better, it is those running and funding the mental health services in NZ. I also think people in NZ have changed. We no longer feel the same obligation not to be impatient, not to be a tall poppy, or not to make a fuss. So whether it is making a complaint, demanding what we think are our rights, or asking for help, we are not as reluctant as previously to stand out from the crowd.

[iceman]

I worked in a role with a swedish companies products, amazing technology and I attribute my personal success in my career to my exposure to this particular company. But the real secret isn't the technology, it's the culture of the people.
In the same role I was working with the equivalent technology from a couple of other countries/cultures too, specifically USA and Japan.

Each of these companies (big well known names) had the equivalent technology but the real difference was the culture driving the adoption and usage of the technology.

Spot on. I often hear here in NZ that we should be aiming for Nordic living standards. Having come from that part of the World, I agree. But it will require a complete cultural change in NZ first, before we have any chance of achieving Nordic living standards. It will not happen in my lifetime and in fact we have recently been going backward at a fast rate of knots.

[Bjauck]

Spot on. I often hear here in NZ that we should be aiming for Nordic living standards. Having come from that part of the World, I agree. But it will require a complete cultural change in NZ first, before we have any chance of achieving Nordic living standards. It will not happen in my lifetime and in fact we have recently been going backward at a fast rate of knots.Well until the mid 1960’s NZ was in the World’s top 5 for GDP per person. It is wonderful when you are are part of or closely aligned to a much bigger trading bloc as NZ was with the UK and imperial preference, and the Nordics with the EU.

Of course Ireland is the current stand out GDP success in Europe. From my observations NZ has more cultural affinity to Ireland than to the Nordics.

Most nations have yo-yoed in their productivity and comparative Wealth, depending on circumstances, including the Scandinavians.

[Balance]

Spot on. I often hear here in NZ that we should be aiming for Nordic living standards. Having come from that part of the World, I agree. But it will require a complete cultural change in NZ first, before we have any chance of achieving Nordic living standards. It will not happen in my lifetime and in fact we have recently been going backward at a fast rate of knots.

What has gone horribly wrong with NZ can be summed up as :

6 years of a socialist government, completely clueless about how to run a modern economy & create increased wealth, intent on impoverishing the whole country by redistributing from those who work hard and save hard to those who don’t.

[Panda-NZ-]

Spot on. I often hear here in NZ that we should be aiming for Nordic living standards. Having come from that part of the World, I agree. But it will require a complete cultural change in NZ first, before we have any chance of achieving Nordic living standards. It will not happen in my lifetime and in fact we have recently been going backward at a fast rate of knots.

Yeah possibly. Rugby stars, opening a cafe and selling/doing up a house is considered the kiwi dream.

Rarely do we hear about NZ scientists, academics, innovators, enterpreneurs.

[Panda-NZ-]

Luxon wants us to be more like Estonia, ie eastern europe. That middle ground between the first and third world.

How about that large landmass next to us.. or better yet join up with them.

[thegreatestben]

You're cherry picking Panda.

[Balance]

Latest polls : Greens surge at the expense of ACT & NZF. National and Labour static.

Goody! Sooner the Greens eclipse Labour, the better!

Will help Australia attract even more skilled, professionals, young and hard working NZers over.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/greens-surge-act-down-in-new-poll-chris-bishop-now-more-popular-than-christopher-luxon/44EPX2VKLVE7BN7UNRIGOTHOKM/

[Getty]

We also need security guards everywhere including hospitals.

Only if they are genuine thug types who have legal power to restrain and detain.
Not the minimum wage type recent immigrants who do nothing but wear the uniform.

Otherwise just an unnecessary ineffectual addition to the contract wage bill that the customer or taxpayers have to bear.

[nztx]

Luxon wants us to be more like Estonia, ie eastern europe. That middle ground between the first and third world.

How about that large landmass next to us.. or better yet join up with them.


Fancy referring to the Chathams like that ;)

[Bjauck]

Yeah possibly. Rugby stars, opening a cafe and selling/doing up a house is considered the kiwi dream.

Rarely do we hear about NZ scientists, academics, innovators, enterpreneurs. Those dreams all involve hard work! At one stage I think the dream was to flip your house every few years to leverage your equity so you could scale the property ladder. People got more from that than from their after tax salary from their jobs.

We have plenty of local versions of real estate programmes but It is difficult to imagine a NZ version of the “Big Bang Theory”. For a start the three NZ born scientific Nobel winners have all been based overseas (UK or USA) when they got their awards.

Has Social media influencer replaced firefighter or nurse yet as a young child’s dream?

[Bjauck]

Only if they are genuine thug types who have legal power to restrain and detain.
Not the minimum wage type recent immigrants who do nothing but wear the uniform.

Otherwise just an unnecessary ineffectual addition to the contract wage bill that the customer or taxpayers have to bear.I have seen the security personnel in operation in hospital. They are not useless ornaments. Security is not about being thuggish: Quite the opposite.

Tax payers can decide whether they want to provide robust social and medical services, or allow conditions to continue whereby the troubled and violent folk end up in the ED with the need for security guards to protect patients and medical staff.

[Balance]

Huge blow for democracy?

They mean huge blow for the MSM woke leftists.

Good riddance to MSM garbage.

Here’s to Stuff being next.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350241157/listen-newshub-really-gone-presenters-insiders-rue-huge-blow-democracy

[Bjauck]

Huge blow for democracy?

They mean huge blow for the woke leftists.

Good riddance to garbage.

Here’s to Stuff bring next.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350241157/listen-newshub-really-gone-presenters-insiders-rue-huge-blow-democracy
I guess for Media balance we need woke leftist as well as reactionary rightist.

[causecelebre]

No we don't. We need news reporters to report the news not give opinions

[mistaTea]

No we don't. We need news reporters to report the news not give opinions

Damn right.

I don’t want to replace woke left wing “journalists” with a new breed of right wingers foisting their view of the world on me.

Christ, I just want the news! No slant! No agenda!

Is it really so much to ask?

[Bjauck]

No we don't. We need news reporters to report the news not give opinions So who decides what to report and what is “news” worth running? Which sources are trustworthy? Rich media owners? The editors they appoint?

I think the fight between school kids at the park should be reported as news. It fits into the general narrative of a crumbling society, plus it sells more advertising, but the Rhodes scholarship award is not news.

[Balance]

So who decides what to report and what is “news” worth running? Which sources are trustworthy?

Up to the readers and audience to judge - simple.

Proof will be whether the MSM becomes newsworthy and trustworthy in their eyes again.

And absolutely no more bribe money from the government to promote racial, social and religious agendas.

[mistaTea]

So who decides what to report and what is “news” worth running? Which sources are trustworthy?

That is literally the job of the Editor.

And if he/she is any good then any bias/opinions creeping in from reporters are removed from the news story. Or the article isbclearly marked as an opinion piece.

As an Editor, Iof you do choose to publish a lot of opinion pieces, then you better hope there are a lot of eyeballs that share your world view or else your revenue is going to crash quickly.

[causecelebre]

So who decides what to report and what is “news” worth running? Which sources are trustworthy? Rich media owners? The editors they appoint?

I think the fight between school kids at the park should be reported as news. It fits into the general narrative of a crumbling society, plus it sells more advertising, but the Rhodes scholarship award is not news.

I agree that if the reported "kids fight in park" then all good. However, they report "kids fight in park, and this is a direct result of the divisiveness the coalition of chaos has engendered in our society..." which is opinion

[Bjauck]

Up to the readers and audience to judge - simple.

Proof will be whether the MSM becomes newsworthy and trustworthy in their eyes again.

And absolutely no more bribe money from the government to promote racial, social and religious agendas. Are rich media owner’s agenda ok?

Mainstream media with a team of reporters is expensive to run, whereas non-mainstream is cheaper. is that right? So advertising and/or subs will need to sold to cover expensive. Maybe there is an owner with deep pockets cross subsidising from business interests. Maybe they think subsidising media works out well for long term business interests.

So news in the end is whatever sells the most profitable advertising or whatever the owner approves of?

[Bjauck]

That is literally the job of the Editor.

And if he/she is any good then any bias/opinions creeping in from reporters are removed from the news story. Or the article isbclearly marked as an opinion piece.

As an Editor, Iof you do choose to publish a lot of opinion pieces, then you better hope there are a lot of eyeballs that share your world view or else your revenue is going to crash quickly.
Editors beholden to owners. You can develop a readership that is accustomed to getting “your” take on what is news.

[Bjauck]

I agree that if the reported "kids fight in park" then all good. However, they report "kids fight in park, and this is a direct result of the divisiveness the coalition of chaos has engendered in our society..." which is opinion
So you’d be happy if the story on the award of the Rhodes scholarship is not run? I have decided not to run it as it would probably appeal to fewer people and of a demographic that advertisers don’t pay much for. More of the demographic that advertisers’ like want to hear about fights and wayward kids. The site desperately needs more money.

What about Kids fight in Park. And you try include the fact that the government has cut funding to after school clubs in the area? However your editor does not like the additional information? The editor thinks that story should be kept back and run in a few days time., without specifying which area had its funding cut.

[dobby41]

I hope they think carefully before they open the floodgates to new materials.
Although it needs doing, it needs doing right.
15029

Summed up where Luxon is getting his plans from
15030

[Balance]

I hope they think carefully before they open the floodgates to new materials.
Although it needs doing, it needs doing right.
15029

Summed up where Luxon is getting his plans from


Better & supremely superior to the policies of Ardern & Hipkins which came from the holes in their backsides.

https://thebfd.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/bite-the-dust-2048x1463.jpg

[jonu]

I hope they think carefully before they open the floodgates to new materials.
Although it needs doing, it needs doing right.
15029

Summed up where Luxon is getting his plans from
15030

Ironic, given that Fletchers and CHH helped drive the leaky homes problem with the untreated KD framing they pushed for in the early 90s. They appeared to be trying to push small mills out of the market as they didn't have the kiln capacity.

[Balance]

Less than 10% jobs cut so far of the 16,000 civil servants (added by Labour over the last 6 years) and the MSM are squealing like pigs in the abattoir but why were they so silent when the 16,000 jobs were added on?

Those who are taking voluntary redundancies will be on their way to join the exodus to Australia - always the way that the best and most skilled will jump ship first, leaving the useless ones behind.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/public-sector-cuts-further-job-cuts-not-ruled-out-at-mbie/SDNJ63GXZFE5NFA235XPRT5EJY/

[mistaTea]

Less than 10% jobs cut so far of the 16,000 civil servants (added by Labour over the last 6 years) and the MSM are squealing like pigs in the abattoir but why were they so silent when the 16,000 jobs were added on?

Those who are taking voluntary redundancies will be on their way to join the exodus to Australia - always the way that the best and most skilled will jump ship first, leaving the useless ones behind.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/public-sector-cuts-further-job-cuts-not-ruled-out-at-mbie/SDNJ63GXZFE5NFA235XPRT5EJY/

Yeah well MSM getting their beans now.

I don’t feel any pity for the paddy gowers of the world hooing and booing about getting sh1t canned.

They still seem to think a white knight should come in and prop them up so they can continue providing a service most people clearly do not want.

They are so divorced from reality they just cannot look in the mirror.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/513949/patrick-gower-clings-to-hope-of-rescue-with-250-jobs-to-go-after-newshub-closes

[causecelebre]

So you’d be happy if the story on the award of the Rhodes scholarship is not run? I have decided not to run it as it would probably appeal to fewer people and of a demographic that advertisers don’t pay much for. More of the demographic that advertisers’ like want to hear about fights and wayward kids. The site desperately needs more money.

What about Kids fight in Park. And you try include the fact that the government has cut funding to after school clubs in the area? However your editor does not like the additional information? The editor thinks that story should be kept back and run in a few days time., without specifying which area had its funding cut.

Sure I’d love to hear about a Rhodes award as long as it was given on merit and not affirmative action. And if kids were fighting in a park as a result of funding cuts backed by irrefutable data confirmed by experts on both sides of the asile then I’d read that too. Sadly, as we know left bias is institutionalised in the MSM and the editorial direction is anything but unbiased. Luckily we have news outlets that we can choose to read/listen/watch that’s is not under the perview and influence of cancel culture, namely the supposedly unbiased BSA and organisations such as the Disinformation Project

[Getty]

Radio & TV have run the story of the Porirua pupil suggesting to David Seymour he will be responsible for kids starving if funded school lunches are withdrawn.

Not one word or suggestion in the coverage it's their parents responsibility to feed their children.

The popular 'healthy' options of nachos
and butter chicken can easily be purchased elsewhere if unimaginative parents can't make a sandwich.

[Bjauck]

Sure I’d love to hear about a Rhodes award as long as it was given on merit and not affirmative action. And if kids were fighting in a park as a result of funding cuts backed by irrefutable data confirmed by experts on both sides of the asile then I’d read that too. Sadly, as we know left bias is institutionalised in the MSM and the editorial direction is anything but unbiased. Luckily we have news outlets that we can choose to read/listen/watch that’s is not underw the perview and influence of cancel culture, namely the supposedly unbiased BSA and organisations such as the Disinformation Project
We can all select whichever echo chamber confirms our particular bias.

[Baa_Baa]

We can all select whichever echo chamber confirms our particular bias.

Which ones do you select, or is it just ST and your own opinions incessantly repeated that we're all fecked because we don't have a CGT in NZ? You're slipping in your posts, some of them don't even mention CGT.

[Bjauck]

Radio & TV have run the story of the Porirua pupil suggesting to David Seymour he will be responsible for kids starving if funded school lunches are withdrawn.

Not one word or suggestion in the coverage it's their parents responsibility to feed their children.

The popular 'healthy' options of nachos
and butter chicken can easily be purchased elsewhere if unimaginative parents can't make a sandwich. It would have been better not to have funded lunches rather than for the funding to be taken away? They should use their tax-free capital gains from investments for the extra money they need to find the money to pay for food plus tax during a cost of living crisis.

[Bjauck]

Which ones do you select, or is it just ST and your own opinions incessantly repeated that we're all fecked because we don't have a CGT in NZ? You're slipping in your posts, some of them don't even mention CGT. Baa_Baa has a bee in his bonnet. It seems like you have the obsession, Feel free to block me if you don’t like my echo.

[Baa_Baa]

Baa_Baa has a bee in his bonnet. It seems like you have the obsession, Feel free to block me if you don’t like my echo.

Not at all, try to keep up, if you want to use ST as your platform, you do need to promote CGT in every post, it seems to be the platform that you base most posts upon. That said, your posts as you pointed out recently, have become quite 'in my words' bitter and myopic. OTY the prerogative is yours.

[Bjauck]

Not at all, try to keep up, if you want to use ST as your platform, you do need to promote CGT in every post, it seems to be the platform that you base most posts upon. That said, your posts as you pointed out recently, have become quite 'in my words' bitter and myopic. OTY the prerogative is yours. Sorry I should have just said that it must be difficult for struggling families to find the extra money for lunches that had previously been funded. I expressed that facetiously.

I have been posting more often as I have had more time on my hands recently.

Anyway, Peace to you.

[causecelebre]

We can all select whichever echo chamber confirms our particular bias.

absolutely. I try to consume a range of views. However, MSM is not one of them. I can get considered left views from other sources as I can right

[Getty]

Paddy Gower of "get stuffed" fame says he has no idea of what he will do next.

With attitude like that Paddy, we need you as shopping mall security, or Corrections Department.

Fellow bleeding heart John Campbell is a little more complex, maybe a mental health counsellor is his destiny.

[Balance]

Paddy Gower of "get stuffed" fame says he has no idea of what he will do next.

With attitude like that Paddy, we need you as shopping mall security, or Corrections Department.

Fellow bleeding heart John Campbell is a little more complex, maybe a mental health counsellor is his destiny.

Go woke and go broke.

And to Paddy, you lot can get stuffed indeed like you leftist losers stuffed up your integrity & trust of the public - by taking the Ardern bribes to promote woke policies and racial divisions.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/patrick-gower-defends-newshub-from-keyboard-warriors-after-confirmed-closure/CVLG2X52VBEVLNO5MAALKPJYV4/

How our hearts bleed for them ....NOT!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/v2/L6RBVQO4LZATFFH5VKQOCSYBHM.JPG?auth=b565aaabc1eac1 fb32632b927e69f4f238da61acca406b428648ecf06a0451c7&width=1440&height=756&quality=70&smart=true

[Balance]

Less than 10% jobs cut so far of the 16,000 civil servants (added by Labour over the last 6 years) and the MSM are squealing like pigs in the abattoir but why were they so silent when the 16,000 jobs were added on?

Those who are taking voluntary redundancies will be on their way to join the exodus to Australia - always the way that the best and most skilled will jump ship first, leaving the useless ones behind.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/public-sector-cuts-further-job-cuts-not-ruled-out-at-mbie/SDNJ63GXZFE5NFA235XPRT5EJY/

Wonderful news to read - prediction that many Maori & Pacific Islander civil servants will take redundancy and head across to Australia!

More's the merrier!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/public-service-cull-its-not-only-new-zealand-police-eyeing-lucrative-jobs-across-the-ditch/SCZ4NDQDYRA45LA3V2T4JNZQBM/

"The Māori arm of the Public Service Association says the Government’s decision to axe as many as 7500 civil servants means irreplaceable skills and cultural expertise will ultimately be lost across the Tasman and they will join dozens of New Zealand police officers already contemplating heading to greener pastures. She says many Māori and Pasifika public servants will cash up and head to Australia – where they will be welcomed with open arms."

https://cdn.nzedge.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/brain_drain24Dec13.jpg

[causecelebre]

Wonderful news to read - prediction that many Maori & Pacific Islander civil servants will take redundancy and head across to Australia!

More's the merrier!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/public-service-cull-its-not-only-new-zealand-police-eyeing-lucrative-jobs-across-the-ditch/SCZ4NDQDYRA45LA3V2T4JNZQBM/

"The Māori arm of the Public Service Association says the Government’s decision to axe as many as 7500 civil servants means irreplaceable skills and cultural expertise will ultimately be lost across the Tasman and they will join dozens of New Zealand police officers already contemplating heading to greener pastures. She says many Māori and Pasifika public servants will cash up and head to Australia – where they will be welcomed with open arms."

https://cdn.nzedge.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/brain_drain24Dec13.jpg

Not quite sure how Maori cultural expertise will be useful in Australia. Perhaps they can team up with the local indigenous people in calls against colonisation. Oh wait, they already had a referendum about that...

[Balance]

Not quite sure how Maori cultural expertise will be useful in Australia. Perhaps they can team up with the local indigenous people in calls against colonisation. Oh wait, they already had a referendum about that...

They are expecting an exodus of Maori & Pacific Islanders to Australia to escape from this 'whitey' government? :D

[Getty]

Can anyone explain how, if Fair Go is unviable broadcast to a mass audience, it would be viable in digital only form?

Perhaps simply cutting back on the 68 staff reported to make it, would be the savior?

Bill Hohepa's programmes as shown on Face TV have only himself and his wife making them.

They may not be slick, but are very watchable, and worthy of inclusion in any historical archive.

[causecelebre]

They are expecting an exodus of Maori & Pacific Islanders to Australia to escape from this 'whitey' government? :D

....and then run head first into Pauline Hanson

[mistaTea]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/514021/ombudsman-decries-lack-of-change-in-prisons-since-covid-19

Another gift from Cindy for Luxon to deal with…

[nztx]

Wonderful news to read - prediction that many Maori & Pacific Islander civil servants will take redundancy and head across to Australia!

More's the merrier!

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/public-service-cull-its-not-only-new-zealand-police-eyeing-lucrative-jobs-across-the-ditch/SCZ4NDQDYRA45LA3V2T4JNZQBM/

"The Māori arm of the Public Service Association says the Government’s decision to axe as many as 7500 civil servants means irreplaceable skills and cultural expertise will ultimately be lost across the Tasman and they will join dozens of New Zealand police officers already contemplating heading to greener pastures. She says many Māori and Pasifika public servants will cash up and head to Australia – where they will be welcomed with open arms."

https://cdn.nzedge.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/brain_drain24Dec13.jpg


Can our Govt pay their fares over there so they can assemble & ask the Aussie Govt to set up a gravy train
like what they dreamed they had here, or too hard ? ;)

At least that way the Aborigine contingent will have some mates to duplicate the same scheme with :)

One way of sorting out the problem & finding a new home in new promised land for all 7500 lost wanderers who run away from downsized Kiwi Public Service ;)

If they were so irreplaceable here, then why no previous word on them coming on board or being around ?

How much did this self entitled mob extract from the coffers each & every year to keep them luxury on the taxpayer's t^t ? :)

[Getty]

A day in the life of Paddy Gower, Corrections Officer.

Hey Paddy, can you;

Bring in some drugs?
Money?
Booze?
Porn?
Shanks?
Pistols?
Knuckle dusters?
Cellphones ?
Fat to cook with?
Extend my phone time?
Visit time?

Paddy: Get stuffed!

Top recruit that Paddy!

[Bjauck]

They are expecting an exodus of Maori & Pacific Islanders to Australia to escape from this 'whitey' government? :D You are happy when any people go to Australia from NZ.

[Panda-NZ-]

Being young they're mainly greens and labour minded voters so we'll be left with this coalition forever.

[Joshuatree]

It's like Luxon is treating NZ as a Jetstar flight,and us citizens as expendable passengers,treated like poh ,and lousy service,with a few entitiled racists in first class and wearing parachutes

[jonu]

It's like Luxon is treating NZ as a Jetstar flight,and us citizens as expendable passengers,treated like poh ,and lousy service,with a few entitiled racists in first class and wearing parachutes

That's perhaps the best description I've heard of the Ardern/Hipkins regime. The parachute rip cords didn't take long to be pulled. Ardern off to her Harvard security blanket. Robertson to a pay rise at Otago uni (go figure). Davis, Mahuta, Faafoi, Wood. Racist, divisive and entitled everyone of them. Problem for them is that they are a few parachutes short.

[dobby41]

That's perhaps the best description I've heard of the Ardern/Hipkins regime. The parachute rip cords didn't take long to be pulled. Ardern off to her Harvard security blanket. Robertson to a pay rise at Otago uni (go figure). Davis, Mahuta, Faafoi, Wood. Racist, divisive and entitled everyone of them. Problem for them is that they are a few parachutes short.

It seems that a few parachutes have been used for the National Party faithful to keep earning well.
Quite the gravy train from National.

[Joshuatree]

Lol
This Cannibal Collective treating NZ like a ruthless business model is divisive inhumane destructionAll volunteers who hold this country together should go on strike..

[dobby41]

So allowing landlords to kick out tenants at will will solve the rental situation and is good for tenants?
How out of touch can Bishop be?
The fundamental issue is the lack of houses.
If LLs were to build new accommodation I'd have some sympathy but all they do is recycle the existing.
A LL purchasing a house instead of the 1st home buyer just means the 1st home buyer has to rent.
Personally, all of the houses I own were built by me - adding to the supply rather than just rearranging it.
The Govt seems to have no idea how the rental market works - once a rent is established (the ability to pay) it is unlikely that it would go down if costs were reduced.

Melissa sums it up for the whole Govt.
15032

[Joshuatree]

That's perhaps the best description I've heard of the Ardern/Hipkins regime. The parachute rip cords didn't take long to be pulled. Ardern off to her Harvard security blanket. Robertson to a pay rise at Otago uni (go figure). Davis, Mahuta, Faafoi, Wood. Racist, divisive and entitled everyone of them. Problem for them is that they are a few parachutes short.

Think you've been in a dank hole in the ground too long,bud,pull it out occasionally and get some reality and take a breath ,2secs in thru nose,hold 4 secs ,breathe out 2 secs through mouth

[iceman]

So allowing landlords to kick out tenants at will will solve the rental situation and is good for tenants?
How out of touch can Bishop be?
The fundamental issue is the lack of houses.
If LLs were to build new accommodation I'd have some sympathy but all they do is recycle the existing.
A LL purchasing a house instead of the 1st home buyer just means the 1st home buyer has to rent.
Personally, all of the houses I own were built by me - adding to the supply rather than just rearranging it.
The Govt seems to have no idea how the rental market works - once a rent is established (the ability to pay) it is unlikely that it would go down if costs were reduced.

Melissa sums it up for the whole Govt.
15032

The new legislation does no such thing as "allowing landlords to kick out tenants at will". Landlords will have to give 42 days notice and tenants only have to give landlords 21 days notice.. The previous legislation was nuts, giving all power to tenants and allowing unruly tenants to behave however they wanted. That has now changed and not before time.
For most landlords and tenants, this change will make no difference at all as they have had a long term good relationship which is likely to continue.